Jump to content

The Unholy Consult post-release SPOILER thread III


kuenjato

Recommended Posts

18 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

You know you'd think with all the sexism talk he would come up with a better analogy.

Hah, why would you think that? 

 

31 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

 

I don't think Bakker gets this, he's the guy going around after saying, "were you surprised? it was so great when we yelled it. Your face. can I yell it again? SURPRISE! so great! you are the birthday boy right?, oh whoops, sorry, you just looked like him from behind, that's him over there." walks toward other person, "were you surprised? it was so great when we yelled..." 

 

It's a twist!
https://twitter.com/PhaseZerosum/status/886038217467637760

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Well, maybe. The circumfix is definitely the first time Kellhus is aware (though he associated it with God, which seems wrong now). But on the punish the Shrial knights part - he was surprised about that and about its efficacy. He didn't know Sarcellus was a skinspy at that moment, IIRC. He hadn't seen him yet. He was actually confused why he said it, and it freaked him out a little bit. 

Another way to say it is this: if you believe that Bakker plotted this stuff out, one interesting thing to do is to go back and look at every single instance of Kellhus reacting in a non-Dunyain fashion and attribute it to Ajokli. From his pity of Cnaiur and saving Cnaiur (doesn't that seem to be interesting now?) to his reaction to Serwe's death to his sparing of Akka to his rescuing Esme - I'm sure there are so many more.

He's surprised by how well it works, but he definitely knew that Sar was a skin spy. I checked my hardback copy  just to be sure (pg 88) -- they come to the fire, Kellhus notes the "missing face" and contemplates if this is a "Consult probe", then Saubron leads him aside.

All that other stuff is interesting. But when would Ajokli have had the chance? When would Kellhus have come onto his radar?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

All that other stuff is interesting. But when would Ajokli have had the chance? When would Kellhus have come onto his radar?

Well, Bakker's response is that what comes after determines what comes before. Kellhus is on Ajokli's radar because he is destined to overtake him, which means he needs to lead him to that point, which means that Ajokli is always aware of him. 

But if there is an actual cause-effect chain, I'd say it is when Kellhus finds Cnaiur and convinces everyone that he's a random prince and that he and Cnaiur should lead the Holy War. This is one of the most monumental lies in the history of the world, and people actually buy it. That would appeal to Ajokli. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/8/2017 at 7:17 AM, generic said:
  • Why did Kel really go back to get Esmi? Why does turning into the god of hate make you miss your wife???

Because he needed Kelmomas and Esmenet at Golgotterath and he also needed an explanation for why Kellhus did not kill Kelmomas years ago, and this is the best reverse engineered bullshit he could come up with. 

In other words, this development was purely utilitarian and does not make any sense. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/8/2017 at 10:33 AM, Happy Ent said:

Will GRRM’s epic fantasy finish before Bakker’s?

For many years, this was no longer an interesting question. Clearly, Kellhus would destroy the Unholy Consult before the Stark children with their magical direwolves would finally confront the Others, or even Tyrion get his next travelogue chapter published. 

Now Bakker just made it interesting again.

No way. We're talking about someone who:

  1. Published the last book in his series more than six years ago. 
  2. Originally thought his next book would be released in early 2015.
  3. Then in the spring of 2015, he thought he could finish the book by late summer.
  4. Then when late summer came around, he though he could finish it by the end of 2015.
  5. Then in the beginning of 2016, he thought he was just "months" away.
  6. Now we're hearing that 2017 is not happening and that 2018 is doubtful. 

To be perfectly honest, we're probably getting The No-God: Book 1 before we get The Winds of Winter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/8/2017 at 2:57 PM, Kalbear said:

Which makes the final scene in the Golden Room kind of funny - it's the Dunyain controlled by Shae talking to the Dunyain controlled by Ajokli, and neither group knows they're being controlled and neither group thinks the other is being controlled. 

I know this is petty but I cannot help but enjoy this within the context of how most readers, not including myself, have regarded the Dunyain up until Scott's AMA. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to get to far off topic but the last interview I saw with GRRM implied it could still make it this year and that 2018 seems extremely likely if it doesn't. I mean I'm sure it will keep being pushed back anyways but I didn't see anything that said 2018 was doubtful. I kind of doubt we'll see NoGod 1 first, Bakker doesn't even have a publishing contract.

Back on topic, I finally figured out what this all reminds me off: the third matrix movie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Faint said:

All Bakker's lies put together will never equal Rothfuss's big lie. 

Oh it's not the lies in either case that get me so much as their attitude. Both are arrogant son of bitches who refuse to acknowledge any flaws in their writing and can't take criticism at all. Bakker at least wrote his books. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Galbrod said:

Forgive me if the following text is a bit confused, I'm still processing my thoughts about the varius narratives of the series...

It will certainly be interesting to go back and re-interprete previous text in PoN. One of the practical problems I have with doing this is that I feel that there are two competing narratives concerning Kellhus in the series, both of which come to a climax in Golgotterath:

(a) one narrative concerning how the fallability of all of us (the darkness of the stuff that is closest to us such as Esmi/Kolmo) might be the downfall of even the mightiest (such as super-Kellhus), and

(b) how a calculating infallible schemer, who is capable of domination the materialistic present (Kellhus), might be taken over by an Outside entity (Ajokli).

I don't understand - why is it surprising that an even bigger infallible schemer conditioned and manipulated Kellhus?

And someone/thing might be manipulating Ajokli.

We were given inside scoop on Kellhus's manipulations over time. But that doesn't mean we were given the inside scoop on Kellhus being manipulated. Not in as direct terms, anyway.

I mean, it's just a matter of scale. If worldborn can be manipulated, why would Dunyain somehow be at absolute where no manipulation is possible of them like they manipulate the world born?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Callan S. said:

I don't understand - why is it surprising that an even bigger infallible schemer conditioned and manipulated Kellhus?

And someone/thing might be manipulating Ajokli.

We were given inside scoop on Kellhus's manipulations over time. But that doesn't mean we were given the inside scoop on Kellhus being manipulated. Not in as direct terms, anyway.

I mean, it's just a matter of scale. If worldborn can be manipulated, why would Dunyain somehow be at absolute where no manipulation is possible of them like they manipulate the world born?

I don't have a problem with a series of manipulative links in the text from individuals->Kellhus->Ajokli and beyond, but if we combine those links with the narrative of the darkness of the things that are closest to us (Esmi/Kelmo), it just makes it a bit difficult to frame what the series is actually about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Faint said:

Because he needed Kelmomas and Esmenet at Golgotterath and he also needed an explanation for why Kellhus did not kill Kelmomas years ago, and this is the best reverse engineered bullshit he could come up with. 

It does feel kind of like bullshit. I don't remember Kellhus ever feeling anything for Esmenet in his POVs in the Prince of Nothing Trilogy, nothing like the emotions that popped up when he saw Serwe get raped or strung up on the Circumfix with him. It's been twenty-odd years in the book settings since then, but still . . .

16 hours ago, Faint said:

All Bakker's lies put together will never equal Rothfuss's big lie. 

Woh, I'd totally forgotten about the latter. It's really been six years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Gotta ask - what was Rothfuss' big lie?

Before the first book came out: This series is already complete, it just has to be edited, so unlike ASOIAF, you won't have to wait years before the next book in the series comes out. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Not to get to far off topic but the last interview I saw with GRRM implied it could still make it this year and that 2018 seems extremely likely if it doesn't. I mean I'm sure it will keep being pushed back anyways but I didn't see anything that said 2018 was doubtful. I kind of doubt we'll see NoGod 1 first, Bakker doesn't even have a publishing contract.

Back on topic, I finally figured out what this all reminds me off: the third matrix movie.

Um, that's a no...

"And, yes, I know you all want to know about THE WINDS OF WINTER too. I've seen some truly weird reports about WOW on the internet of late, by 'journalists' who make their stories up out of whole cloth. I don't know which story is more absurd, the one that says the book is finished and I've been sitting on it for some nefarious reason, or the one that says I have no pages. Both 'reports' are equally false and equally moronic. I am still working on it, I am still months away (how many? good question), I still have good days and bad days, and that's all I care to say. Whether WINDS or the first volume of FIRE AND BLOOD will be the first to hit the bookstores is hard to say at this juncture, but I do think you will have a Westeros book from me in 2018... and who knows, maybe two. A boy can dream..."

Translation from GRRM bullshit into English: Maybe 2020?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Faint said:

Um, that's a no...

"And, yes, I know you all want to know about THE WINDS OF WINTER too. I've seen some truly weird reports about WOW on the internet of late, by 'journalists' who make their stories up out of whole cloth. I don't know which story is more absurd, the one that says the book is finished and I've been sitting on it for some nefarious reason, or the one that says I have no pages. Both 'reports' are equally false and equally moronic. I am still working on it, I am still months away (how many? good question), I still have good days and bad days, and that's all I care to say. Whether WINDS or the first volume of FIRE AND BLOOD will be the first to hit the bookstores is hard to say at this juncture, but I do think you will have a Westeros book from me in 2018... and who knows, maybe two. A boy can dream..."

Translation from GRRM bullshit into English: Maybe 2020?  

If that.

Which is why I would still put my money on Bakker.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...