Marco van Panter Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 7 hours ago, Quoth said: Cersei will need the gold to buy food to keep her subjects happy. How? Buying stuff doesn't magically create goods. We're told the Reach is the grain storage of the Seven Kingdoms. They emptied it and burned it. There might be some left but, if shit hits the fan, bread will be worth more than gold because you can't eat gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farstrider Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Dany listened and considered what she heard from Jon but she is a great ruler and made her own decision. Jon's advice was taken in consideration but Dany took that opinion and found her own solution. She found a better way. War is not the time to go soft against someone like Cersei. Jon is no match for Cersei. Ned was no match for Cersei. Robb was no match for Tywin. You cannot beat Cersei by being a sheep. You cannot beat Cersei by being a direwolf. Only a Dragon can beat a lion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted August 7, 2017 Author Share Posted August 7, 2017 7 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said: It was deftly done Dany needed a reason not to burn KL, she needs to look smarter than Tyrion and Jon can't steal her thunder so can't be his plan. Jon gives the rationale and she takes ownership of the plan, this season has taken it to anther level; the awkwardness of the reunions grounded the show before the action kicked in Wait Can you explain this better. Do you mean that jon just manipulated her into doing it? I think it was definetly the right choice but I am curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted August 7, 2017 Author Share Posted August 7, 2017 5 hours ago, cade said: It was great advice. I loved everything that Jon said, but I would hope he also sets Tyrion straight on his plan to besiege a city of 500,000 civilians. Even if it quickly led to a popular uprising that overthrew Cersei from within, that would probably result in far more deaths than the dragons burning the Red Keep. this is how most big cities and such were taken in midevil times. In truth when a city is sacked it can often kill scores of people on both sides. Also A fire in a city in the old days could kill thousands of people easily and likely more in a city as big and "packed" as kingslanding. Between the fire and smoke and the panic which would result in thousands trampeled. Basically it is gonna be bloody no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Yorick Ampersand Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 I got the impression that he told her not to use the dragons and that she went against his will. He said people believed she could do things differently from the others before her, but she took off and used the Dragons anyway. I haven't rewatched yet so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted August 7, 2017 Author Share Posted August 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Marco van Panter said: How? Buying stuff doesn't magically create goods. We're told the Reach is the grain storage of the Seven Kingdoms. They emptied it and burned it. There might be some left but, if shit hits the fan, bread will be worth more than gold because you can't eat gold. buying stuff from across the narrow sea can though it will be very expensive and take a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cade Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 10 hours ago, snow is the man said: this is how most big cities and such were taken in midevil times. Yes, but Jon is telling Dany to be far better than that. He's even telling her to be far better than any superpower ever has in our own history even in modern times (just look at what's been done to Yemen over the last 2.5 years, let alone a plethora of other examples). Which is great, but if he's going to be consistent he would also oppose Tyrion's barbaric plan to starve out a city with 500,000 civilians. Quote In truth when a city is sacked it can often kill scores of people on both sides. Also A fire in a city in the old days could kill thousands of people easily and likely more in a city as big and "packed" as kingslanding. Between the fire and smoke and the panic which would result in thousands trampeled. Basically it is gonna be bloody no matter what. Yes, but at least the Red Keep has a far higher concentration of military targets and is somewhat isolated from the rest of the city. A siege is a direct attack first and foremost on all the smallfolk. It would be very unlikely to end without causing far more innocent casualties than a direct attack on the Red Keep. I said I agree with Jon that Dany shouldn't do that, either, but given all her power, her upbringing and the brutal context of that world, it's already extraordinary that she hasn't invaded King's Landing. That's just rarely acknowledged in this fandom because she's held to laughably absurd double standards. If Stannis had dragons, it would've been game over for Cersei as soon as he could fly them to her, and he'd have been cheered for it by a huge majority of fans even if he killed thousands of civilians in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elder brother jonothor dar Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 12 hours ago, snow is the man said: Wait Can you explain this better. Do you mean that jon just manipulated her into doing it? I think it was definetly the right choice but I am curious I mean from a show runner point of view, often in show logic falls apart or does not follow its own logical conclusion for the sake of drama or spectacle. This time events leading up to, rationale and outcome all made perfect sense for both story and characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camara Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 She did follow Jon's advice, she wanted to go to the Red Keep but went for armies instead. Attacking armies is fair game in any war, and there's no Geneva convention in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xander_blackfyre Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 If you recall he plan was to mount Drogon fly with Rhaegal and Viserion in tow to Red Keep because her enemies are there,Jon said to her something to the affect that her followers believed in her because they have seen her do the impossible and because of that they would believe she could build a world different from the one that they had known, but if she used the dragons to destroy the city and melt the Red Keep she would be just more of the same no different then those that came before her. What Jon's was basically saying was just because you have the means to do something quickly and decisively does not mean you should use them, especially many innocents will be hurt in the process; Jorah said to Dany "The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are." Jon was basically saying leave the same thing leave the people in peace, well as much as you can in war, don't cause any undue suffering, show them that even though you could destroy all in one fell swoop you care more about the people than anyone has before. That is why she took his advice, she went and attacked the armies of the Lannisters and Tarly and did not lay waste to the city and destroy countless lives even though she could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic. Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Somewhat i guess, although the plan to attack them in the open field wasn't exactly introduced either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 12 hours ago, cade said: Yes, but Jon is telling Dany to be far better than that. He's even telling her to be far better than any superpower ever has in our own history even in modern times (just look at what's been done to Yemen over the last 2.5 years, let alone a plethora of other examples). Which is great, but if he's going to be consistent he would also oppose Tyrion's barbaric plan to starve out a city with 500,000 civilians. Yes, but at least the Red Keep has a far higher concentration of military targets and is somewhat isolated from the rest of the city. A siege is a direct attack first and foremost on all the smallfolk. It would be very unlikely to end without causing far more innocent casualties than a direct attack on the Red Keep. I said I agree with Jon that Dany shouldn't do that, either, but given all her power, her upbringing and the brutal context of that world, it's already extraordinary that she hasn't invaded King's Landing. That's just rarely acknowledged in this fandom because she's held to laughably absurd double standards. If Stannis had dragons, it would've been game over for Cersei as soon as he could fly them to her, and he'd have been cheered for it by a huge majority of fans even if he killed thousands of civilians in the process. Anyone who thought stannis was merciful was either trolling or confused about the word. And I agree that a siege is a horrible thing but unlike today the way war was fought was different because the weapons were. And another thing is if she uses her dragons that city that was built by the targs will be burned to the ground. In the old world houses were essentially thin wood and straw like roofs which is essentially a fire starter. Also it was incredibly rare for a siege to result in an entire city dying and given the hatred for cersei you know she wouldn't last long. A siege was usually ended by someone betraying the city and letting the enemy in somehow. And as for your yemen example you are right it is brutal. though a better modern day equiviliant would be leningrad in world war 2 which was the deadliest siege in history reducing a city of 1.2 million to 300,000 in less then four years and most died from starvation or freezing to death. However in midevil times it was usually betrayl that led to a city falling during a siege. Though since cersei will likely blow the city rather then lose it it is gonna be a great green fireball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cade Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 58 minutes ago, snow is the man said: And another thing is if she uses her dragons that city that was built by the targs will be burned to the ground. In the old world houses were essentially thin wood and straw like roofs which is essentially a fire starter. That's an incredibly farfetched assumption, especially since a vast majority of the city was left untouched after Cersei blew up the Sept with huge caches of wildfire, which can't be put out by water and burns so hot it can melt steel. The Sept is deep inside the city, not in a fairly isolated corner like the Red Keep is. Of course, as you say, there is still probably wildfire planted throughout the city that Cersei would use if on the brink of defeat, but that applies even more to a siege, where she'd have a lot of advance notice. Dany could prevent that with a surprise dragon attack. I wasn't saying the entire city would die in a siege, just that it would be a direct attack on innocent civilians and therefore likely to kill far more of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 7 minutes ago, cade said: That's an incredibly farfetched assumption, especially since a vast majority of the city was left untouched after Cersei blew up the Sept with huge caches of wildfire, which can't be put out by water and burns so hot it can melt steel. The Sept is deep inside the city, not in a fairly isolated corner like the Red Keep is. Of course, as you say, there is still probably wildfire planted throughout the city that Cersei would use if on the brink of defeat, but that applies even more to a siege, where she'd have a lot of advance notice. Dany could prevent that with a surprise dragon attack. I wasn't saying the entire city would die in a siege, just that it would be a direct attack on innocent civilians and therefore likely to kill far more of them. The red keep is completly stone and incredibly well built with a ton of escape hatches. Dany could get through it but it would take a bit and she would be easily hit by a ballista that likely line the city walls and red keep. The best plan in the situation for dany is to do a siege and then wait for someone to let her in. Otherwise she is gonna either lose alot of soldiers or risk a massive firestorm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cade Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 8 minutes ago, snow is the man said: The red keep is completly stone and incredibly well built with a ton of escape hatches. Dany could get through it but it would take a bit and she would be easily hit by a ballista that likely line the city walls and red keep. The best plan in the situation for dany is to do a siege and then wait for someone to let her in. Otherwise she is gonna either lose alot of soldiers or risk a massive firestorm. Agreed that certainly her safest bet for herself and her soldiers is a siege, but I'm just talking about how to best protect civilians. I'll agree to disagree on that since I have nothing new to add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 10 minutes ago, cade said: Agreed that certainly her safest bet for herself and her soldiers is a siege, but I'm just talking about how to best protect civilians. I'll agree to disagree on that since I have nothing new to add. Honestly the civilians are gonna take a hit in this war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCPhan Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Yes, she took his advice. She used her dragon on an army in open country and not on KL. But, more importantly, she went against Tyrions advice. And, there was nothing cooler or more intimidating than the Dothraki hoard bearing down on the Lannister wussies with a dragon leading- that was a really cool scene and the sound was perfect. Did the gold make it to KL? The one guy said it was inside the walls but the Iron Bank rep was still waiting for his money. I don't think the gold is there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of Ashes Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 On 8/7/2017 at 2:17 PM, RhaenysB said: Yes absolutely. She didn't go in to burn KL to the ground with three dragons, she hit back after getting three slaps in the face. I mean, no matter how awfully destructive that dragon attack was, it was totally understandable and the least she was going to do. It was high time she took action and not just sit around and see her mission fall into pieces because Tyrion gives the worst advice in the world. I'm inclined to share the blame with Varys: what happened to the spider who knew what was happening a world away in Pentos? The one who knew Cat entered King's Landing incognito? Qyburn may have co-opted his little birds but I believe the old Varys would have at least noticed something was amiss. I mean, Euron makes a very public appearance in Cersei's court- Varys may have been on a ship with Dany and co. but he didn't hear about this after they arrived in Dragonstone? He didn't need his little birds to hear of something like this; it's like he's not even bothering to keep up to date with the most blatant events in King's Landing that would obviously affect Dany's campaign and Tyrion's strategies. "As long as I have eyes, I will use them" indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crona Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Yea, she did technically follow his advice. She didn't burn any castles, just food. Nor did she kill any civilians, not like the civilians are good people anyway. But, why does she need advisors to tell her that burning down a city is not considered to be seen as a good queen/savior? Shouldn't something like that come naturally to someone who doesn't want to hurt innocent people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Bean Corbray Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Technically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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