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Heavy D

Jon should bend his knees.

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9 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I'm honestly thinking this whole thing won't even matter by the end of the season.  Dany will realize the White Walker threat is real (perhaps they even get past the Wall), and her and Jon will both realize that "bending the knee" is irrelevant until they defeat the White Walkers.

Yeah, that's what I hope for.

3 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

It won't take long for Sansa and Jon to bend their stiff knees.  Jon is a shitty battle commander.  He would have lost his past battles if Stannis and Littlefinger had not rescued his hairy ass.  Daenerys should lead the armies of the living against the NK. 

I don't recall, did we ever get to see Jon's ass? If we didn't, then you have access to some secret info!

3 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I think Jon should keep standing up to Dany until she proves herself worthy of knee bending. Dany should recognize she is bulldozing the only ally she has and maybe learn to share just a little.

 

2 hours ago, xander_blackfyre said:

Exactly she has not shown Jon anything that she is worthy of him bending the knee to her, on the other hand the wildlings who have been enemies of westeros in particular to men of the north forever chose to follow Jon why?  Because he proved he was worthy enough to be followed his actions proved that. 

Couldn't say it better, guys.

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah, that's what I hope for.

I don't recall, did we ever get to see Jon's ass? If we didn't, then you have access to some secret info!

 

Couldn't say it better, guys.

I think we saw his ass when he was resurrected by Melisandre :P... Not sure though...

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6 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

It would have been nice for it to go that way, but 1) they have to compress things due to time constraints and 2) as arrogant as she has become, I don't think she would have done it.  Remember she summoned all the lords of westeros to come to her and bend the knee.  3) Jon recognized that because she believes herself to be queen, she would have been insulted if anyone but the KitN answered him summons.

Jon was not given her full summons. Tyrion left the "bend the knee" bit out on purpose. He disrespected Jon, lied to him because he felt him weak and easy to fool, giving Dany an automatic foothold on Westeros once Jon, if he came, through the North.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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9 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

The north will be the area that sits in the path of the WWs.  They're most vulnerable.  Jon should know this and set his pride aside.  Dany is actually being generous.  She allowed Jon to mine the dragon glass.  No other ruler would allow a rebel to do such a thing.  Jon is the one being pig-headed

Correct.  And if you're the person who is supposed to have seen the threat you make the compromise to get the help that you need.  Jon is being stubborn.  

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5 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

I disagree.  Jon was raised by Melisandre, not by the NK.  Also wights are totally mindless, controlled by the NK.  Jon clearly has all his mental faculties.

Ice wights are mindless and raised by the NK. 

Fire wights are like Berric and raised by red priests/priestesses.

then there are the alchemy wights like the mountain.  Raised by science. :)

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15 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Ice wights are mindless and raised by the NK. 

Fire wights are like Berric and raised by red priests/priestesses.

then there are the alchemy wights like the mountain.  Raised by science. :)

Both the book and the show disagree with you:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wights

"Wights are dead men or creatures raised up by the Others, seemingly when touched by the cold that accompanies them"

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Wights

"A wight is a reanimated corpse, either human or animal, raised from death by the White Walkers to act as their minions."

 

Edited by Attitude

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7 minutes ago, Attitude said:

Both the book and the show disagree with you:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wights

"Wights are dead men or creatures raised up by the Others, seemingly when touched by the cold that accompanies them"

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Wights

"A wight is a reanimated corpse, either human or animal, raised from death by the White Walkers to act as their minions."

 

Martin seems to agree with me, though he just refers to Berric as a wight.

Martin's comments

The Fire wights are no longer human. They aren't a happy ending. Hell, Berric caused his sword to burst into flame by coating it with his blood.  

Maybe the show and book will call them something else.  Who knows. But Martin calls them wights.  The show is probably going to diminish their more grisly nature. They removed LSH after all.

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1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

And if you're the person who is supposed to have seen the threat you make the compromise to get the help that you need.  

He did that once already and it got him killed by his own men.  One of the themes of the season has been learning from the past so I think that he learned a lesson before and doesn't he wants to go through that again.

 

Ok this thought hit me last night Dany fashions herself as the true Queen of the 7 kingdoms right? In her long winded introduction Missandei said one of Dany's titles was protector of the 7 kingdoms correct?  Well if she was the true queen that she fashions herself to be would she shouldn't her first priority be to PROTECT the 7 Kingdoms, deal with the great threat to the realm.  Nope her first priority to make sure everyone know she's the baddest b***h.

Jon has said it himself he is not her enemy, but she seems to see him as one, Jon seem to be the true protector of the realm.  He came to get help to save the realm she sits there squabbling over politics and trying to put Jon and anyone else in their place.  He wants to put the politics aside for now and deal with the problem, deal with who bends the knee to who after the greater threat to the realm is neutralized, that is what a true ruler would do.  Its like the house is burning down Jon is saying to her lets put out the fire while Dany is arguing about what she wants to do with the spare bedroom.

One more thing along the line of putting people in their place, or should I say she wants to put men in their place.  Yes I am going there I thought back, to her dealing with people and she definitely has a different attitude when she is dealing with men as opposed to women.  Just look at the throne room scene in Mereen with Theon and Yara, when she thought it was Theon coming to ask her help to get the Iron Islands back she had a bit of an attitude but then when she finds out it it Yara's claim she all of a sudden perks up and even loosens up.  She never asked for Yara to bend the knee she shook her hand, now it was not shown but do you think that Olenna was asked to bend the knee(not like she would have done it anyway), what about Ellaria do you think she was asked?  She never asked Jon she demanded it.

Dany was looking to assert dominance from the moment Jon set foot on Dragonstone as displayed by all the guards and that long long long introduction, and no doubt the dragons flying around, it just screams look and listen I am your superior.  Jon on the other hand comes with the attitude of lets talk ruler to ruler, I am not here on behalf on myself but on behalf of all the people of westeros(allies, friends, and enemies even if they if they know it or not) and beyond the wall, I don't want your help for myself but for everyone, we need each others help. 

Edited by xander_blackfyre

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39 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Martin seems to agree with me, though he just refers to Berric as a wight.

Martin's comments

The Fire wights are no longer human. They aren't a happy ending. Hell, Berric caused his sword to burst into flame by coating it with his blood.  

Maybe the show and book will call them something else.  Who knows. But Martin calls them wights.  The show is probably going to diminish their more grisly nature. They removed LSH after all.

Good point. I guess there is no higher word than from the mastermind himself.

Not sure if you can consider this canon though. Both in show and the books (at least as far as I know) wights are only mentioned in relation to the WW, not through other ways of resurrection (either the 'Beric/Jon' way (firegod) nor the 'Mountain' way (blood magic?)).

 

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22 minutes ago, xander_blackfyre said:

He did that once already and it got him killed by his own men.  One of the themes of the season has been learning from the past so I think that he learned a lesson before and doesn't he wants to go through that again.

 

Ok this thought hit me last night Dany fashions herself as the true Queen of the 7 kingdoms right? In her long winded introduction Missandei said one of Dany's titles was protector of the 7 kingdoms correct?  Well if she was the true queen that she fashions herself to be would she shouldn't her first priority be to PROTECT the 7 Kingdoms, deal with the great threat to the realm.  Nope her first priority to make sure everyone know she's the baddest b***h. 

Yes but by not kneeling Jon is telling her that she is not the Protector of his kingdom. Yet he expects her to protect them anyway against an enemy that only has seen. I am not sure why this is so hard to understand. As far as your fire analogy goes. Yes he is telling her to help put out this fire, a fire that she can't see and nobody else can see but Jon.  However if Dany could see this fire herself there is no doubt in my mind she will go put it out.

Edited by El Guapo

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9 minutes ago, Attitude said:

Good point. I guess there is no higher word than from the mastermind himself.

Not sure if you can consider this canon though. Both in show and the books (at least as far as I know) wights are only mentioned in relation to the WW, not through other ways of resurrection (either the 'Beric/Jon' way (firegod) nor the 'Mountain' way (blood magic?)).

 

I totally agree with that.  We probably can with the books but this is the show and I think HBO is downplaying the nature of Berric's and Jon's resurrection.

I do seem to recall a scene with Edd asking Jon if he's "one of them now", and Jon replied with something about not knowing.  

I need to go back and rewatch that episode. 

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10 hours ago, Lord Godric said:

Yes, she says the Red Keep but it is in reference to their earlier conversation, as Tyrion makes clear in this scene. In that previous scene Tyrion explains that "if we turn the dragons loose, tens of thousands will die." Dany herself notes that she is "not here to be queen of the ashes" meaning she knows that attacking Cersei in the Red Keep means destruction not just of the Red Keep but on King's Landing.

When Dany asks Jon's advice on what to do he understands the repercussions of "just attacking the Red Keep" by saying that people will not love her if she "melts castles and burns cities." It is clear to everyone that attacking the Red Keep does not simply mean the Red Keep, but it involves collateral damage throughout King's Landing that will bring the city to ashes and kill tens of thousands of people. And although Dany seemed to believe that was unreasonable when she had other ways of claiming the throne, now that she doesn't she can't come to that conclusion on her own. 

That's not being good at ruling, that's brute force and slaughter to get your enemies to do what you want them to do. The second she can leave Meereen for Westeros she does, leaving only Daario to hold the peace there. And the only way peace will hold in Slaver's Bay is through some heavy artificiality, because we've seen what happens when the immediate threat of Dany and her dragons is gone, things fall to shit. 

 

I want to like Dany because I know that she is going to end up in a position of power, and it's damned easy to like the character that you are supposed to be rooting for.  But the show has done a horrible disservice to her character (although to be fair, Martin has not got her to a point where she is worthy of ruling either). We are told that we have to love Dany and that she is doing the right thing, but her actions have not shown that. She made a mess out of Slaver's Bay (again, the only reason that any peace is Slaver's Bay is holding is because the show wants to be done with it and not have to worry about the repercussions of Dany's departure), she has been outsmarted in every move she has made in Westeros so far, and she doesn't understand why she can't just set her dragons loose.

 

Again - she didn't attack the Red Keep or KL at all! She listened to Jon and attacked an army in the field, just like back in Mereen she attacked no cities. just the Navy. As to the crime of even thinking idea of attacking the Red Keep, (which again she did not end up doing) the point remains that it is different from saying - which you did - that she wanted to kill everyone in Kings Landing.

Quote

Good at ruling? Indeed we must be watching different shows because Dany's attempts to free Slaver's Bay were horribly bloody ordeals in which not only former slavers die, but many former slaves and civilians are killed. The Sons of the Harpy slaughter civilians in Meereen and the city suffers from the bombardment of the other slaves cities that she "liberated" (which also have seen lots of bloodshed after Dany simply leaves thinking the peace she has established will continue after she is gone). Dany ends up getting out of the whole mess in Essos simply by setting her dragons loose and burning the Slaver's ships.

That's not being good at ruling, that's brute force and slaughter to get your enemies to do what you want them to do. The second she can leave Meereen for Westeros she does, leaving only Daario to hold the peace there. And the only way peace will hold in Slaver's Bay is through some heavy artificiality, because we've seen what happens when the immediate threat of Dany and her dragons is gone, things fall to shit. 

When I talk about Dany Derangement Syndrome you exhibit the classic signs of it when  you make her responsible for every atrocity her enemies commit. First off the initial liberation was accomplished pretty quickly, and other than as a trade good the dragon's played little part in it. Secondly she did not leave for Westeros as soon as she could, she stayed to make it work, she tried conciliation, she engaged good councillors. When she was taken away by Drogon and captured by the Dothraki she turned the table and established herself as supreme Khaleesi without Dragons, then used the Dothraki to help lift the seige of Mereen. She burned a few ships, but captured most of them. And she left Daario AND the 2 thousand strong Second Sons with detailed orders to manage the transition to self rule of the Cities. It's just nonsense that she has resorted to Dragons all the time, she locked them up when they killed a child. the Slavers were decisively broken, the man she left in charge is fanatically loyal to her and commands the only sizable military force left in those parts. Of course she used brute force! Did she try conciliation first? yes. Did Tyrion make a pact with the Masters that they broke? Do we know from our own history that reconstructing societies ravaged by slavery is difficult, and does not happen overnight? How does it make her a bad ruler to end slavery, and then persist with a variety of approaches until that sticks? Varys, Tyrion, Missandei, Ser Barristen Selmy - all characters constructed as having a fairly solid moral core whilst also being highly intelligent and far from niave regard her record in Essos as grounds for believing totally in her.  

Quote

She's not a good ruler, and she has done nothing to show that she has the capacity to be a good ruler other than blow shit up with her dragons. If that is the kind of ruler she wants to be, fine. But the show is pretending that she is the savior that will change the dynamics of the entire system of power in Westeros. And she has never shown the ability to be able to do anything like that. 

Again she has used the dragons in battle twice (In Astapor Drogon burned the Slave master and some penants on a wall, that coup was fought by the unsullied on her orders.) You simply ignore the the alliance building , her ability to attract and retain a top flight retinue of advisors, her ability to inspire fanatical devotion in her soldiers and the fact that aside from Jon she is the only leader to both express and take concrete steps to improve the welfare of the least advantaged. I don't know what standard you are holding her to, but in the world of the show and books the only real standard is the other alternatives to her - and in that short list only Jon really measures up. 

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On 8/7/2017 at 7:39 AM, Heavy D said:

Jon should bend his knees.

You're right. Dragonglass is heavy, if he isn't careful he could put his back out. Bend the knees, Jon!

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1 hour ago, xander_blackfyre said:

He did that once already and it got him killed by his own men.  One of the themes of the season has been learning from the past so I think that he learned a lesson before and doesn't he wants to go through that again.

 

Ok this thought hit me last night Dany fashions herself as the true Queen of the 7 kingdoms right? In her long winded introduction Missandei said one of Dany's titles was protector of the 7 kingdoms correct?  Well if she was the true queen that she fashions herself to be would she shouldn't her first priority be to PROTECT the 7 Kingdoms, deal with the great threat to the realm.  Nope her first priority to make sure everyone know she's the baddest b***h.

Jon has said it himself he is not her enemy, but she seems to see him as one, Jon seem to be the true protector of the realm.  He came to get help to save the realm she sits there squabbling over politics and trying to put Jon and anyone else in their place.  He wants to put the politics aside for now and deal with the problem, deal with who bends the knee to who after the greater threat to the realm is neutralized, that is what a true ruler would do.  Its like the house is burning down Jon is saying to her lets put out the fire while Dany is arguing about what she wants to do with the spare bedroom.

One more thing along the line of putting people in their place, or should I say she wants to put men in their place.  Yes I am going there I thought back, to her dealing with people and she definitely has a different attitude when she is dealing with men as opposed to women.  Just look at the throne room scene in Mereen with Theon and Yara, when she thought it was Theon coming to ask her help to get the Iron Islands back she had a bit of an attitude but then when she finds out it it Yara's claim she all of a sudden perks up and even loosens up.  She never asked for Yara to bend the knee she shook her hand, now it was not shown but do you think that Olenna was asked to bend the knee(not like she would have done it anyway), what about Ellaria do you think she was asked?  She never asked Jon she demanded it.

Dany was looking to assert dominance from the moment Jon set foot on Dragonstone as displayed by all the guards and that long long long introduction, and no doubt the dragons flying around, it just screams look and listen I am your superior.  Jon on the other hand comes with the attitude of lets talk ruler to ruler, I am not here on behalf on myself but on behalf of all the people of westeros(allies, friends, and enemies even if they if they know it or not) and beyond the wall, I don't want your help for myself but for everyone, we need each others help. 

Nicely put! I agree with you 100%, even being a woman and a little bit of feminist myself!

Interestingly, Jon is the only man of power who showed her true respect by being truthful with her - without fear or slavelike adoration (I am hinting at Jorah here). The others were Tyrion (at the beginning) and Varys.

Edited by Gala

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If Jon bends the knee and the North and Vale say 'we don't care, we aren't bowing to a Targaryen' thereby losing Jon command of the North and Vale and losing Daenerys potential allies, I take it all of Jon's critics will say 'guess I was wrong, Daenerys made a big mistake there', yes? Or will that also be Jon's fault?

As it stands, Dany seems to believe Jon's claim but refuses to help the North unless Jon bends the knee, which says two things: 1) she cares more about recognition and her own pride than she does the people of the North and 2) she is arrogant enough to believe she can defeat the army of the dead beyond the Wall in the South with the entire population of the North added to it.

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9 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

If Jon bends the knee and the North and Vale say 'we don't care, we aren't bowing to a Targaryen' thereby losing Jon command of the North and Vale and losing Daenerys potential allies, I take it all of Jon's critics will say 'guess I was wrong, Daenerys made a big mistake there', yes? Or will that also be Jon's fault?

As it stands, Dany seems to believe Jon's claim but refuses to help the North unless Jon bends the knee, which says two things: 1) she cares more about recognition and her own pride than she does the people of the North and 2) she is arrogant enough to believe she can defeat the army of the dead beyond the Wall in the South with the entire population of the North added to it.

1) She told him that he will get all the help he needs.. Al he has to do is bend the knee.. Jon asks for everything and offers nothing to a Queen that he just met.

2) Dany haven't seen the army of the dead.. It sounds like a fairytale to her(and everyone else who hasn't seen it).. 

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13 minutes ago, Styl7 said:

1) She told him that he will get all the help he needs.. Al he has to do is bend the knee.. Jon asks for everything and offers nothing to a Queen that he just met.

2) Dany haven't seen the army of the dead.. It sounds like a fairytale to her(and everyone else who hasn't seen it).. 

Except she clearly seems to believe Jon after the cave. So number 2 is out. And yes, she will help him as long as he bends the knee and delivers her the North which Jon cannot guarantee. Jon can't guarantee that the North will follow him in his decision to bend the knee and he might lose them forever. Jon has perfectly good experience with what happens when you push the people who follow you too far; you get a knife in the heart. So, my points stand: Dany's insistence on Jon bending the knee when she believes his claims is both immoral and impractical.

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2 minutes ago, Styl7 said:

 

1) She told him that he will get all the help he needs.. Al he has to do is bend the knee.. Jon asks for everything and offers nothing to a Queen that he just met.

2) Dany haven't seen the army of the dead.. It sounds like a fairytale to her(and everyone else who hasn't seen it).. 

1) He's come to Dragonstone only for dragonglass: he suggested to his lords to go to Dany only after he received a raven from Sam. Before he didn't even consider going to Dany. He didn't have to give her nothing back. He just came to warn her and to get dragonglass, of course. Because, it is really childish to squable about the IT, when you soon won't have any kingdom to rule. Why else would he come if not to say the truth?

2) She hasn't, but her dragons were considered a fairytale by almost all the world too, no one believed. Until people saw them.

It might be justified for Dany to ask Jon to bend the knee, but Jon has the right not to. So far I see them as equals, probably, that's the whole point.

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