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S. OF HOUSE STARK

Is Sansa threatened by Ayra?

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1 minute ago, princess_snow said:

I was really bothered by this scene. I had trouble understanding her reactions too. I understand what people are saying in this thread for reasons, yet it didn't track properly for me. The fact I couldn't work it out and apparently after coming on here a lot of others cant either and that we need to check in with D&D for me speaks volumes that something was not right about the scene, or the objectives Sophie chose to play didn't give a clear understanding for the audience.

I don't see Sansa being overly jealous re Arya and her assassin skills. Yet I initially decided to go with ' well that must be what it is ' then switched to ' no doesn't fit for the character ' . Maybe she is concerned for Arya ?? I didn't really pick that up based on Sophies reaction either.

Anyway, I do not want a Starkbowl and I hope the Starks do something about LF, I think he is going try to play them off against one another or cause some conflict but I feel they've all been through too much to allow LF to get between them.

I hope Arya kills him.      

D&D having to justify scenes with behind the scenes explanations is getting stupid. It was the same problem with the Nymeria/Arya reunion, when they had to explain the bizarre connection with Arya's "that's not me" line in Season 1 because half the audience was wondering if the wolf wasn't actually Nymeria. (Not that their "it was symbolism!" explanation made any more sense). If it doesn't make sense in the scene, then fix your writing. They can't just depend on a very dedicated fanbase to look up every episode's interview to find out what's really going on. 

I don't think Starkbowl will happen. I think they're trying to mislead the audience into thinking Sansa will betray her family - hence all the manufactured Jon-Sansa tension, Sansa's shady looks, Sansa appearing jealous of Arya and the awkwardness of Sansa's reunions with Bran and Arya - and then *plot twist* she's been double crossing Littlefinger the whole time. Trouble is Sansa's characterization get's trashed on the way. 

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29 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Sandra is destined to be the one who keeps the Stark line alive. Bran cant have kids(probably going to die), Arya never wanted kids(probably going to die), Jon is a bastard/Legitimized Targaryen (probablly going to die). She is the only one left, she allways wanted to be a Lady of the Castle and have kids...

She's not the hero we wanted... it's kinda sad...

I am not so sure about this.

From Season 1, Sansa seemed the most likely to survive the series of the Starks and still does. However, she is also the obvious choice, so it may not happen. She is just as likely to end up dead by series end as Arya or Bran in my opinion.

But the way the show seems to be going, I think there's a decent chance Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa, Bran and Tyrion will all survive it or at most one of them will die.

There's a lot of characters who don't seem to be dying this season but will almost certainly do so in Season 8 - Cersei, the Night King, Jaime, Varys, Melisandre, Qyburn, the Mountain, Beric, the Hound, Theon, Drogon, Viserion, Rhaegal, etc. 

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I expect the Stark line will survive through Jon and Sansa, who'll marry and have kids. They're actually cousins, not siblings, and unlike the others, they've never had a close sibling relationship and never really thought of each other as siblings. IMO, they'll marry so Jon can retain his title as King in the North at Sansa's behest (She'll get to choose the man she marries, rather than it being forced on her) once it's discovered he's a Targaryen by birth, and in line with First Men tradition, Jon will take on the name of the great house he's marrying into to perpetuate the line, so he'll become Jon Stark and all his children will be named Stark.

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1 minute ago, Thor Odinson said:

I expect the Stark line will survive through Jon and Sansa, who'll marry and have kids. They're actually cousins, not siblings, and unlike the others, they've never had a close sibling relationship and never really thought of each other as siblings. IMO, they'll marry so Jon can retain his title as King in the North at Sansa's behest (She'll get to choose the man she marries, rather than it being forced on her) once it's discovered he's a Targaryen by birth, and in line with First Men tradition, Jon will take on the name of the great house he's marrying into to perpetuate the line, so he'll become Jon Stark and all his children will be named Stark.

Lol, that is not happening.

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13 minutes ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

D&D having to justify scenes with behind the scenes explanations is getting stupid. It was the same problem with the Nymeria/Arya reunion, when they had to explain the bizarre connection with Arya's "that's not me" line in Season 1 because half the audience was wondering if the wolf wasn't actually Nymeria. (Not that their "it was symbolism!" explanation made any more sense). If it doesn't make sense in the scene, then fix your writing. They can't just depend on a very dedicated fanbase to look up every episode's interview to find out what's really going on. 

I don't think Starkbowl will happen. I think they're trying to mislead the audience into thinking Sansa will betray her family - hence all the manufactured Jon-Sansa tension, Sansa's shady looks, Sansa appearing jealous of Arya and the awkwardness of Sansa's reunions with Bran and Arya - and then *plot twist* she's been double crossing Littlefinger the whole time. Trouble is Sansa's characterization get's trashed on the way. 

I agree with all of this. Something is just up with her characterisation, I blame the writing here. Its not done well enough or they are rushing the  internalisation of Sansa ( doesn't that even make sense ha ), I am loving the Winterfell scenes with the Starks but her choices are not clear enough or something. I don't know I just feel unsure about what the hell she is actually doing and feel like its left to speculation.      

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I wouldn't say threatened but rather Sansa felt stupid

 

She mocked Arya about running from the guards. She passively joked about being called a lord. She laughed at Arya when she said she had a list of people she'd wants dead. She also laughed when she said she was on her way to Kings Landing to kill Cersie. Yet, you can tell when Bran confirms the list is real, Sansa still probably felt that Arya did not partake in killing off those people. When she witnesses what Arya is capable of in regards to fighting, I think Sansa felt stupid. Here is Arya who Sansa did not see for at least 5 years completely changed and Sansa couldn't see it. She saw her little sister and not someone who matured. 

 

I think deep down, there was also envy or jealously in Arya's ability to be strong individually. Sanda said she would have killed Jofrrey, yet Arya cleared showed after the fight with big B that she actually would be able to kill Joffrey and his guards. 

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9 hours ago, DesertRose said:

I think Sansa's expression was shock and disappointment. I think she was definitely jealous when Arya pointed out Brienne had sworn to protect them both. She thinks of Brienne as her personal bodyguard. I think it also led her to question Arya's motives. When they were first reunited, Arya admitted to her list and then laughed it off like it was a joke. I think now that Sansa knows it is true and is watching Arya use her skills, she feels like that was dishonest of Arya to laugh it off and feels betrayed by them both for those various reasons. I think after all she has been through, (and Littlefinger's influence) Sansa is mistrustful of everyone, and she could see Arya as having lied to her already.

What are you talking about? Arya only laughed because Sansa didn't take her seriously. There was no lie. Bran confirmed it in the Godswood and Arya explained her list further with the discussion about Joffery always being at the top of her list. 

The reaction to "you swore to serve both of my Mother's daughters" was clear jealousy. Especially when Brienne and Arya seem to have a connection already, bonding over something Sansa can never truly understand. The fact that Arya is doing something right and getting praise... it's not something Sansa is used to. 

 

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9 hours ago, Risto said:

Well, nothing that we have seen or heard on TV or from the cast and producers would indicate that your POV is any valid whatsoever. Actually I find ridiculous to argue that Sansa is jealous because Arya is better in an activity she never pursued or was interested in. 

As for my opinion on the subject, I find that the scene served for Sansa to actually see that what she so easily disregarded in the crypts, Arya's list, may not be as naive and foolish, as she originally thought. I find her reaction to Arya killing someone stupid, given the fact she killed Ramsay, but then again, it is just me. I see Sansa being confused, impressed and slightly worried. Believe it or not, not eveyone is so happy with their little sister being ninja killer. 

I will not bother to point out again that the emphasis is not on the activity. 

That's exactly what bothers her. That she isn't the only one who changed from naive and foolish to skilled and savvy (Though I'm still in the dark about what skills Sansa has. But okay the show wants us to believe that she is the new power of knowledge. Sure, whatever). Bran and Arya changed too, they grew up too, they have been through terrible things too. She isn't superior in her evolving as a person or the only one fit to rule. And she hates that because she is selfish and power hungry, which is o wonder after she spent her teenage years around Cersei and Littlefinger. I'm not expecting her to be happy, but I would be shocked if that scene was intended to portray her feeling upset about the idea of killing people for the reason you mentioned yourself. People on Arya's list are as deserving of death as Ramsay was she fed him to his own dogs.

of course I could be wrong and Sansa does feel for Arya's turning into a killing machine (actually it's fighting machine at worst at this point, she hasn't seen Arya kill anybody). Maybe the show will address this concern and you are right. Maybe they won't and they'll turn it into a new type of rivalry between the Stark kids, a chaotic ladder for Littlefinger to climb. Or maybe they won't do either and we can put Sansa's facial expressions on the list of Hundreds of Things The Show Initiated and Didn't Do Anything With. 

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All I know is that Arya heard Littlefinger and Tywin plot some shit on their family. Arya and Sansa had a rocky relationship at best last they saw each other (remember at the Darry? "I don't rememeber!" "Liar! Tell it true. You did see what Joffery did!" etc). They reunited and hugged but that didn't negate their past. Sansa is a "friend" of Littlefinger and has given  him room and board in their family home. Arya doesn't  like this. This WILL cause  a bit of trouble between the sister (but not long lasting).  Littlefinger has knowledge of a certain letter Sansa was forced to write declaring Robb a traitor to the crown and all that. He will use that letter somehow against Sansa. (I just wonder  how he will put it into play)...But because of Bran of course Littlefinger will be put to trial by Stark. He will fill them in on the shit Littlefinger has been up to. Sansa  being the Lady of Winterfell will pass the sentence but won't swing the sword (which is the Northern way) Arya won't  have a problem swinging that sword though and then valar morghulis.

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3 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

I will not bother to point out again that the emphasis is not on the activity. 

That's exactly what bothers her. That she isn't the only one who changed from naive and foolish to skilled and savvy (Though I'm still in the dark about what skills Sansa has. But okay the show wants us to believe that she is the new power of knowledge. Sure, whatever). Bran and Arya changed too, they grew up too, they have been through terrible things too. She isn't superior in her evolving as a person or the only one fit to rule. And she hates that because she is selfish and power hungry, which is o wonder after she spent her teenage years around Cersei and Littlefinger. I'm not expecting her to be happy, but I would be shocked if that scene was intended to portray her feeling upset about the idea of killing people for the reason you mentioned yourself. People on Arya's list are as deserving of death as Ramsay was she fed him to his own dogs.

of course I could be wrong and Sansa does feel for Arya's turning into a killing machine (actually it's fighting machine at worst at this point, she hasn't seen Arya kill anybody). Maybe the show will address this concern and you are right. Maybe they won't and they'll turn it into a new type of rivalry between the Stark kids, a chaotic ladder for Littlefinger to climb. Or maybe they won't do either and we can put Sansa's facial expressions on the list of Hundreds of Things The Show Initiated and Didn't Do Anything With. 

My problem is that you inherently believe that Sansa is selfish and power-hungry, something that show clearly doesn't point out. The problem with people's interpretation of the Vale conundrum and dialogue about Rickon is not that Sansa threw poor Rickon under the bus, but that she understands Ramsay and knows his game. Vale army thing, again, they needed Gandalfian moment, so they had to do it that way. It was not a treason, as the show doesn't take it as a treason. The narrative of the show doesn't see Sansa as power-hungry, selfish person. That is the problem with your interpretations. Yes, as watchers, we can make our own judgement on these things, but we should also not ignore the story authors want to tell us. And that is where your opinion regarding Sansa fails. And thus, your analysis on her thoughts regarding Arya fails.

It is not that she is shocked about the killing. She is shocked because the idolized version of Stark family doesn't exist anymore. Mix that with the Arya's demonstration of impressive skills, and naturally you get someone confused, worried. The sister she knew is gone. I think that hurts Sansa in the same way Bran hurt her with rape recollection. We see Sansa's enthusiasm in both reunions and it turns bittersweet when her siblings open up about what they have been doing and what happened to them.

What I like about Sansa and Arya, and why they are my two favorite characters, is that they are so different and yet so connected. There may be a reason why they met in the crypt in front of Ned's statue. Sun and moon. But the winter came, so they have to find the way to work together. More than that, in trailers we heard Sansa's saying the famous line "lone wolf dies, but the pack survives". Do you actually think the writers would give her such important line, to make her aware of the meaning of those words, if she is to betray her family for her own selfish reasons? 

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18 hours ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

Umm I didn't read anything postive in the look that Sansa gave as she looked down upon Brienne and Arya. If she was shocked I didn't get that from the look. So maybe Sofie needs to work on her shocked look? 

I think she's sad with a touch of awe for her little sister-killer. Because suddenly she realizes that this is what Arya has become: a killer with a list.

"How many are on that list?"

"Oh, most of them are dead already"

What do you say to that? Sansa may have had a little hope that Arya was telling her stories, just like she did when she was a child, but when she sees her fighting, she realizes that she really had a tough way back home, just like herself.

And learned a thing or two along the way, just like herself.

It is also my impression that Sansa realizes that her dream of taking her mother's place in Winterfell as the Lady of the Castle is different from what she has imagined. Her brothers do not need her and neither does Arya. That may be a disappointment.

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7 minutes ago, Risto said:

My problem is that you inherently believe that Sansa is selfish and power-hungry, something that show clearly doesn't point out. The problem with people's interpretation of the Vale conundrum and dialogue about Rickon is not that Sansa threw poor Rickon under the bus, but that she understands Ramsay and knows his game. Vale army thing, again, they needed Gandalfian moment, so they had to do it that way. It was not a treason, as the show doesn't take it as a treason. The narrative of the show doesn't see Sansa as power-hungry, selfish person. That is the problem with your interpretations. Yes, as watchers, we can make our own judgement on these things, but we should also not ignore the story authors want to tell us. And that is where your opinion regarding Sansa fails. And thus, your analysis on her thoughts regarding Arya fails.

It is not that she is shocked about the killing. She is shocked because the idolized version of Stark family doesn't exist anymore. Mix that with the Arya's demonstration of impressive skills, and naturally you get someone confused, worried. The sister she knew is gone. I think that hurts Sansa in the same way Bran hurt her with rape recollection. We see Sansa's enthusiasm in both reunions and it turns bittersweet when her siblings open up about what they have been doing and what happened to them.

What I like about Sansa and Arya, and why they are my two favorite characters, is that they are so different and yet so connected. There may be a reason why they met in the crypt in front of Ned's statue. Sun and moon. But the winter came, so they have to find the way to work together. More than that, in trailers we heard Sansa's saying the famous line "lone wolf dies, but the pack survives". Do you actually think the writers would give her such important line, to make her aware of the meaning of those words, if she is to betray her family for her own selfish reasons? 

I didn't say she's going to betray her family, Sansa is not THAT selfish or powerhungry. That's what's going to be Littlefinger's downfall, that he relies too much on sansa's allegiance to him and Sansa's character traits that mirror his or Cersei's. Despite being the most selfish and power hungry of the starks, she is still a Stark. 

And yes, it would make sense for Sansa to be confused about how her siblings changed and care about their psychological well being. But that was not what I saw on Sansa's face and I'm still waiting for her to mention Rickon as an upset sister who cares so deeply about her younger siblings and what the Stark family used to be. 

And my interpretation is just as valid as yours, the difference is that we are both biased in opposite directions. The fact that Sansa is your favorite character and you don't register her negative/neutral side doesn't make your interpretation better or more faithful. We watch the same show and the same scenes. 

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I expect it was suppose to be a mix of feelings. 

All the remaining Stark children are broken, and Bran is the most direct in 'not being himself' but this is also mirrored in Sansa and Arya. None are who they were before and I'm sure Brans sentiment of remembering what it feels like to be Bran, is again the same. Both Sansa and Arya statements intent etc are quite devoid of feeling. Even with the hugs, there is no warmth there, from either. Only Jon maintains the warmth of Ned, with his naivety.  

I don't expect Sansa to be jealous of Arya. It's not in Sansa's character, she doesn't value hand to hand combat or assassination skills in herself, she simply has nothing to be jealous of. Concern may play a part, maybe only in so much as acknowledging the Arya she knew had gone. She may feel threatened? Sansa was ready to give her mantle to Bran. It's pretty obvious Arya would never want it, Sansa doesn't seem power hungry in herself (Or why be all like; BRAN TAKE THE POWAR!), and power is a weak thread here for feeling threatened. Maybe the unfeeling statements about killing from Arya triggers Sansa's Ramseys receptors a bit, some of Sansa will want to know Arya has not gone full crazy now she is a killing machine, she should be a little weary.

 

And the idea that Sansa is palling with Stark enemies etc. Does everyone forget so quickly LF is only there because Sansa pulled the Vale to win the BotB? She save Jon, and Winterfell. 

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I don't  think anyone is forgetting anything. Especially Arya. She was upset and disgusted that littlefinger was in their home (Maisie did a GREAT  job in expressing those emotions!) This isnt Sansa hate. Its just pointing out there is bad blood in the history between them. That's common sense. There was something  to Sansas look and abrupt depature. Briennes reaction showed there was concern when she looked up and saw Sansa. It's  as simple as setting up the last three episodes with the present  Stark  children in Winterfell and Littlefinger...can we at least all  agree to that?

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47 minutes ago, Ranger Kragin said:

I think some of the confusion about Sansa is Ms. Sophie Turner own doing. She's the one telling aroung that Sansa is having her first taste of power and she doesn't let it go easily.

The interview released this week has her claiming the Stark siblings can't trust eachother anymore. *sigh*

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Then with that  being said it's  the way the writers intend it to be. She's  just going off the info she's  given  while  not giving too much away. We are supposed to pick up on the mistrust. There was some already there between  the sisters. It's  just not going to play out bad for them, only littlefinger. 

  • They have been away from each other for quite some time
  • There was still bad blood between  Arya  n Sansa
  • They wanted to see each other again they did and discovered that none of them were the same as when they last met
  • Littlefinger is there he's  SURE to pick up on the enimity
  • He plants more seeds of distrust...chaos IS his ladder
  • They work things out for themselves  after talking (which is what they should do immediately )
  • Littlefinger  is no longer a problem : Valar Morhgulis
  • Jon comes home, shit gets real....real crazy and cold
Edited by The Bastard of Summer

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2 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

I didn't say she's going to betray her family, Sansa is not THAT selfish or powerhungry. That's what's going to be Littlefinger's downfall, that he relies too much on sansa's allegiance to him and Sansa's character traits that mirror his or Cersei's. Despite being the most selfish and power hungry of the starks, she is still a Stark. 

...

And my interpretation is just as valid as yours, the difference is that we are both biased in opposite directions. The fact that Sansa is your favorite character and you don't register her negative/neutral side doesn't make your interpretation better or more faithful. We watch the same show and the same scenes. 

Your interpretation is flatly incorrect. That's like interpreting Tyrion as a pedophile because he was attracted to Sansa. You're clearly not watching the same show or the same scenes if your takeaway from that is that Sansa is either selfish or power hungry. She's neither, and to claim that that's remotely a valid interpretation is totally ludicrous.

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