Jon should bend his knees.

[Wolf's Bane]

On 8/7/2017 at 10:39 AM, Heavy D said:

Jon has no more excuses.  Queen Daenerys agreed to help.  Jon should bend his knees and apologize to Dany for being stubborn.  It's time to clear the rubble in the north that is Sansa.  Bend your knees, Jon.

Jon's pride is getting in the way.  I would go so far as to say he should to Daenerys apologize for his behavior.  Jon is an asshole.

[CleverNames AllTaken]

Not sure why there's so much Jon hating going on here. I don't think he should not will bend the knee to Dany. 

Dany may have dragons and may seem to have all the power, but her power derives from a foreign invading force. The only reason why she had Westeros followers weren't because they were in love with Dany or the idea of another Targ ruler, but because they each hated Cersei (or feared Euron). Jon, on the other hand, came to power by displaying his abilities and willingness to do the right thing. 

He didn't campaign to be Lord Commander, but his brothers elected him anyways (against his wishes)

He refused Stannis's offer to be made Lord Stark of Winterfell (a legitimized Stark was basically his lifelong dream)

He didn't proclaim himself King (like every other leader in this story, sans Rob), his countrymen appointed him as their King. 

While he may not follow every wish of the Lords of the North, he does need to maintain their trust. When Dany says they will accept her rule if he tells them so, she's missing the whole point and is acting like an entitled brat. Jon's existence is based on doing the right thing and learning from his mistakes (and the mistakes of those in his life...as Sansa so aptly told him that he needs to be better than Need and Rob). If Jon immediately bends the knee, then he'll lose the support of the North much like Rob did. He didn't bend the knee to Stannis but still managed to earn his trust and respect. I imagine he will do the same with Dany, especially when they do their trip North of the Wall. 

[Capo Ferro]

29 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Stroke her own ego?  She is the one providing herself, the Dragons, and her armies to help out Jon and the North.  Again, I think once it becomes clear that the White Walker threat is real, and once she honestly believes it and sees it for herself, she might back off this demand.  I don't see this as stroking her own ego at all- she is making the same calculated decision about what is best for her and her people as Jon is.  

 

Well, we'd have to see the specifics of what exactly "bending the knee" would involve, but if Jon went back to Winterfell and actually made the argument for doing it, it's possible he could convince them to do so.  We don't know this, because again Jon has outright refused so far.  Jon's been pretty open in terms of debating decisions around the Northern Lords so I don't see why he wouldn't do the same here (assuming he could i.e. disregarding issues of timing and whether he's actually still a "prisoner" on Dragonstone)

 

Bending the knee is submitting to the rule of an unknown southern queen, daughter of the mad king and yielding his people to them.  Some of the people he represents -- at least sees as his responsibility, the wildlings, would die before doing so.  A great many others likely have similar views on Targeryan kingship after the experience with aerys.  

There is certainly a strong argument to be made that the prudent thing for Jon to do is trust the Queen, yield to her and accept her offered protection. 

I just don't think the show has been building up to that.  There's been a lot of discussion of kingship and where the right to rule comes from and Daenerys is repeatedly being asked whether she wants to become a tyrant like her father and each time sees the force of the question.  It seems to me that the show is pointed toward her realization that she has to win loyalty rather than demand it and eventually will find a way to do so.

[Steelborn]

He will bend the knee, but to do something entirely different.

[Lord Godric]

45 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Stroke her own ego?  She is the one providing herself, the Dragons, and her armies to help out Jon and the North.  Again, I think once it becomes clear that the White Walker threat is real, and once she honestly believes it and sees it for herself, she might back off this demand.  I don't see this as stroking her own ego at all- she is making the same calculated decision about what is best for her and her people as Jon is.  

Yes, why force him to bend the knee? Why stress that you were destined to rule the Seven Kingdoms and will not tolerate someone calling themselves the king in the north? Why not an alliance with Jon to help each other instead of making him subservient to you. Dany insisting on him bending the knee is more of the same sense of entitlement we've seen from her character for quite a long time now. 

[Lord Godric]

9 minutes ago, Steelborn said:

He will bend the knee, but to do something entirely different.

Dany probably is more familiar with the Lord's Kiss than Ygritte was. 

[Lord Godric]

11 minutes ago, Capo Ferro said:

 

Bending the knee is submitting to the rule of an unknown southern queen, daughter of the mad king and yielding his people to them.  Some of the people he represents -- at least sees as his responsibility, the wildlings, would die before doing so.  A great many others likely have similar views on Targeryan kingship after the experience with aerys.  

There is certainly a strong argument to be made that the prudent thing for Jon to do is trust the Queen, yield to her and accept her offered protection. 

I just don't think the show has been building up to that.  There's been a lot of discussion of kingship and where the right to rule comes from and Daenerys is repeatedly being asked whether she wants to become a tyrant like her father and each time sees the force of the question.  It seems to me that the show is pointed toward her realization that she has to win loyalty rather than demand it and eventually will find a way to do so.

I hope so. Because I have been so frustrated with the lack of this realization so far. Perhaps it is just because the show has been delaying it and delaying it until the White Walkers are a real threat, but this seems like something Dany should have realized so long ago. Especially since she was the one who talked the talk about breaking the system and freeing the people for so long. But she falls into the same trap of "I want what is mine" which makes her look no different than Cersei or Viserys. 

[theMADdestScientist_]

11 hours ago, Camara said:

it's irrelavant if he bends the knee as the Northern Lords will just kick him out,

No one kicked Torrhen Stark out of the North after he bend the knee to Aegon.

[Capo Ferro]

7 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

I hope so. Because I have been so frustrated with the lack of this realization so far. Perhaps it is just because the show has been delaying it and delaying it until the White Walkers are a real threat, but this seems like something Dany should have realized so long ago. Especially since she was the one who talked the talk about breaking the system and freeing the people for so long. But she falls into the same trap of "I want what is mine" which makes her look no different than Cersei or Viserys. 

She has definitely often been a prick and definitely still shares with Viserys a belief that her right to rule is established by her bloodline. And she is reluctant to abandon her family legacy and let the empire of seven kingdoms her family built become seven independent kingdoms again leaving her the queen of nothing.

But I think it's not surprising that she is still where she is at this point in the game because it does seem to be the central philosophical problem of the show.  Once it is resolved, the rest is just cleanup -- a spectacular battle or two, some satisfying deaths and then done. 

The real issue is will she finally land in the camp of Joffrey, Viserys, Cersei, Stannis etc who demand obedience and power by right (either birthright it because they happen to hold the throne); the realist camp of Littlefinger, Olenna, maybe Sansa, sometimes Cersei and maybe Tywin and Tyrionthat sees obedience and power as what you manipulate people into giving, or the Jon Snow, maybe Tywin and Tyrion, Missandei school of power as the consequence of winning the respect and love of the people by protecting them from threats.  And it seems to me that the army of the dead is the threat that allows her to become the benevolent protector she likes to think of herself as being and that Cersei and Littlefinger as leading representatives of the other schools will be their own undoing.

[starklover]

4 hours ago, Nic. said:

Moot point.  Everyone will be rallying around Jon in the end for the fight against the White Walkers.  Not to mention, the show isn't exactly being subtle with hints to Jon's true heritage which only makes it more likely that in the end Dany will be the one to do the actual bending. 

shes not going to be happy if she bends to him.

[Illiterati]

1 minute ago, princess brittany said:

shes not going to be happy if she bends to him.

I don't know, Ygritte seemed pretty satisfied.

[starklover]

i think a marriage would be better then him bending the knee

[El Guapo]

13 minutes ago, Capo Ferro said:

She has definitely often been a prick and definitely still shares with Viserys a belief that her right to rule is established by her bloodline. And she is reluctant to abandon her family legacy and let the empire of seven kingdoms her family built become seven independent kingdoms again leaving her the queen of nothing.

 

Oh yeah. She should just accept that she was driven from her home and just continue to live in permanent exile.. Based on this logic I guess Sansa and Jon should have left the North last season and traveled to I don't Pentos or something and just accept that the Boltons live in their home now.  

[Samwell_Tarly]

11 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

I don't know, Ygritte seemed pretty satisfied.

Youve got it the wrong way round :S 

Jon bent to Ygritte not the other way round.

[lakin1013]

3 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Dany has the resources that Jon needs.  That bastard hasn't given anything in return.  Dany should absolutely withold support until Jon, Sansa, and the north bend their collective knees.  Jon is too proud.  We need to see that jerk humbled down.  He is the one who knows the threat.  

"The bastard hasn't given anything in return."  You mean anything like alerting Dany to a monstrous threat that is coming her way, informing her of the nature of the white walkers and what needs to be done, or telling Dany how to kill the WWs.  Jon did all those things.  Jon has provided Dany with a tremendous amount of valuable information.  In wartime, solid, valid information is valuable.  

[Nic.]

29 minutes ago, princess brittany said:

shes not going to be happy if she bends to him.

The romance will be smoothing that over along with Jon's Targaryen claim.

[snow is the man]

So why should jon bend the knee. She said she would help if the north bent the knee and the only thing in the way was his pride but if she truly believed the threat and wouldn't help unless he bent the knee isn't she just as bad? At least jon is doing it because his people want him to rule and sure as heck don't want a targ ruling them. Dany just wants to conqueror.

[King Louis II (KLII)]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Come on, guys, it is quite clear that he will bend the knee. That is inevitable. But there is no sense in discussing the details since the show doesn't make any sense.

Any sane guy would have asked Dany for help against 'the army of the dead' and offered his own hand in marriage in exchange, giving her the North as a bride gift (and becoming the consort or co-ruler of the Queen on the Iron Throne in the process of the whole thing).

I think this is exactly what is going to happen... (the marriage). But they had to build some tension, which I think makes some sense...

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/8/2017 at 2:33 PM, RhaenysB said:

They would be, if I in fact assumed them. Which I don't. 

Daenerys can't defeat the white walkers alone and without the North, but the North can't defeat the white walkers alone and without her either. I have learned on this board that I must give a dumb impression, but how exactly would the 'we need to stand together if we hope to defeat our common enemy' mantra go past me when Davos and Jon have been beating this one line in their every scene? The whole POINT of the white walker issue is that it's resolution requires houses and characters who previously fought against one another to put past transgressions behind and stand together. Hence, the northern lords need to take the stick out of the arses and accept Daenerys. 

Daenerys will have an incentive as soon as she realizes how great this threat is. The first time she heard of this idea was from an unknown man who rules half the land she wants to conquer and asks for her help without offering anything in return. Is she at this point supposed to throw away her westeros map and run to help a man he doesn't know against an enemy she never heard of? 

And I'm sure everybody will have higher regard for the role of Bran in this as soon as he starts doing something other than sitting, brooding and giving creepy hints about how he knows everything, without saying literally anything of importance. 

I don't know if you watched episode 2, that's exactly what Daenerys did. She acknowledged Aerys's crimes and condemned him as an evil man and separated herself from him. 

Yes, that's perfectly correct, the only difference is that Daenerys didn't ask for the masters help while changing the regime to their disadvantage. This is essentially the same as Mance Rayder asking the NW and Stannis to let them through the Wall, give them land to farm and live on, but they won't kneel. Give us everything we need, but we won't do what you ask. That's not how life goes.

and the unquestionable fact that Daenerys is a stuck-up, conceited, arrogant bitch doesn't justify the north's reluctance to meet her terms. 

Okay, but once you acknowledge, that Dany is likely to lose by herself against the WWs, or even if she prevails against them in some manner, but the WWs would inflict significant damage on her kingdom, then I'd submit the best play for Jon is not to bend, if we're assuming here that all he cares about is maintaining Northern independence or his crown (and I’m not saying that should be the only factor in reality), while defeating the Others.

Putting a little analytical structure over this:

Let's say both Jon and Dany know the others payoffs for taking certain course of action. And let's say Jon makes a decision about whether to not bend or to bend and Dany knows that decision (ie its in her information set) and then, after Jon, she has to take an action.

Let's say Jon's action set is bend or not bend [B,NB]

And let's say Dany's action set is to help or not to help [H, NH]

Supposing Jon plays NB and then Dany plays NH. If that happens then let’s say Jon's payoff is 0 because everyone in the North, including Jon, dies. And let’s say Dany's payoff is c. It's a bit higher than 0, but only a little bit higher because even if she prevails against the WW’s by herself it’s likely to come at significant cost to her people and to her kingdom.

So we have:
NB,NH -> 0, c

Supposing Dany however decides to play H to Jon's NB. Will say Jon's payoff is j1 and Dany's payoff is d2.

Then we have:
NB,H->j1,d2

Now supposing Jon plays B and Dany's accordingly plays H. In this scenario Jon gets j2 and Dany gets d3. 

We then have::
B,H->j2,d3.

Now finally let's suppose Jon plays B and Dany plays NH. In this case Jon's payoff is at least 0 and probably a bit lower cause he gets screwed and he and the North still gets creamed, accordingly will say it’s like -1 and Dany gets c (similar to when Jon played NB). So we have:

B,NH->-1,c

Now Jon's payoff structure is j1>j2>0>-1

Now if you think d2>c, making Dany’s payoff structure look like d3>d2>c then best play for Jon to make is not to bend. And the reason is because Dany is still better off helping, than not helping. And in fact, her threats of not helping aren’t credible (again, I’m assuming full information and rationality, in the sense both parties are looking to maximize their payoffs).

I’m not saying this is “the” model of the situation here. I’m rather suggesting it’s “a” model. And considering this, it’s not clear to me that Jon does have to bend.

The fact of the matter is that Jon does have good reasons about being leery of re-committing the Starks and the North to the Targaryens. I mean let’s just suppose that Dany hadn’t made it, and crazy old Viserys showed up with Dragons. Would anybody, at least sane people, think that Jon should just drop to his knees before Viserys. No they wouldn’t or at least sane people wouldn’t. And since Jon doesn’t really know Dany, before she got to Westeros, it’s at least reasonable for him to feel her out to make sure she isn’t really crazy and cruel like her daddy.

And even though I get that lots of people really like Dany, there are issues here of national rights of self determination and the rights of people to separate themselves, permanently, from tyrants that rule them. I’m not sure why the North is somehow really obligated to follow Targaryens after Aerys. Of course I am not saying either that the best course of action is for the North to attempt to remain independent forever. It’s possible that they would be better off rejoining the Seven Kingdoms under Dany, so long as they can be reasonably certain she’s not a nut or won’t turn into a nut and if one of her progeny turns into a nut, they have reasonable means to protect themselves from any future nuttery. What I am saying though is I don’t particularly see the need for Jon to just flop down on the ground the moment he meets Dany or that he should just cave in when Dany tries to muscle him.

[snow is the man]

1 hour ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

No one kicked Torrhen Stark out of the North after he bend the knee to Aegon.

That was before aery's and then the iron throne under other was horrible for the north as well. It isn't just about the targs ruling but the southern kings and queen ruling them. They have been thorugh too much crap since then