[Spoilers] EP704 Discussion

[I prefer summer]

On 2017-08-06 at 9:39 PM, Holly Macaroni said:

Davos said "Forgive me if I chose to switch sides".

What does that line mean? Is he suggesting to his king, in front of a different monarch's close advisor, that he might change sides to her cause?

I think that was a joke. Made me laugh out loud. Davis is becoming a Bronn type sidekick. I guess Stannis was really holding him back from expressing his personality (although Jon isn't exactly Mr. Chuckles, either!).

[Gala]

Am I the only one who felt sorry for Tyrion. And since I despise Dothraki as a culture, I didn't like the comment that smug idiot said to Tyrion. I really hope they find out very soon what winter means. I hope the wildlings could be able to show them what fighting means. I'm not completely fond of the wildlings either, but in comparison... At least among wildling we had real personalities, not just stupid superstitious flock.
All those people who keep saying that Dany would defeat WW and thier army alone...just imagine completely unprepared southern army like Dothraki and Unsullied during winter storms. Even 3 dragons won't help. As Old Nan said "oh, my sweet summer child...what do you know of..."

Edited August 8, 2017 by Gala

[the tower of albion]

35 minutes ago, Gala said:

Am I the only one who felt sorry for Tyrion. And since I despise Dothraki as a culture, I didn't like the comment that smug idiot said to Tyrion.

I don't think Tyrion speaks Dothraki. The Dothraki will probably be shipped back to Essos once the throne is secured. Same way the wildlings will stay in the gift and around the wall, to avoid upsetting northern lords.

[Quoth]

1 hour ago, I prefer summer said:

I think that was a joke. Made me laugh out loud. Davis is becoming a Bronn type sidekick. I guess Stannis was really holding him back from expressing his personality (although Jon isn't exactly Mr. Chuckles, either!).

I agree. I took it as a joke. Davos, like Jon, and Davos is well aware of Jon's position, is rapidly realizing that titles and "sides" are meaningless and that all have to band together to defeat the WW.

 

[I prefer summer]

On 2017-08-07 at 4:49 AM, Grand Maestress said:

Jaime's sinking scene with his hands open seemed to imply to me that the thing dragging him down into the depths was his fake hand of gold. We were reminded of the hand earlier in the episode as well - when Jaime said he couldn't use the scorpion with one hand. 

Bronn jumped in with him, so I think next episode we will see Bronn unfasten the gold hand and let it sink to the depths, while rescuing Jamie. (I accept that the armor would also be quite heavy as well, but perhaps it is plot armor, are we don't have to worry about it, or Tyrion will have recognised him and will come help...)

When they get out of the water the dragon might not actually be poised to burn them. Dany is killing those that try to kill her - but those practically drowning in the water they would be defenceless. It doesn't accord with her character to just blast them the second they emerge from the water. She would hold fire. That probably gives enough time for Tyrion to recognise Bronn and Jaime (if he hasn't done already - it seemed to me like he recognised Jamie when he said 'you fucking idiot' that second time - which gives him enough time to run to the scene while Jaime is still underwater).

Jaime will be a captive again - enough time to respect Dany maybe, tell her about real the circumstances under which he killed her father. A Bronn-Tyrion reunion would also be interesting. 

What's most interesting I think will be letting the golden hand sink. Cersei gave it to Jaime - she is like the golden shackle submerging him into darkness. There has to be an arc leading Jaime away from her - maybe this will finally be its start! 

Nice symbolism. Well done!

 

On 2017-08-07 at 4:49 AM, Grand Maestress said:

Jaime's sinking scene with his hands open seemed to imply to me that the thing dragging him down into the depths was his fake hand of gold. We were reminded of the hand earlier in the episode as well - when Jaime said he couldn't use the scorpion with one hand. 

Bronn jumped in with him, so I think next episode we will see Bronn unfasten the gold hand and let it sink to the depths, while rescuing Jamie. (I accept that the armor would also be quite heavy as well, but perhaps it is plot armor, are we don't have to worry about it, or Tyrion will have recognised him and will come help...)

When they get out of the water the dragon might not actually be poised to burn them. Dany is killing those that try to kill her - but those practically drowning in the water they would be defenceless. It doesn't accord with her character to just blast them the second they emerge from the water. She would hold fire. That probably gives enough time for Tyrion to recognise Bronn and Jaime (if he hasn't done already - it seemed to me like he recognised Jamie when he said 'you fucking idiot' that second time - which gives him enough time to run to the scene while Jaime is still underwater).

Jaime will be a captive again - enough time to respect Dany maybe, tell her about real the circumstances under which he killed her father. A Bronn-Tyrion reunion would also be interesting. 

What's most interesting I think will be letting the golden hand sink. Cersei gave it to Jaime - she is like the golden shackle submerging him into darkness. There has to be an arc leading Jaime away from her - maybe this will finally be its start! 

 

[Gala]

2 hours ago, the tower of albion said:

I don't think Tyrion speaks Dothraki. The Dothraki will probably be shipped back to Essos once the throne is secured. Same way the wildlings will stay in the gift and around the wall, to avoid upsetting northern lords.

Well, I do not know whether he speaks it or not. He is a smart man, he could have learnt some Dothraki. 
Anyway, Tyrion acted as if he understood what that man said.
"Once the throne is secured" you said, so you presume that Dany won't use any soldiers against WW? I doubt that she will get IT before the Long Night and the Army of the Dead comes.

[Capo Ferro]

On 8/7/2017 at 6:02 AM, Monster_Under_the_Bed said:

 

• Arya Stark being as good of a melee fighter as Brienne is a bunch of rubbish. A fan pandering scene if I ever saw one. Brienne's sheer mass, strength, and the size of her sword would have cut through Arya like melted butter. Why couldn't they just keep Arya as a cunning, stealthy assassin, which they spent a couple of seasons' worth of painstaking character build up to establish? :facepalm:

 

I don't get this because we did see quite a lot of Arya training for single combat (not sure where a melee comes into it) -- mostly with a staff but presumably she's been plugging away at other things. 

And the criticisms based on the differences in their respective sizes are overstated.  While strength and size are certainly advantages, a sword isn't just a cutting edge and point, it's a lever and Brienne is on the wrong side of it.   To those of you who can't get past the size difference I suggest you conduct an experiment.  Get a long wooden pointer  -- or better yet an appropriately sized piece of rebar -- something with weight as well as length.  Hold it by one end as though it were a sword and ask a small child to try to move the tip around while you do your best to resist that.  It will not be easy. Arya's job, when parrying Brienne, is to simply deflect Brienne's blade enough so that it will move past Arya not through her.  If she parries close to the tip of Brienne's blade (the foible it's called) especially if she takes it with the lower part of her own blade (the forte) she has significant mechanical advantage that mitigates the strength difference.   She can also try to time parries so Brienne won't be able to use the full strength of her body where Arya can and, of course, she can try to be where Brienne's blade is not. 

Strength and size count but speed and superior technique count for more. And it's probably fair to say that Brienne has spent her life training for, and in combat with, larger opponents who use long and heavy swords. The bout would have been somewhat more plausible if Arya had used her dagger in the off hand but the whole thing isn't quite so ludicrous as people are suggesting.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Capo Ferro

[Capo Ferro]

2 hours ago, Quoth said:

I agree. I took it as a joke. Davos, like Jon, and Davos is well aware of Jon's position, is rapidly realizing that titles and "sides" are meaningless and that all have to band together to defeat the WW.

 

 

A problem with Jon's position that has not been touched on in the show yet and I wonder if it ever will be though I think it should be is that Jon represents a lot of people who flat out do not accept royal rule.  When does Daeneyrs's "bend the knee" absolutism clash with the Wildlings "never kneel" lives.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

My thoughts...

I've missed Bronn! Hope he's not about to die. Maybe he'll switch allegiances to Team Tyrion again.

Awesome, awesome dragon and Dothraki action. Field of flames #2.  That noise the dragons make before the flames come gives me chills every time! 

Are the Tarleys dead and why has Randyl Tarley made no mention whatsoever of Sam stealing his VS Sword? 

More great comedy and timing from Davos; he's so much better than book Davos. I think he is seriously considering retirement in Naath when this is all over.

Loved all the astronomical symbols in the caves and immediately thought "please let @LmL do something on this! (Which he's now said he will - hurrah!)

Is that the last we'll see of Meera? Was there a double meaning in how crap it is that she's just leaving without so much as a party bag after everything she's done (leaving Winterfell / leaving the show). I get that her and Jojen's mission was just to get Bran to the 3eR/3eC but I hope we see her again, preferably along with her dad.

"Chaos is a ladder" was great! LFs face! 

Loved all things Arya.  Team Stark remainers are almost all together!  Yay!  Arya vs Brienne made me think about how people underestimate Brienne all the time (like Jaime did) and now she's done the same with Arya. I agree with some that a skinny blade swung one-handed probably couldn't stop a large one swung 2-handed by a much stronger person, but I'm sure Brienne was going easy on her for most of it.  It didn't make it any less enjoyable for me. Arya's training may not have been years-long, but it was seriously intensive. Nobody blinded Brienne or beat her with a big stick all day until she got better. Plus Arya uses her size and speed to her advantage and whatever faceless mind-zen stuff 'no-one' taught her.

Was Sansa looking sad watching Arya fighting because she realised she has no way to defend herself apart from with other people? Maybe she'll ask Arya for some training. LF looks increasingly worried by the Stark kids. I reckon his next move is to try to get on team Targ. Hopefully Varys and/or Tyrion will nip that in the bud. I don't see LF dying... he's like the cockroach after the nuclear war...

Why did Bran give away the dagger when he knows it can kill white walkers? Is it because he knows arya will need valyrian steel to defend herself? Is he able to overcome white walkers some other way?

Tyrion's sad face during the battle. I assumed it's because he was sad/worried for Jaime, but after seeing next week's trailer it seems it is also because he doesn't agree with what Dany is doing. 

When Jamie went in the water I thought - please don't resurrect him as Jamie Stoneheart, that would be dreadful. I don't think they will but who knows?  I hope he is rescued, captured and gets to have an overdue chat with Tyrion. 

Jon & Dany - looking very likely that a marriage is going to be proposed by someone. I wonder if they'll find out before or afterwards that she's his aunt? Looking forward to that revelation! Maybe it will actually make her see him as an equal and stop asking him to bend the F-ing knee!

and lastly... with high-profile characters not needed for the endgame being killed off at a steady rate, it's clear that Theon still has a part to play, but what?

Edited August 8, 2017 by Lady Fishbiscuit
Typos

[Lord Godric]

22 hours ago, hallam said:

I am genuinely uncertain as to whether Jamie is alive or not. It seems most likely to me that he is dead. This was the shortest episode they have done. If Jamie was coming back, they would show him captured. Another thing that makes me think he is dead is Tyrion's line, 'you stupid bastard'. Charging a wounded dragon armed only with a spear is really stupid.

Having him survive two near death experiences and die in a third along with Bron trying to save him does seem like a suitable exit for him. It also means Cersei has gained the iron throne at the cost of everything she ever cared about. Her husband, children and entire family are dead except for Tyrion who is trying to kill her after she tried to kill him. 

Of course he is alive. What would even be the point of having him saved by Bronn like that if it wasn't to kill him. If they wanted him dead they could have had Drogon bite his head off or turn him into a pile of ashes. The fact that it is left ambiguous means that he is alive. There is no question about it. They wouldn't avoid a gruesome, cruel death like that for Jaime to have him slowly drown between episodes. 

[hallam]

19 hours ago, nara said:

I'm not sure why you interpreted my comment as complaining about acting, but it was not about that. It was about the character Bran becoming emotionless. I believe we can all agree on that, right? 

I was agreeing with you and commenting on the dozen previous comments about bad acting.

Its like the refusal to accept the idea that St Stannis would never burn Shireen. I thought that was going to happen to her before they left Dragonstone. GRRM foreshadowed it with the burning of the idols of the seven. I read the books before Shireen even appeared in the HBO story. 

4 hours ago, I prefer summer said:

I think that was a joke. Made me laugh out loud. Davis is becoming a Bronn type sidekick. I guess Stannis was really holding him back from expressing his personality (although Jon isn't exactly Mr. Chuckles, either!).

I thought it was part joke and part a suggestion that maybe Missandrei was overselling her Queen.

[Lord Godric]

9 minutes ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

My thoughts...

I've missed Bron! Hope he's not about to die. Maybe he'll switch allegiances to Team Tyrion again.

 

Bronn is only in it for the gold. He's a horrible human being (although an interesting character), and if Tyrion can offer more money than the Lannisters he'll switch. If not, he won't. That being said, I am not happy that he survived this episode because that was a helluva lot plot armor he had on during that battle. 

[hallam]

3 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

Of course he is alive. What would even be the point of having him saved by Bronn like that if it wasn't to kill him. If they wanted him dead they could have had Drogon bite his head off or turn him into a pile of ashes. The fact that it is left ambiguous means that he is alive. There is no question about it. They wouldn't avoid a gruesome, cruel death like that for Jaime to have him slowly drown between episodes. 

The point of having him drown was that is exactly what happened to Tyrion when he organized the defense of Kings Landing. Having him saved from dragon fire and then drown anyway is exactly the sort of thing D&D would do.

If Jamie survives and is captured, Danny might be a little too powerful. Kill him off and Cersei becomes the mad Queen - just like her father.

[Lord Godric]

3 minutes ago, hallam said:

The point of having him drown was that is exactly what happened to Tyrion when he organized the defense of Kings Landing. Having him saved from dragon fire and then drown anyway is exactly the sort of thing D&D would do.

If Jamie survives and is captured, Danny might be a little too powerful. Kill him off and Cersei becomes the mad Queen - just like her father.

But Tyrion didn't die either. And, no this isn't the type of thing D&D have ever done. The show has rarely shied away from showing deaths, the one time they did with Stannis and people thought he was alive for two years. If Jaime were dead, we would have seen him die. We didn't, so he isn't. 

[Illiterati]

42 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

But Tyrion didn't die either. And, no this isn't the type of thing D&D have ever done. The show has rarely shied away from showing deaths, the one time they did with Stannis and people thought he was alive for two years. If Jaime were dead, we would have seen him die. We didn't, so he isn't. 

 

Good to hear.  So Olenna is alive and well!!!

[Lord Godric]

12 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

 

Good to hear.  So Olenna is alive and well!!!

There was no ambiguity with Olenna's death. She gulps down poison. It's quite different from charging at a dragon and then being knocked out of the way (although I would argue there's no ambiguity here either, it's just unambiguous in the opposite way). If they wanted it to be a true cliffhanger leave it where Drogon looks over before he breathes fire. Leave it with Jaime raising the spear. But no, they purposely show you that Jaime does not get hit by fire, and does not get eaten by Drogon. He gets pushed out of the way at the very last second. That's clear. 

Whats further, if you can't tell from the obvious construction of the scene, then a basic understanding of how storytelling works should clue you in. Jaime's story isn't going to end there. There are far too many loose ends to tie up. 

The whole scene was stupid and shouldn't have been put in at all. Because it is obvious that Jaime and Bronn have some heavy plot armor in that scene and it's sloppy, and so unlike the first few seasons of the show when they have Martin's work as a guide. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Lord Godric

[Capo Ferro]

20 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

 

Whats further, if you can't tell from the obvious construction of the scene, then a basic understanding of how storytelling works should clue you in. Jaime's story isn't going to end there. There are far too many loose ends to tie up. 

 

Agreed.  Not least because it seems likely, given where the show has been and where it's pointing, that Jamie needs to live to kill Cersei.

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

Anyone else think that they need to replace Jamie's gold hand with one made of dragonglass.  That way he could be the one to kill the Night King by punching him in the heart with his new hand.

[darmody]

2 hours ago, Capo Ferro said:

 

I don't get this because we did see quite a lot of Arya training for single combat (not sure where a melee comes into it) -- mostly with a staff but presumably she's been plugging away at other things. 

And the criticisms based on the differences in their respective sizes are overstated.  While strength and size are certainly advantages, a sword isn't just a cutting edge and point, it's a lever and Brienne is on the wrong side of it.   To those of you who can't get past the size difference I suggest you conduct an experiment.  Get a long wooden pointer  -- or better yet an appropriately sized piece of rebar -- something with weight as well as length.  Hold it by one end as though it were a sword and ask a small child to try to move the tip around while you do your best to resist that.  It will not be easy. Arya's job, when parrying Brienne, is to simply deflect Brienne's blade enough so that it will move past Arya not through her.  If she parries close to the tip of Brienne's blade (the foible it's called) especially if she takes it with the lower part of her own blade (the forte) she has significant mechanical advantage that mitigates the strength difference.   She can also try to time parries so Brienne won't be able to use the full strength of her body where Arya can and, of course, she can try to be where Brienne's blade is not. 

Strength and size count but speed and superior technique count for more. And it's probably fair to say that Brienne has spent her life training for, and in combat with, larger opponents who use long and heavy swords. The bout would have been somewhat more plausible if Arya had used her dagger in the off hand but the whole thing isn't quite so ludicrous as people are suggesting.

You may have a point if Arya used superior speed and technique--sorta like the Viper, only he had a long weapon and the strength of a full-grown man, in addition to fighting experience--but she didn't. She didn't place herself where Brienne's sword wasn't, and she didn't deflect Brienne's sword just enough so that it missed her. She was fighting straight up, toe-to-toe and deflecting blows that should've knocked that little toothpick out of her hands. 

As for mechanical advantage mitigating strength difference, I must admit it's theoretically possible for Arya to so arrange her hits. Let's assume she had tried, instead of what she actually did. Still, the odds that a little kid with a fencing sword could pile up a series of such blows against an opponent who's not only stronger with a heavier sword, but also more experienced and shown to be the greatest swordsperson on the show,* are prohibitively long. 

Not to mention the fact that Brienne is wearing armor and is a foot taller. How does she allow Arya near her head or neck with that itty-bitty sword? Brienne could spend the whole fight keeping Arya a mile away from her and/or allowing blows to bounce off her harmlessly. Arya wasn't depicted as ninja-ing her way in, but rather was executing conventional dueling moves. Once, Brienne kicked her down. That is pretty much how every single engagement should start and end. 

I might have thought, without knowing anything else about the characters, that Brienne lacked the upper-body strength to properly use her equipment. But they had her win a fistfight against the Hound, who looks like he should be able to cave in a man's skull with a single blow. Also a ridiculous scene, without them informing us that Brienne has magical grrl power. But I can accept it as just the way it is. This past episode, however, did not show us Arya as she had been set-up before. This season she's Super Arya for no reason. 

*No one has matched beating Loras, Larry, and the Hound, as well as a whole pack of Boltons. Arya's dancing teacher bragged about his skills and we saw a bit of them, but not enough to judge. The Sword of the Morning was impressive, but we don't know how good the other guys were, except Ned, who was losing to Larry before he got stabbed in Season One. Jon got bested by some Flea Bottom cutthroat. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by darmody

[darmody]

On 8/7/2017 at 11:22 AM, Ser Sinister said:

Assuming any of the dragons survives (and with them turning the Lannister faction into the GoT equivalent of Alexander the Great, that's not a given), but what chance do White Walkers have against a dragon? They're a completely ground-based army. Granted, we haven't seen any of their magic capabilities, other than creating an undead army, but is there anything that would lead us to believe they have some sort of dragon-freezing magic? Is that why the show is making Dany so adamant against helping Jon Snow? Because it would be pretty much "fly 3 dragons...burn entire army of White Walkers...be home for dinner"?

Or??? Do they have undead dragons?!?!? How awesome would that be???

My guess, based on how dragon-obsessed this show is (to the detriment of the wolf storyline and the much more important white walker storyline), there's absolutely going to be a zombie dragon. Maybe one of Dany's. It will breath ice. 

 

Iron bank on it!