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3 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Wife of John wouldn't be Lady Stark.  She already learned in Crossroads that Jon SNOW is KitN.

It remains that Rickon could have married.  Bran is still too young, no?

Richon is even younger than Bran, so no.

Arya could just assume that Jon has taken up Stark name and got married. That is a possibility, but anyway, I personally think that she just didn't know that Sansa was alive and in Winterfell that's why she asked "which Lady Stark". Or else it is absolutely meaningless scene - bad writing

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6 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

 

Arya took Brienne by surprise early in the fight. By the time Arya was kicked to the ground, obviously Brienne wasn't worried about lightly hurting her.

 Then the duel ends in a draw, with no indication Brienne let it happen. 

Edited by darmody
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3 hours ago, Gala said:

Richon is even younger than Bran, so no.

Arya could just assume that Jon has taken up Stark name and got married. That is a possibility, but anyway, I personally think that she just didn't know that Sansa was alive and in Winterfell that's why she asked "which Lady Stark". Or else it is absolutely meaningless scene - bad writing

She could have guessed one of her brothers was married, or if this show had extended families that it was a more distant relative. But why, when Sandra is the most obvious candidate? Why not just have her ask if it's Sandra? You get the same effect as her not knowing then hearing it's Sandra. 

That exchange of dialogue is so pointless it boggles my mind. 

Edited by darmody
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7 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

We don't have to accept it and Arya isn't exactly an underdog…

 

 

err… no. She took Brienne by surprise, and who would believe that Brienne would take the risk to hurt, even lightly, the Lady of Winterfell's sister? Brienne prefers to be ridiculed rather than risk the irreparable…

I hope it's not my poor comprehension again, but you seem to had a change of heart. Earlier you were arguing that Arya held her own against Brienne and that it's as understandable as Syrio's last stand. But now it looks like you're saying that Arya in fact didn't hold her own against Brienne, but it was Brienne who chose to expose herself to ridicule rather than hurt Arya (which pretty much makes Arya some sort of unreasonable child like Joffrey only she isn't fascinated with crossbows but with swords).

Which was it? Can you pick one, please? They are mutually exclusive so you have to choose, sorry. It doesn't matter to me which one, because both explanations are totally illogical.

@darmody already proved why your newest version doesn't make sense: it simply wasn't filmed like that. But if you insist, then please explain: if you're right, what was the point of that scene? To show that Arya is... not as good as Brienne? That Brienne can do with her as she pleases? That Arya has no idea of her own limits?

And now seriously, why is it so hard to admit that the scene was actually stupid and illogical? Why go through all the denial and engage in mental gymnastics that make no sense at all, why do all that instead of simply admitting to yourself that something D&D wrote is actually stupid?

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9 minutes ago, StepStark said:

but it was Brienne who chose to expose herself to ridicule rather than hurt Arya (which pretty much makes Arya some sort of unreasonable child like Joffrey only she isn't fascinated with crossbows but with swords).

 

Apple and orange.  Brienne is a powerful fighter, and was reasonably concerned that she would PHYSICALLY injure a person half her size.  With Joffrey, the concern was with hurting his enormous but fragile ego, and particularly with the possible real consequences of hurting his ego.

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45 minutes ago, StepStark said:

 Earlier you were arguing that Arya held her own against Brienne and that it's as understandable as Syrio's last stand.

Again I've NEVER wrote that. Obviously you are looking for pretexts to enter into quarrels with people on this forum. I'm not interested. Let say we agree that the scene was unnecessary and meaningless, and basta cosí.

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1 hour ago, Illiterati said:

Apple and orange.  Brienne is a powerful fighter, and was reasonably concerned that she would PHYSICALLY injure a person half her size.  With Joffrey, the concern was with hurting his enormous but fragile ego, and particularly with the possible real consequences of hurting his ego.

What's apple and orange is my post and your reply. You're talking about Brienne, but I was talking about Arya. So, not about Brienne and her concern, but about Arya who carelessly insists on sparing with someone twice her size.

Oh, and I was half joking, but the way, just to show how ridiculous is that interpretation of the scene.

And also, FYI, in sparing both opponents usually restrain themselves in order not to physically injure the other one. That's why sparing is different from a real fight. But if you... I don't know... watch the scene in question, you'll see that Brienne didn't look at all as if she was restraining herself, quite the contrary, the way it was filmed it looked as if she was swinging in full force.

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1 hour ago, Illiterati said:

Apple and orange.  Brienne is a powerful fighter, and was reasonably concerned that she would PHYSICALLY injure a person half her size.  With Joffrey, the concern was with hurting his enormous but fragile ego, and particularly with the possible real consequences of hurting his ego.

Is that why Brienne kicked Arya to the ground?

Did you even watch the scene?

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13 minutes ago, StepStark said:

What's apple and orange is my post and your reply. You're talking about Brienne, but I was talking about Arya. So, not about Brienne and her concern, but about Arya who carelessly insists on sparing with someone twice her size.

Oh, and I was half joking, but the way, just to show how ridiculous is that interpretation of the scene.

And also, FYI, in sparing both opponents usually restrain themselves in order not to physically injure the other one. That's why sparing is different from a real fight. But if you... I don't know... watch the scene in question, you'll see that Brienne didn't look at all as if she was restraining herself, quite the contrary, the way it was filmed it looked as if she was swinging in full force.

You really are dense and argumentative.  You are saying if Arya needs protection she is a spoilt child like Joffrey.  Brienne would be the one holding back to protect her, and that is NOTHING like how Joffrey was coddled.

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1 minute ago, darmody said:

Is that why Brienne kicked Arya to the ground?

Did you even watch the scene?

No, kicking Arya to the ground wouldn't be an injuring blow.  A training sword to the head or other parts of the body would.  She absolutely held back until she saw that Arya could defend herself, and incidentally, the swift kick came upon that realization..

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1 hour ago, StepStark said:

 

@darmody already proved why your newest version doesn't make sense: it simply wasn't filmed like that. But if you insist, then please explain: if you're right, what was the point of that scene? To show that Arya is... not as good as Brienne? That Brienne can do with her as she pleases? That Arya has no idea of her own limits?

And now seriously, why is it so hard to admit that the scene was actually stupid and illogical? Why go through all the denial and engage in mental gymnastics that make no sense at all, why do all that instead of simply admitting to yourself that something D&D wrote is actually stupid?

 

I'm not sure what stupid and illogical means in the context of a fantasy story.  It's possible to put some real descriptive meat on "illogical" -- if it's limited to mean things like we can't say A and ~A, modus tollens holds and the like.  But if we do then it's not really a relevant criticism.  There's nothing illogical in that sense.  Stupid can reasonably carry a meaning like "there's simply to much unreality here for me to accept" but given that this is a fantasy story and everyone is signing on for some degree of unreality, it's not surprising that people find it hard to find s common measure of stupid. 

My own opinion on the fight is that it is well within the realm of acceptible unreality for me.  I have several reasons for that.  

1) I don't think the strength and size difference between them is nearly as relevant -- even transplanted into the world we live in -- as some people do.  This is because of the way swords work in the real world.  They are levers and they make it possible to defend against a blow using *far* less force than was put into the blow.  

2) the inequalities in the battle are not all in Brienne's favor.  She is using a heavier and longer weapon and is more heavily armored.  For some aspects of swordplay the heavier weapon is an advantage and for some aspects the longer weapon is an advantage but for others -- and very important others -- both are handicaps.  Arya must be cleverer about her defense than Brienne because Brienne's sword has more inertia than Arya's.  But it also gives Arya more leverage.  And because Brienne's sword has more inertia she has a more limited set of options.  She won't be as quick, her feints can't be quite so believable or quite so long, she has to make quicker decisions about what to believe from Arya.  Brienne can choose from a much wider variety of deadly targets than Arya can, but it's a lot easier for Arya to actually hit the targets she has open to her because her blade is so much more maneuverable. 

3) I wish that fencing were the sort of thing where skill was a uniform function of time put into it.  It is not.  Some people are just better than others.  There are people who, with a few months work, can much better than someone who's put ten years into it.  Most people can learn it and get better with time (some people always suck).  Some have a gift and quickly get good.  Even very good.  And with work become brilliant in a way that someone who is dedicated but not naturally brilliant will never be.  Life is unfair that way.   Brienne really is written as someone who is not naturally gifted at anything but is supremely dedicated to this one thing -- more so than anyone else.  Arya is naturally gifted (the Stark kids do have some natural gifts) and also kind of obsessed. 

4) arguments about what training she's had and for how long rely on the unexpressed and I think fairly stupid assumption that we see substantially everything.  Both the show and the books are imprecise with respect to time.  We know time passes and a lot of time must have passed but we can't really put any precise number on how much time that is and we can't synchronize the storylines for each character very well (ie just because we see Arya doing something in season three doesn't mean we have a good basis for believing that is happening around the same time as the things happening to Tyrion in season three or that something that happened in episode two of season four happened not long after the things that happened in episode one of season four or even after at all). We see things presented in sequences of narrative convenience, not as synchronized stories. And we're presented with things that have narrative importance, not complete recitations of character actions and movements.  

5) Good doesn't have just one meaning.  Brienne is good.  What is contained within that sentence?  A whole raft of knightly abilities many of which Arya may well have no competence in (combat from horseback, use of a longsword, Lance, defensive techniques that work in armor, etc).  Brienne may well be better than Arya in some senses but not in the limited context of a fight between a large person armed with a bated longsword and a small one armed with a small sword. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

You really are dense and argumentative.  You are saying if Arya needs protection she is a spoilt child like Joffrey.  Brienne would be the one holding back to protect her, and that is NOTHING like how Joffrey was coddled.

I don't know why is it so hard for you to understand something so simple. No, I didn't say that Arya is a spoiled child because she needs protection. I say that Arya would be a spoiled child if she didn't realize how superior to her Brienne actually is. Because if what you're saying is true, then not only that the scene was filmed very wrongly, but also Arya is then delusional enough to think that she can spar equally with someone who clearly outmatches her in every possible way.

If you fail to understand even this, I'm afraid I'll have to give up, because it probably can't be said in simpler terms.

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I've already said a lot here but I wanted to add really the most important reason the scene is not stupid, which is that it has narrative importance.  I wondered, at the time Arya decided to turn for Winterfell, just how they would handle bringing the folks who would see Arya as now the baby of the family and someone in need of protecting (Sansa, Brienne, Jon) to the realization that she's actually the scariest person any of them have met.  And they didn't have to reveal to the schemers that Arya was someone they couldn't ignore but instead had to think very hard about and account for. They did do that though. And they did it in a way that I found fun to watch and not nearly so tedious as long dialogs in which Sansa and Jon are patronizing to Arya or arguments about how important it is to protect her would have been.  Now things are nicely set up for Arya to play an important role in whatever is to happen in the north and/or be the target of some baelish plot without a lot of nannyish talk.  

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11 minutes ago, Capo Ferro said:

I'm not sure what stupid and illogical means in the context of a fantasy story.

In the context of a fantasy story that fancies itself as "gritty" and "realistic" and "quality drama", it can mean a lot.

13 minutes ago, Capo Ferro said:

Stupid can reasonably carry a meaning like "there's simply to much unreality here for me to accept" but given that this is a fantasy story and everyone is signing on for some degree of unreality, it's not surprising that people find it hard to find s common measure of stupid.

That's why Martin drew the line long time ago: he's writing about a human heart in conflict with itself. He quoted that Faulkner's line great many times. And that means precisely that humans are the essence of ASOIAF. Everything else can be more or less magical (dragons, the Others, seasons), but humans remain realistic, because what makes them human remains realistic, things like emotions and desires and fears and like that. They can become something else, like Beric, Cat and Gregor after they're resurrected, but as long as they're humans they're defined by their humanity. The only exception is Dany surviving Drogo's pyre and remaining the same, and there's also Bran whose transformation has to be further explained (Jon will most likely be something along the lines of Beric and LSH), and Melisandre who is also a mystery though evidently human.

There are few things that aren't human, like warging and green-seeing, but so far none of them replaced or negated characters' humanity and also didn't play significant roles in the story (more in the characters' developments).

I think that this line is very obvious in the books which is why the books are so popular among readers that aren't necessarily into fantasy but are into realism and historical accuracy. And because of that it's easy to imagine what would be stupid in the books.

The show went the other way and you're right, in the show it isn't possible to find a common measure of stupid. That's how poorly written stories usually look like.

And about the fight itself, again: I don't have a problem with a smaller or less experienced swordsman beating the opponent, and I don't have a problem with Arya becoming such a swordsman, but I have a problem with Arya becoming such a swordsman without even so much as a prior hint at her improved skills. On the contrary, everything we saw from Arya until now indicates that she's still far from a world-class swordsman: she was constantly beaten by the Waif (at least when they weren't fighting in the dark), so the "time passing" argument doesn't really stand. You can't show Rocky constantly getting beaten by other boxers, but then suddenly able to be equal to world champion, and just say that the time passed and he just got better. If I have to imagine that kind of transformation all by myself, then it's bad writing.

And please stop with odd interpretations of the actual scene. Brienne is a world-class swordsman in the show (in the books too, but in the show she beat The Hound) and we're reminded of that at the beginning of the fight, in fact that is the whole reason Arya wants to practice with her and not with anyone else. And it's simple really: either scene makes sense, or Arya does. You can't have it both ways. If the scene makes sense, meaning Brienne is a world-class fighter and she isn't holding back in the fight, then Arya doesn't because until that moment there was nothing to even indicate that Arya grew into a highly skilled swordsman. But if you want Arya to make sense, meaning either Brienne isn't that good in direct combat (even though she beat The Hound!) or she was holding back, then the scene is totally pointless.

And for what it's worth, I wasn't bothered too much by that scene. After Arya's stay in Braavos, nothing in her arc can really bother me, just like nothing can actually interest me.

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Really? You haven't seen Arya becoming such a swordsman without even so much as a prior hint at her improved skills.

 

She spent an entire season learning the way of the Faceless Men who are the best assassins. She trained under them to the point that she almost became one of them. How is that now a HINT? I think you don't like that she just went from F to D, to C...etc

And if I recall correctly, yes we did see Rocky get beat and train for 20 min of the movie to suddenly improve to the point that he can beat a champion. We see it in pretty much every fighting movie with a underdog. 

 

I get it though, you just wanted them to show you more of the milestones

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1 hour ago, StepStark said:

In the context of a fantasy story that fancies itself as "gritty" and "realistic" and "quality drama", it can mean a lot.

That's why Martin drew the line long time ago: he's writing about a human heart in conflict with itself. He quoted that Faulkner's line great many times. And that means precisely that humans are the essence of ASOIAF. Everything else can be more or less magical (dragons, the Others, seasons), but humans remain realistic, because what makes them human remains realistic, things like emotions and desires and fears and like that. They can become something else, like Beric, Cat and Gregor after they're resurrected, but as long as they're humans they're defined by their humanity. The only exception is Dany surviving Drogo's pyre and remaining the same, and there's also Bran whose transformation has to be further explained (Jon will most likely be something along the lines of Beric and LSH), and Melisandre who is also a mystery though evidently human.

There are few things that aren't human, like warging and green-seeing, but so far none of them replaced or negated characters' humanity and also didn't play significant roles in the story (more in the characters' developments).

I think that this line is very obvious in the books which is why the books are so popular among readers that aren't necessarily into fantasy but are into realism and historical accuracy. And because of that it's easy to imagine what would be stupid in the books.

The show went the other way and you're right, in the show it isn't possible to find a common measure of stupid. That's how poorly written stories usually look like.

And about the fight itself, again: I don't have a problem with a smaller or less experienced swordsman beating the opponent, and I don't have a problem with Arya becoming such a swordsman, but I have a problem with Arya becoming such a swordsman without even so much as a prior hint at her improved skills. On the contrary, everything we saw from Arya until now indicates that she's still far from a world-class swordsman: she was constantly beaten by the Waif (at least when they weren't fighting in the dark), so the "time passing" argument doesn't really stand. You can't show Rocky constantly getting beaten by other boxers, but then suddenly able to be equal to world champion, and just say that the time passed and he just got better. If I have to imagine that kind of transformation all by myself, then it's bad writing.

And please stop with odd interpretations of the actual scene. Brienne is a world-class swordsman in the show (in the books too, but in the show she beat The Hound) and we're reminded of that at the beginning of the fight, in fact that is the whole reason Arya wants to practice with her and not with anyone else. And it's simple really: either scene makes sense, or Arya does. You can't have it both ways. If the scene makes sense, meaning Brienne is a world-class fighter and she isn't holding back in the fight, then Arya doesn't because until that moment there was nothing to even indicate that Arya grew into a highly skilled swordsman. But if you want Arya to make sense, meaning either Brienne isn't that good in direct combat (even though she beat The Hound!) or she was holding back, then the scene is totally pointless.

And for what it's worth, I wasn't bothered too much by that scene. After Arya's stay in Braavos, nothing in her arc can really bother me, just like nothing can actually interest me.

 

A.  There are quite a lot of super-human abilities displayed in the books and in the show.  Yes, Dany surviving the funerary fire (which isn't as one off as some people suggest -- it's something that's hinted at before it happens with Dany enjoying bathwater that her handmaidens find scaldingly hot and hinted at after -- the line about Viserys being no dragon is from the books.  Danerys does get burned and blistery in the book but there is a lot of textual support for the idea that Daenerys is, if not immune to burning, at least unnaturally resistant to heat damage.  Yes, Warging (something Bran, Jon, and Arya all display) and greensight.  Also other varieties of prophecy (Melisandra, Mirri Maz Dur, Magy, the ghost of high heart (though she may be one of the children of the forest) probably Patches, the wizards of the house of the undying, others), shape shifting (Melisandre, the faceless men), resistance to poison (again Melisandre) the ability to resurrect people (Thoros of Myr and, in the show, Melisandre), resurrection after drowning (the Ironborn, Patches), unnatural strength (the Mountain).  Neither these, nor unnatural quickness and aptitude for fencing are in any way inconsistent with it being a story about human internal struggle when confronted with a variety of painful experiences.  I just don't see how the Brienne/Arya battle in any way works against Martin's project or what he has already done in the first five books.  It seems to sit very easily with them to me, particularly as the faceless men are very much part of what Martin has already written and Arya was clearly consigned to the faceless men for care and training when we last saw her in the books.  We know, then, she was on her way to becoming one of the Eumenides capable of implacably delivering death to any living person.  

B.  As far as getting beat by the waif -- we know the waif isn't a waif.  She's older than she appears and she is one of the faceless men.  See above.  

C.   Brienne is certainly an accomplished warrior in the books and in the show.  But it's not like she's Arthur Deyne or anything.  Beating the Hound doesn't maker her Arthur Deyne.  The Hound is a highly experienced warrior and a brutal killer but also not Arthur Deyne.  She also fought well against Jamie Lannister but wasn't better than him "Brienne remembered her fight with Jaime Lannister in the woods. It had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists."  She also beat Loras Tyrell and others in the melee at Bitterbridge but she had a morningstar there and a melee is a very different style of combat. She is ungainly and awkward (and a probable descendant of the also ungainly and awkward Duncan the Tall) who has one extraordinary characteristic and that is unwavering determination.  And her excellence as a warrior is a function of that unwavering determination. She isn't the brightest kid in the class, she's the kid who gets the best grades because she works the hardest.  The kid with the best grades may still be the kid with the best grades but that doesn't mean that the brightest kid isn't going to have a flash of insight that the determined kid doesn't.  That's the way life works.  

D.  There's nothing odd about my description of the scene.  Again, it is perfectly possible to be an excellent and well rounded knight (or non-knight in Brienne's case) who displays a high degree of excellence in every knightly quality, but who in a particular context, is bested by someone who isn't anything like as competent in other areas but is better in that one.  And the context we saw on the show -- knight in armor with longsword against a lightly dressed girl with a small sword and both on foot is probably a highly unusual one given the role knights play in Westeros.   Brienne is not a knight of course, but she was raised and taught by people who raised and taught knights. Defending against a small sword is different and harder than defending against a longsword.  It is a faster weapon with a bigger (or at the very least different) head game to it.  Defending against a small sword when you're using a longsword raises another set of problems. We didn't see, on the show, much work with a sword after she arrived at the House of Black and White but what we did see was a lot of training to develop a person with lightning reflexes who was unbelievably fast with her feet and hands and unusually good at recognizing deception and that's what we saw in the scene as well.

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3 hours ago, Illiterati said:

No, kicking Arya to the ground wouldn't be an injuring blow.  A training sword to the head or other parts of the body would.  She absolutely held back until she saw that Arya could defend herself, and incidentally, the swift kick came upon that realization..

Obviously she wouldn't want to hit Arya in the head with a sword. Same goes for Pod, for that matter. Because that's how sparring works. 

Edited by darmody
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4 hours ago, Illiterati said:

No, kicking Arya to the ground wouldn't be an injuring blow.  A training sword to the head or other parts of the body would.  She absolutely held back until she saw that Arya could defend herself, and incidentally, the swift kick came upon that realization..

Agreed.  And really, someone like Brienne wouldn't go full out against a child less than half her size, and certainly not against someone she is sworn to serve and protect.

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this was one of my favorite episodes ever

1. dany and jon in he cave-they have a wonderful chemistry

2.dany asking for jons advise

3.ary and sansa meeting

4. ary and brienne "dancing"  

5.missandei talking about dany

6. and of course the best battle scene so far 

Edited by Kira
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