Jon should bend his knees.

[Styl7]

7 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

That wasn't until later, after Tyrion convinced her it was in her best interest to help out a possible ally.  At their very first meeting, she demanded he bend the knee and scoffed at the idea that she could possibly need his help just because she has dragons.

As it turns out, she was ready to go off half cocked (again) and burn KL until Jon counseled her against it.

She said she would fly to the KL and burn the Red Keep, not the Kings Landing.. She would risk her own life to kil Cersei and end this war.

Even without Jon's help she can win this war..

[snow is the man]

7 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Gave in to what? She got Yara to promise to respect the integrity of the seven (now six) kingdoms and to promise to stop reaving and raping. Should Yara go back on that promise I am pretty sure Pyke can expect a visit from Drogon.

so the worst kingdom is expected to behave? And by gave in I meant she didn't try to haggle or anything. They just told her that euron was gonna kill them. So the obvious argument would be "well I'll defeat euron for you and sit you on the sea throne (basically the warden of the iron isles  type thing) and that's it. They really had no bargaining position once they admitted that. Yet dany gives them their kingdom back. So if she is so set on getting her country back why did dany give them their independence when she didn't have too.

[El Guapo]

6 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

so the worst kingdom is expected to behave? And by gave in I meant she didn't try to haggle or anything. They just told her that euron was gonna kill them. So the obvious argument would be "well I'll defeat euron for you and sit you on the sea throne (basically the warden of the iron isles  type thing) and that's it. They really had no bargaining position once they admitted that. Yet dany gives them their kingdom back. So if she is so set on getting her country back why did dany give them their independence when she didn't have too.

If they don't behave I am pretty sure Dany can make them behave. Drogon is a very useful tool for that sort of thing.  Really as mentioned on the previous page the Iron Islands offer nothing of value to  Westeros.  Good ridddance I say.

[snow is the man]

1 minute ago, El Guapo said:

If they don't behave I am pretty sure Dany can make them behave. Drogon is a very useful tool for that sort of thing.  Really as mentioned on the previous page the Iron Islands offer nothing of value to  Westeros.  Good ridddance I say.

But that's not the point she wants the SEVEN kingdoms. Yes of all the kingdoms the iron isles are the least valuble but at the same time she was willing to let them go for no real reason which made it six kingdoms not seven. Look basically she gave them up for no reason. Why? give me a real reason she would have to give up one of her kingdoms when she gets nothing for it because again theon and yara basically had no choice but to join dany or get killed by euron.

[El Guapo]

1 minute ago, snow is the man said:

But that's not the point she wants the SEVEN kingdoms. Yes of all the kingdoms the iron isles are the least valuble but at the same time she was willing to let them go for no real reason which made it six kingdoms not seven. Look basically she gave them up for no reason. Why? give me a real reason she would have to give up one of her kingdoms when she gets nothing for it because again theon and yara basically had no choice but to join dany or get killed by euron.

She got ships that she needed to help transport her army to Westeros and the use of those ships in the upcoming war. Seems like a fair trade to me.

[Johan Wehtje]

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

But that's not the point she wants the SEVEN kingdoms. Yes of all the kingdoms the iron isles are the least valuble but at the same time she was willing to let them go for no real reason which made it six kingdoms not seven. Look basically she gave them up for no reason. Why? give me a real reason she would have to give up one of her kingdoms when she gets nothing for it because again theon and yara basically had no choice but to join dany or get killed by euron.

Um - The Iron Islands are not one of the 7 kingdoms, the wiki is not completely clear , but they had a cautious but supportive relationship with the Targeryens but were aloof from mainland politics. At the same time the Greyjoys styled themselves as Lords, not Kings of the Iron Islands , but it was Robert Baratheon who subjugated them to mainland rule. Dany's arrangement looks like it just returns the Iron Islands to their older status of being supporters of the Targeryen cause without being integrated into the 7 Kingdoms (if they were it would 8 rather than 7 kingdoms - North, Vale, Reach, Riverlands, Westerlands, Stormlands and Dorne - with the Crownlands not counting as one of the Kingdoms).

[Styl7]

4 hours ago, snow is the man said:

But that's not the point she wants the SEVEN kingdoms. Yes of all the kingdoms the iron isles are the least valuble but at the same time she was willing to let them go for no real reason which made it six kingdoms not seven. Look basically she gave them up for no reason. Why? give me a real reason she would have to give up one of her kingdoms when she gets nothing for it because again theon and yara basically had no choice but to join dany or get killed by euron.

Did you forgot that the Greyjoys gave Daenerys a large fleet to be able to take her and her people to Westeros..(after Dany's fleet was burned)

[Lurid Jester]

3 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Um - The Iron Islands are not one of the 7 kingdoms...

Yes they are. 

Quote

Aside from House Targaryen's island "kingdom" of Dragonstone, the continent of Westeros was ruled by seven monarchs at the time of Aegon's Landing:

1.  Torrhen Stark, King in the North.
2.  Ronnel Arryn, King of Mountain and Vale.
3.  Harren Hoare, King of the Isles and the Rivers.
4.  Loren I Lannister, King of the Rock.
5.  Mern IX Gardener, King of the Reach.
6.  Argilac Durrandon, the Storm King.
7.  Meria Martell, Princess of Dorne.

[snow is the man]

12 hours ago, El Guapo said:

She got ships that she needed to help transport her army to Westeros and the use of those ships in the upcoming war. Seems like a fair trade to me.

But why make the trade! that is my point why give up one of her kingdoms when she doesn't need too. She could get the ships without trading in one of her kingdoms.

[SansaJonRule]

12 hours ago, Styl7 said:

She said she would fly to the KL and burn the Red Keep, not the Kings Landing.. She would risk her own life to kil Cersei and end this war.

Even without Jon's help she can win this war..

Yes, I stand corrected, she did only say the Red Keep.  I think I got it confused with the first time she threatened to burn the RK and KL.  Nevertheless, my point was that she needs people to counsel her against going dragon crazy and killing innocent people (the ones she claims to want to protect), making her "more of the same".  In this case the help he provided was good, persuasive counsel.

Sure, she could take KL without any help, that's not necessarily what Jon meant about her needing his help. What happens if the rest of Westeros decides to rise up against her?  That may not be so easy.  Jon can possibly help her achieve her goals with minimum resistance and bloodshed.

[Styl7]

10 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Yes, I stand corrected, she did only say the Red Keep.  I think I got it confused with the first time she threatened to burn the RK and KL.  Nevertheless, my point was that she needs people to counsel her against going dragon crazy and killing innocent people (the ones she claims to want to protect), making her "more of the same".  In this case the help he provided was good, persuasive counsel.

Sure, she could take KL without any help, that's not necessarily what Jon meant about her needing his help. What happens if the rest of Westeros decides to rise up against her?  That may not be so easy.  Jon can possibly help her achieve her goals with minimum resistance and bloodshed.

Ofc Jon can help her.. But who can really rise up against her and her dragons? She is already in war with the Reach, the Westerlands,the Riverlands(not sure about this, no idea what happened to Catelyn brother.. I think Lannisters hold them), the Iron Islands.. She is working in an alliance-bend the knee thing with Jon to take North and the Vale.. Who is left to rebel? Stormlands seems to disappeared from the map, and Dorne was at her side even though we will probably not see any leader there(either one of the 5 remaining sandsnakes or another lord).

[SansaJonRule]

14 hours ago, cade said:

I strongly disagree that Jon should bend the knee at this point, and it's clear he's not resisting out of pride. Dany just doesn't know him nearly well enough to know that, just as some have pointed out that Jon didn't understand Mance when he asked Mance the same question (one of numerous parallels the writers have drawn between Dany and Jon over the years). Every other leader Dany has come across has been prideful and far worse than just that, so Jon takes some adjusting to.

It's very telling that while Dany is lambasted by so many for telling Jon to bend the knee, Tyrion has gotten virtually no criticism for telling Jon to do the exact same thing. Even though, unlike Dany, Tyrion actually knows Jon, having traveled with him to the Wall. The Lord Commander of the Night's Watch informed Tyrion of eyewitness accounts of the White Walkers from Wildlings and the Night's Watch member Ned executed. Aemon and Benjen also strongly suggested to Tyrion that the White Walkers were a real and grave threat.

Even after Tyrion comes to believe Jon, he doesn't advise Dany to cede the North to Jon, nor does he advise her to go fight for the North. Just the opposite, he continues pushing to besiege King's Landing. In fairness, at least Tyrion did vouch for Jon and ask Dany to let him mine dragonglass. Dany quickly agreed and even offered Jon all the men and resources he'd require.

Davos acknowledged to Dany that what Jon was saying "sounds like nonsense." Tyrion told Jon, "She's not about to head north to fight an enemy she's never seen on a word of a man she doesn't know after a single meeting. That's not a reasonable thing to ask." Yet Dany is the fool, ridiculed for being Mother of Dragons and yet not believing in the "Army of the Dead" so quickly and on so little evidence. There are dragon skulls from only 150 or so years ago. Everyone knows they existed until relatively recently. There's no proof that White Walkers ever did, and even Ned said they hadn't been seen "for thousands of years." He believed that Night's Watch deserter he beheaded was afflicted with "madness" because he'd claimed to have seen them and was trying to warn people about them.

Even still, Dany actually did make that connection herself, totally unprompted, when in only their second conversation she told Jon, "People thought dragons were gone forever but here they are. Perhaps we should all be examining what we think we know."

Even after their last talk, the best evidence she's seen is some ancient cave paintings that prove absolutely nothing about anything that's happened in thousands of years. Yet she still takes them very seriously and is already coming around to believing Jon, but it's still totally unreasonable at this point to expect her to believe the threat is nearly as great and imminent as Jon does. The Wall has stood strong for 8,000 years. What evidence is there that it's about to be breached? Jon has provided none.

Unless the threat from the North truly is extremely imminent, the first step should be eliminating the active threat from the South and uniting Westeros in common cause, not leaving Cersei control over the continent's bread basket and giving her, Euron and the Golden Company a prime opportunity to hit whatever survives of the North and Dany's army even if the White Walkers are defeated - assuming that Cersei would even wait that long to attack.

I, for one, don't have a problem with Dany not believing Jon right away, esp considering she did not grow up in Westeros.  That would have been crazy stupid story writing. My problem with her is her arrogance in general.  I think that is what most people are lambasting her for.  She sets foot on Westerosi soil and names herself the rightful queen of the Seven Kingdoms, demanding everyone bend the knee immediately even though they know next to nothing about her.  After Jon and Davos told her why they were there, instead of asking for more information, she acts like she didn't even hear them. 

I am disappointed in Tyrion.  He has sworn fealty to Dany, yes, but as her Hand he should be advising her to take a more diplomatic approach with the lords of Westeros.  I wonder how much of it has to do with Cersei being on the throne now.  I can't help wondering if he would be advising Dany differently if it was still Tommen on the throne.

Dany is obviously listening though.  She caught Davos' comment about Jon taking a knife in the heart, and she really was quick to admit that perhaps they should all reconsider what they believe to be true.  I disagree that the drawings on the wall are not strong evidence of the last war with the WW.  In our own world archeologists have learned a lot from cave drawings and such.

The threat is extremely imminent because the longer they wait, the larger the AofD gets.  There isn't anything wrong with Dany going up against the Lannister army right now since Jon needs to mine as much Dragonglass as possible before fighting the WW.   But she needs to be prepared to change her priority as soon as Jon gives her the word.

[Sergey Dukman]

Why Jon have to excuse himself? Because she has dragons? Wait til Loooooong Night....

 

[El Guapo]

58 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Yes, I stand corrected, she did only say the Red Keep.  I think I got it confused with the first time she threatened to burn the RK and KL.  Nevertheless, my point was that she needs people to counsel her against going dragon crazy and killing innocent people (the ones she claims to want to protect), making her "more of the same".  In this case the help he provided was good, persuasive counsel.

Sure, she could take KL without any help, that's not necessarily what Jon meant about her needing his help. What happens if the rest of Westeros decides to rise up against her?  That may not be so easy.  Jon can possibly help her achieve her goals with minimum resistance and bloodshed.

She has never threatened to burn Kings Landing.  Not once.  That was Yara in the first episode who suggested they hit Kings Landing with everything they had and get the war over in one full attack. Ellaria and Olenna seemed to be on board with that plan as well

[Johan Wehtje]

9 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Yes they are. 

At the time of the Conquest they were attached to the Riverlands because they were ruled by the Same King (Hoare, whose line ended at Harrenhall).

AC they were detached from the Riverlands (given to the Tullys), and their relationship to the Iron Throne was as separate Vassals, all this info was in the original link to the wiki.

[cade]

 

[Mikkel]

6 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

At the time of the Conquest they were attached to the Riverlands because they were ruled by the Same King (Hoare, whose line ended at Harrenhall).

AC they were detached from the Riverlands (given to the Tullys), and their relationship to the Iron Throne was as separate Vassals, all this info was in the original link to the wiki.

Yes, exactly, so if any particular region is not "one of the Seven Kingdoms", it's the Riverlands. Even though the Targaryens ruled the Riverlands before they ruled Dorne.

It's really very simple though: At the time of Aegon's Conquest, the Riverlands was not a kingdom, and had not been for a while - they did not have their own King - and after the Conquest, Aegon was not going to go out and "make" any new kings, or kingdoms, rather he let the previous kings continue to rule, as Lords, as long as they swore fealty (well, the ones he didn't burn, anyhow).

[I prefer summer]

On 2017-08-09 at 9:14 AM, The Great Udder said:

Exactly.

Nothing is to be gained by either party in debating the whole matter over and over again. Their actually both losing time and resource by insisting on this battle of wills.

To be fair though, even if Jon has already pledge the North's loyalty and support to her claim (can't remember if he already did) it is wise of her to show a little bit of caution.

Realistically, they can't be plain comrades (really rooting for this solution) by virtue of a few days of interaction, they can either:

a.) marry (if GRRM/D&D would like to follow the fairy-tale story type)

b.) exchange valuable resource ( e.g. like theon being fostered by the starks to prevent greyjoy rebellion)

Jon is big on equality per his experience with the wildings so a fair and equal trade would be a more persuasive argument than bending the knee.

It doesn't always have to be a zero-sum game. There surely is a way that both parties can win.

Some great points being made on both sides, although I think some views are driven by love/hate for the two characters.

 

I actually like both of them, and I can see both perspectives. Yes, Jon has made unpopular decisions before, and they have not worked out well for him. And while Danyiss growing on him, she hasn't proven herself to him to the same degree as she has to her loyal followers.

Dany may have the whole "I was born to rule" thing going on, but that's a logical way for her to think, given the times she lives in and how she was brought up. But there is another reason she wants the Westerosi to swear loyalty to her - survival. Think of all the Southerners who have tried to kill her up to now. And, for all she knows, Ned Stark was on board with Robert's plan to murder her. So, she has very good reason to mistrust Jon.

I think that both leaders will realize that they have to get past their impasse for the greater good. They need a united Westeros (and maybe Essos?) to fight the WW - fighting on two fronts, and giving the NK more dead bodies for his army isn't going to help - and they need to get to the "only fight that matters" sooner rather than later. I think they will find a compromise (someone suggested a Dornish solution) to protect both their interests.

At the risk of bringing down ridicule for quoting another show, there is a scene in S01E04 of Outlander that provides an example. Jamie risks angering both his uncles, and his own life, when being asked to swear fealty to one, which would put his in conflict with the second for succession to the leadership of the clan. This is how he sidesteps the problem and keeps the peace:

"Colum MacKenzie, I come to you as kinsman and as ally. But I give you no vow, for my oath is pledged to the name that I bear," Jamie tells his uncle, as the sound of metal echoes through the hall as the clansmen grab their daggers. "I give you my obedience as kinsman and as Laird and I hold myself bound to your word, so long as my feet rest on the lands of the clan MacKenzie."
 

I think Jon will offer Dany an alliance and support of her claim to the IT, while maintaining some kind of independence for the North. And yes, I think a marriage of convenience may be in the cards. Dany left Daario in anticipation of a marriage of convenience. And heirs are less important to the immediate future than cementing this alliance.

 

 

[purple-eyes]

Jon will not need to bend his knee after people knows he is a trueborn son of Rhaegar. He has much better claim so Dany will need to bend her knee to him. 

[I prefer summer]

On 2017-08-10 at 10:16 PM, WCPhan said:

I have a little different take.

i think if Jon bends the knee, that would mean if she calls for his army to fight Cersai then they have to obey and leave the north wide open for the Army of the Dead. 

One of the things I see happening is Jon Snow, Tyrion, Davos and Dany going to KL and meeting with Cersai and Jamie and try and make her believe in the threat of the Night King.

Interesting, although it would be even riskier than going to Dragonstone. But I did wonder if the preview was purposely misleading us: when Varys tells Tyrion "You need to make her listen," is he talking about Dany or Cercei? Or is Jamie in that conversation, and are they trying to convince him to make his sister see reason?