Crackpot idea of Doran's plan

[Crona]

 

I've had this idea for a while, and I find it interesting. I know I'm probably wrong about all of this.

So, we've been told that Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne, by Doran. But, what makes him so dangerous? I believe it is a secret that he knows about Doran, and his plans. Also, we are told that the Dayne's words are considered spoilers, and that Dawn, if you are subscriber to the Dawn is the original lightbringer,  then House Dayne has vital information for the Long Night.  I believe that these two correlate, and that Dorian's original master plan had to do with the Long Night. 

The Sword of the Morning is a title given to someone who holds Dawn (original lightbringer), I believe that the Sword of the Morning would have information for the upcoming Long Night and the White Walkers. House Dayne may have known that the White Walkers are coming back, and knew the information to stop the White Walkers. However, the problem is that not many in Westeros would know of the White Walkers nor are prepared for it. However, my belief is that they knew the dragons, dragonglass, and valyrian steel are essential to stop the White Walkers. At the time Arthur Dayne was the Sword of the Morning and they informed Doran (who seems to be on good terms with Daynes) of the White Walkers and they hatched a plan to stop them. The key was to get the Targaryans to produce dragons and  the Martells to have control of the Targaryan family.

This was the reason they pushed for Elia to marry Rheagar, so that her children will have Martell blood and loyalty to the Martells, and they sent Arthur to the Kingsguard to recruit Rheagar to believe the White Walkers.  I believe that Darkstar was the squire of Arthur and was being groomed to be a stand in for Arthur if he was to ever die. He may even been the messenger between the Martells and Arthur. While, Arthur was able to have Rheagar believe in the White Walkers, and he may even recruited Oswell Whent, they believed that Rheagar was the Targaryen they needed to lead against White Walkers.

However, their plans were stopped when Elia could not have another child. Rheagar still believed he needed a third child. However, due to the events of Harenhall, the Martells believed that Rheagar was not actually the best Targaryen to have against the White Walker. They wanted him to over throw his father, and go on with just two children. But, Rheagar wanted to have a third child and was fascinated by Lyanna. Doran did not like this and they began to believe that Rheagar could not be controlled.  So, they ordered the overthrow of the Targaryen Dynasty, and were planning to take the Targaryen children and raise them to be loyal to Martell.

When Lyanna ran off to with Rheagar, Arthur was there and stopped the communication of Lyanna to her family, making it seem like a kidnapping. And knowing that the Starks would question the Mad King, it would kickstart a war. When Doran learned that Lyanna was pregnant, he chose the Tower of Joy and was planning to take Jon. They planned to have Arthur kill Rheagar and take Jon. And this is why Arthur was sad while he was talking to Ned, because he really did like Rheagar as a friend, but ultimately knew he was going to kill him. But, the plan failed and Arthur died, Jon was taken by Ned. Doran could have been angry at Darkstar for not taking Jon when he had the chance, and blacklisted him.

They planned to rescue Elia and her children, but were too late. This may have pushed Doran to change the plan into avenging Elia instead of the White Walkers near the end. However, Varys did come to him with Aegon and informed him that he was only able to save his nephew. Doran believing that it is his nephew sent him across the Narrow Sea to keep him safe, and sent his wife (Septa Lemore) with him to groom him. He may even got a hold of Dany and raised her temporarily in Lemonwood, but believed that its too dangerous, and sent her Essos. This would also play into the contract with Viserys and Arrianne. 

And this is what Darkstar knows about Doran, that he and the Daynes overthrew the Tagaryans and if Dany or Aegon were to know this then their alliances would be severed. 

I know that I took a lot of liberties and assumptions here, its just an idea that I was interesting.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Interesting ideas here.

I have trouble with some of the details. For example, you don't send someone to the Kingsguard. Up until Robert's reign they didn't just take anybody, and there had to be an opening on the team. I don't see why House Dayne would have held on to knowledge even the Starks have forgotten. Having Dawn doesn't necessarily mean they know how to defeat the Others. They could just be caretakers, and Dawn could be the original Ice that the Starks "lost" ages ago. Or it could be the sword of the Great Other. IF  you beat the Others, and took their magic sword, you'd place it as far from the north as possible, wouldn't you? I mean if the Others get as far as Starfall, it's game over anyway.

I also don't remember anything about the Martells pushing for Rhaegar and Elia's marriage. Their mother wanted Elia and Jaime to marry the Lannister twins up until Tywin refused. 

Why would someone who knows the Long Night is coming jeopardize the lives of the entire country by starting a war? Elia's marital issues would seem rather small compared to mass murder by ice zombies. And Doran doesn't seem to know a thing about what's going on north of the Wall. It seems odd to me that he'd be focusing on revenge in this way when he could be doing something more subtle like trying to get the Lannisters north of the Wall so the Others will take them out for him.

There's definitely something going on with House Dayne though. And it's been suggested before that Gerold was Arthur's squire, so on that there's good reason to speculate.

This is a fun crackpot. 

[Crona]

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Interesting ideas here.

I have trouble with some of the details. For example, you don't send someone to the Kingsguard. Up until Robert's reign they didn't just take anybody, and there had to be an opening on the team. I don't see why House Dayne would have held on to knowledge even the Starks have forgotten. Having Dawn doesn't necessarily mean they know how to defeat the Others. They could just be caretakers, and Dawn could be the original Ice that the Starks "lost" ages ago. Or it could be the sword of the Great Other. IF  you beat the Others, and took their magic sword, you'd place it as far from the north as possible, wouldn't you? I mean if the Others get as far as Starfall, it's game over anyway.

I also don't remember anything about the Martells pushing for Rhaegar and Elia's marriage. Their mother wanted Elia and Jaime to marry the Lannister twins up until Tywin refused. 

Why would someone who knows the Long Night is coming jeopardize the lives of the entire country by starting a war? Elia's marital issues would seem rather small compared to mass murder by ice zombies. And Doran doesn't seem to know a thing about what's going on north of the Wall. It seems odd to me that he'd be focusing on revenge in this way when he could be doing something more subtle like trying to get the Lannisters north of the Wall so the Others will take them out for him.

There's definitely something going on with House Dayne though. And it's been suggested before that Gerold was Arthur's squire, so on that there's good reason to speculate.

This is a fun crackpot. 

Thank you so much for replying! This thread is mostly about speculation as I really don't have much knowledge. So, any input is appreciated.

There are a lot of holes in the idea here and there are a lot of valid questions. My assumption is that indeed the Daynes have some knowledge of the Long Night, and you are right it makes sense for Dawn (lightbringer) to be kept as far away from the North so it could be used when the time comes. My question is that how much Arthur knows about Dawn's purpose, and what does the responsibilities of being the Sword of the Morning entails. However, like the North they may have forgotten the purpose and may know nothing. And your right, about selecting members of the Kingsguard, there should be an opening, my asumption is that there was an opening and they took it then instructed Arthur what to do.

My idea was that they were not trying to over throw the Targaryans initially, only to have a Martell member be in the Royalty so they would have a sympathetic ear to the Long Night, as they would be able to rally the Kingdoms against the White Walkers and may produce dragons. But, as events happened their plans became muddy and started to over throw the Targaryans. However, with the initial push to have Elia marry Jaime, it could have been that idea was hatched after the bethrothel was denied (I know it's kind of a stretch).

Also, the fact that Doran doesn't seem to know about the Night Long seems like a big hole that I don't know how to fill. Only thing I could say we have to see what Doran master plan really is lol. Basically, i am saying that Doran was not fine with Rheagar putting Elia aside for Lyanna and therefore seen him untrustworthy to lead against the White Walkers and only wanted Jon because he would still be a targ heir that he could mold.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

@Crona... I enjoyed reading this more than Quentyn's chapters and it made more sense that Arianne's, so I guess there is that lol

[Lady Blizzardborn]

11 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

<snip

Darkstar made clear he has no interest in fighting against the long night, or for the dawn.  When asked if he was the Sword of the Morning, he made his allegiance clear.  He is "of the night".

<snip

Darkstar hasn't made anything clear. Saying he is "of the night" was separating himself from cousin Arthur and the whole goody-goody image of the Daynes of Starfall, partly since he's not a Dayne of Starfall. Honestly that whole exchange with Myrcella reminds me of Jan in The Brady Bunch "It's always Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!" Change Marcia to Arthur and you've got the same thing. The guy probably knows nothing about the Long Night, so he wouldn't have even thought about allegiance. He wasn't necessarily being serious when he said he was "of the night."

@Crona what we know about the Sword of the Morning is that the title, and the sword Dawn, are only given to a member of House Dayne who the members of the House deem worthy. You've apparently got to be a top-notch warrior to get the sword and title, as Arthur was. There was a King Vorian Dayne who was called the Sword of the Evening--Queen Nymeria sent him to the Wall in chains, along with a bunch of other Dornish kings. House Dayne also claims to be one of the oldest families in Westeros, going back 10,000 years. Only one other house claims to be that old, and it's one of the lesser Vale houses of presumably no particular importance. Even House Stark only claims to be 8,000 years old. The Daynes also say that Dawn was forged from the heart of a fallen star, which may or may not be true, but it's clear that Dawn is the only sword of its kind in Westeros. GRRM has given us just enough about the Daynes, just often enough, and kept just enough back, that many of us are anxiously awaiting the info that tells us what is so important about them. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

13 hours ago, Crona said:

Thank you so much for replying! This thread is mostly about speculation as I really don't have much knowledge. So, any input is appreciated.

<snip

You're welcome. I'm happy to discuss any and all aspects of the books. I just wish some of my family members would hurry up and finish reading the available ones so I could have discussions and debates with them too.

I think you can strengthen your theory if you can find more evidence of a specific connection between House Martell and House Dayne. There is the fact that Ser Lewyn Martell was on the KG with Arthur. Maybe you can also factor in that all living Targaryens have Martell blood, and all living Martells have Targaryen blood as well. It's an old connection, but it is still there, and per Doran's last sentence that we read he seems to consider himself at least part Targaryen.

[TurkJedi]

Dorne bending the knee without losing the war might be a step for getting closer to the Targaryens, makes sense. By the way Rhaegar chose Tower of Joy, not Doran Martell and Rhaegar was already dead during the Tower of Joy events, so these parts are quite wrong.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.

Seems to me the OP's theory derives from the idea that the Daynes are warriors for the "Dawn", and against the "Long Night", symbolizing the dark forces that threaten to destroy humanity.  This in turn derives from the symbolism of the name "Dawn" (the Dayne sword) and "The Sword of the Morning" (its wielder).  This gets some help from the reputation of the Swords of the Morning (including Arthur) as good guys and not bad guys.

Without this symbolism, there is no basis for the OP's speculations.  He might as well have asked the same question about Hot Pie, or any other random character.

But when asked if he is the Sword of the Morning, Darkstar does not merely say "no"; or "I'm not worthy".  He says (if we adopt the symbolism) that he is on the other team.  

And then, shortly afterwards, he murders a child with a poison blade, proving indeed that he is on the side of the Devils, and not on the side of the Angels.  So, this is hardly just a "Marsha Marsha Marsha" tantrum.  He really does mean what the words imply, as long as you don't take them hyper-literally.

We need not take take them hyper-literally.  I was not literally suggesting that Hitler, Cthulhu, Stalin, and the Great Other got together with Darkstar in the same room to plot the destruction of humanity.   Similarly, if I say that Darkstar has clearly shown himself to be a devil, don't ask me to show you his literal horns and hooves.  He's a devil, nonetheless.

BTW, there is no clear indication that a Dayne of High Hermitage (nor perhaps even a non-Dayne) would be ineligible to wield Dawn.  The main problem with Darkstar is that he is a villain.

Darkstar is not declaring allegiance. He's being flippant and deflecting the question, something there is no need to do unless he's bothered by the question. His allusions to Arthur being the only Dayne anyone wants to talk about are definitely a "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia" moment. Of course he's not going to express himself exactly the same way a pre-pubescent girl would. That doesn't change the significance of his words.

Second you are assuming that Myrcella is dead, that the blade was poisoned, and that as a result he's a villain. None of which are facts in evidence. I don't even like the guy but I'm not judging him based on assumptions. 

I never said a Dayne of High Hermitage couldn't wield Dawn. Stick to what I wrote. 

[Damon_Tor]

On 8/5/2017 at 11:05 AM, Crona said:

and he may even recruited Oswell Whent

The Whents are just as steeped in mythic lore as the Daynes and Hightowers, though theirs is more obscured. Don't mistake Oswell for a follower or an accessory in all of this.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 8/7/2017 at 9:10 AM, Lew Theobald said:

Darkstar answered the question.  He does not fight for the morning.  He is of the night.   He then illustrates part of what this might mean by killing (or attempting to kill) an innocent child.

I see no resemblance between Darkstar saying "I am of the night" and Jan crying "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia".  This is a head-scratcher for me.  If Jan had cried "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia" shortly before stabbing Cindy to death, I would still see not see any connection in their words, but at least one could say Jan resembles Darkstar, in that both would be child-murderers.  But there's not even that.

Whether Marcella is dead (she is, but never mind) is obviously irrelevant to my point that Darkstar is a villain.   If Darkstar is not a child-murderer, he is an attempted child-murderer.  He is a villain either way.

That is not the question he answered. She didn't ask do you fight for the morning, or do you fight for the dawn, or do you fight for good? The men of the Night's Watch are "of the night" does that make them bad guys?

You see no resemblance partly because you are focusing on the surface, and too much on one half of one line without the context of the preceding dialogue. You are also convinced that the way things seem is the way things are. Five books into the series, you are still taking things at face value apparently. I don't know whether I should shake my head or shake your hand. 

 

Consider the following:

1. We as readers did not see anything happen to Myrcella. The POV for the scene was focused on Areo Hotah and Ser Arys Oakheart. We have gotten no first-hand information from anyone in the group who actually saw what happened either. Someone was absolutely an attempted child murderer but since we didn't see what happened, we don't know for sure who it was.

2. The George had a lookalike cousin named Rosamund Lannister go to Dorne with Myrcella. You think he'd deliberately plant a stunt double in the mix and then do nothing with her?

3. There is no reason to think the blade was poisoned unless you are convinced that Darkstar is the son of Oberyn Martell, who is the only character in the series who is specifically known for poisoning his blades. I don't actually have a problem with that idea but it requires Oberyn to have been secretly married to Darkstar's mother and not claimed the boy as his son, and there's no evidence yet to substantiate this.

 

I'm not saying Darkstar is a paragon of virtue, by the way. I'm saying we don't have all the info, and should take that into consideration. And if it turns out that he did in fact try to kill Myrcella I will agree wholeheartedly that he is a villain. It still won't convince me that he was talking about the Others or the Long Night when claimed to be "of the night" as there is nothing to indicate that he knows anything about them. And it's not likely that he's not claiming to be evil either. Most men who are evil think they are the good ones--every man is the hero of his own story. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 8/8/2017 at 10:13 PM, Lew Theobald said:

Umm ... the Night's Watch is analogous to a Storm Watch.  The Night is what they watch AGAINST.  So no, they are not "of the night" according to the metaphor.

Like I said, Myrcella is dead, and time will prove me right.  Then you can ask me how I knew.  But, in the meantime, I'm not to argue about it now because it has nothing to do with whether Darkstar is a good guy or not.  He (at the very least) TRIED to murder an innocent child.   But now, amazingly, you are questioning even that.  Good lord!   What do you think he was trying to do when he chopped half her face off?

I already clarified that I do not interpret Darkstar as literally claiming he was literally in league with the Others. 

Will do.

I'm just pointing out that this is George R. R. Martin and he deliberately did not show us what happened. Usually when he does that, he's pulling a fast one on us, on the character, or both. Someone definitely tried to kill that girl, be it Myrcella or Rosamund. But as yet we have no absolute proof it was Darkstar. There's a good chance it was Darkstar, and he did intend to kill her (in which case what a failure, couldn't even kill someone smaller than him), but there's also a chance it was someone else.

I don't like Darkstar so I don't much care either way, but I see no reason Myrcella should die without being crowned first, per the fortune Cersei got from Maggy, and I like a good twist. You have to admit if Darkstar saved the kid's life by slicing off her ear because someone else was moving in for the kill, it would be a very good twist.