Damon_Tor Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: [Bran] has to help save mankind. Eeeeeeeeeh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordImp Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said: War is always bad, especially against an enemy you don't understand. In a GRRM world the only thing worse than losing a war is winning one, and the only way to win the game is not to play it. How to defeat the Others and the wights then? Not fight, well then they will all be undead eventually . In this case war is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon_Tor Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 1 minute ago, LordImp said: How to defeat the Mexicans then? Not fight, well then they will all be speaking Spanish eventually . In this case war is necessary. I'm pretty sure this is the metaphor GRRM is setting us up for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: That isn't a vision, that's a dream. There is nothing relevant about the future in that dream. It is a means to reprogram Jaime so that he does what Bloodraven wants him to do - save Brienne. I disagree, but you knew I would, didn't you? Yes, he goes back to save Brienne, but Bloodraven is really setting him up to play kingmaker, and the dream lays out Jaime's arc for us. Jaime has the dream after leaving Harrenhal, but before returning to rescue Brienne. We know this was inspired by Bloodraven since Jaime rested his head on a weirwood stump, as the author emphasized in the passage. He is forced down into a cave by hooded figures brandishing spears, a foreshadowing of Jaime's coming encounter with Catelyn. He is shoved into a pit with Brienne, who fears a bear, an obvious foreshadowing of Jaime's rescuing the maiden not so fair later in the chapter. Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey then appear. This predates the Red Wedding so Tywin and Joffrey are still alive at this point, but he and Joffrey will soon die, suffering deaths for which Jaime must later feel some responsibility. He released Tyrion, who killed Tywin, and he was the Lord Commander of Joffrey's KG but unable to protect him. That Cersei is with Tywin and Joffrey in the dream foreshadows a death for which Jaime must feel some responsibility, and of course, Jaime is the leading candidate to be Cersei's valonqar. The trio departs but not before Tywin gives Jaime a sword. In the dream, Brienne gets a sword like Jaime's and they both burn silvery blue, like ice, real ice, not the sword of course, but the allusion is there. This foreshadows Jaime giving Oathkeeper to Brienne. Keep in mind that the sword Tywin actually gives to Jaime is one of two from Ice and Jaime gives his sword, Oathkeeper, in turn, to Brienne. Then Bloodraven, who sided with the red dragon against the brother he loved (go on, I know you can't help yourself), sent Jaime's fallen Kingsguard brothers to hammer home Jaime's crime when he betrayed Aerys, notwithstanding Jaime's defense that Aerys planned to burn King's Landing. The vision that was Rhaegar reminds dreaming Jaime that he left his wife and children in Jaime's hands. Bloodraven seems to be preparing Jaime to raise up Jon Snow, Rhaegar's heir, as king. Jaime goes on to think about Rhaegar's children, and the debt he owes quite often... Quote And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon's mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone. Jaime I, Feast 8 Jaime identifies with the Warrior... Quote Why would Cersei need the Warrior? She has me. Jaime II, Feast 16 And the Warrior protects children... Quote The Warrior stands before the foe, protecting us where e'er we go. With sword and shield and spear and bow, he guards the little children. Samwell II, Storm 33 Jaime wants to make good on his failed duty to protect Rhaegar's children... Quote "... So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it." "There could be." "How, my lord? The old wounds never heal, my father says." "My father had a saying too. Never wound a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don't claim vengeance." "Their sons do," said Hoster, apologetically. "Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone." For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar's children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks. Jaime, Dance 48 At this point, Jaime doesn't believe that Rhaegar has any living children. But the George strongly hinted that Jamie will be a kingmaker... Quote "They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon." Jaime closed the White Book. "They called him Kingmaker." Jaime II, Feast 16 But perhaps Jaime will come to believe Aegon's claim? Here is a telling quote from Barristan on his path to redemption after taking Robert's pardon... Quote "That was when I knew that to redeem myself I must find the true king, and serve him loyally, with all the strength that still remained me." Daenerys II, Dance 11 And here's Jaime telling Lancel what he thought of Robert... Quote "Robert was no true king." Jaime IV, Feast 30 As the game of thrones begins, When we first saw Jaime, we saw that he was dressed in Lannister colors, crimson and gold... Quote He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. Jon I, Game 5 But when our attention turns toward the dance with dragons, the lion of his house is no longer roaring its defiance... Quote When he descended for the feast that night, Jaime Lannister wore a doublet of red velvet slashed with cloth-of-gold, and a golden chain studded with black diamonds. He had strapped on his golden hand as well, polished to a fine bright sheen. This was no fit place to wear his whites. His duty awaited him at Riverrun; a darker need had brought him here. Jaime IV, Feast 30 Black on Red, like the Blackfyre dragon. On the road with Illyrio to meet the noblest lad that ever lived, Tyrion describes a dream... Quote "I dreamed about the queen," he said. "I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons." Tyrion II, Dance 5 Getting back to Jaime's dream, notice that kingslayer observes that Brienne could be a "beauty" in a certain light. Assuming Jaime is Cersei's valonqar, this quote would tie in nicely with Jaime unwittingly supporting the black dragon, and casting down his sister... Quote Black had never been a happy color on her. With her fair skin, it made her look half a corpse herself. Cersei II, Feast 7 Of course, I can't imagine that either Aegon or Daenerys would ever pardon Jaime Lannister. On the road to meet the noblest lad that ever lived with Illyrio, Tyrion describes a dream... Quote "I dreamed about the queen," he said. "I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons. Tyrion II, Dance 5 Tyrion's dream could very well foreshadow the Kingslayer's fate. But we have this at the end of Jaime's dream... Quote The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in. Jaime VI, Storm 44 Perhaps, just maybe, Jaime and Brienne, armed with Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper, might end up battling for the dawn alongside Jon Snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Lord Varys said: The other guy isn't Littlefinger. That's Ilyn Payne or Gregor Clegane (I'm leaning towards the former, in light of the way Sansa reacts to first meeting the man). Interpreting the giant there as Littlefinger is using stuff that has only been established in ASoS and projecting it back to one of the earliest chapters of AGoT. That doesn't really work all that well, especially in light of the fact that this dream didn't exactly predict the future but rather covered the present. And Bran's dream isn't inspired by Bloodraven, it seem to be his own powers that give him the ability to see this stuff. Well, you must be right. Or not. Quote Fly, a voice whispered in the darkness, but Bran did not know how to fly, so all he could do was fall. . . . The ground was so far below him he could barely make it out through the grey mists that whirled around him, but he could feel how fast he was falling, and he knew what was waiting for him down there. The grey mists are a hint that the voice was coming from Bloodraven. Of course that would not become evident until after The Mystery Knight was published. Quote He closed his eyes and began to cry. That won't do any good, the crow said. I told you, the answer is flying, not crying. How hard can it be? I'm doing it. The crow took to the air and flapped around Bran's hand. "You have wings," Bran pointed out. Maybe you do too. Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers. There are different kinds of wings, the crow said. . . . Now, Bran, the crow urged. Choose. Fly or die. Death reached for him, screaming. Bran spread his arms and flew. Wings unseen drank the wind and filled and pulled him upward. Bran is the winged wolf. Quote He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. Winter is coming. Quote He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. We had just learned three chapters earlier that Rodrik decided it was time for Robb to wield live steel. Quote He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken's forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay. Up to this point, all we know about Hodor is that he is a stable boy who smiles a lot and never says anything but "Hodor." So this is a foreshadowing of Hodor's utility to Bran the Broken. Quote At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly. At this point, we can recall how Catelyn felt the Winterfell weirwood was watching her, and that Bran was wary of it, but all we know so far is that the children of the forest had carved the faces in the trees before the coming of the First Men across the Narrow Sea, and that south of the Neck, the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago, except on the Isle of Faces where the green men keep a silent watch. Of course now, we realize that this line is telling us that Bloodraven was plugging Bran into the weirnet. Quote He looked east, and saw a galley racing across the waters of the Bite. He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife on a table in front of her, as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving. A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it. We know that Catelyn is traveling with the Valyrian steel dagger with the dragonbone hilt and Rodrik to Kings Landing by some route faster than the Kingsroad. And we learn in the next chapter that they travel to White Harbor, and by ship from that city to Kings Landing, and that along the way, they pass a violent storm that makes Rodrik sick. The storm is also a metaphor for what awaits House Stark in the War of the Five Kings. Quote He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. In the previous chapter we see the Ned plead with Robert on behalf of Arya and then Lady. We see Sansa become distraught at the royal command to put down Lady, and we know that Arya is furious about her sisters betrayal. Then we read another little trio. . . Quote There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood. The first two shadows are easy. The Hound and Jaime fit the images to a tee. The first is Joffreys sworn sword, and the second is Jaime Lannister, who was the first to commit a belligerent act between Houses Lannister and Stark in what would become the War of the Five Kings, when he pushed Bran from the tower window. Both had just been leading searches for Arya with hostile intent. And both would act violently against The Ned in Kings Landing. The third shadow is a complete mystery at this point. Later, we would see clues that Gregor and Petyr seem to fit this imagery best. Some have even suggested Tyrion and Tywin. My guess is Petyr, but most readers, like you, assumed that the third shadow was Gregor, and his transformation in the Black Cells certainly supported that conclusion. But other readers settled on Petyr after learning about the sigil of House Baelish. Although Petyr was a small man who adopted the mockingbird as his personal sigil, the sigil of his house was the stone head of the Titan of Braavos... Quote The device painted on the shield was one Sansa did not know; a grey stone head with fiery eyes, upon a light green field. “My grandfather’s shield,” Petyr explained when he saw her gazing at it. “His own father was born in Braavos and came to the Vale as a sellsword in the hire of Lord Corbray, so my grandfather took the head of the Titan as his sigil when he was knighted.” Sansa VI, Storm 68 (Like Sheldon, I know you have trouble seeing the art--Notice that this is revealed in the last Sansa chapter before we have the big reveal that Petyr instigated the the game of thrones. The author is building toward a climax at the final chapter of Storm, which ends the first part of his original trilogy.) This interpretation of Petyr as a giant tied in to the presumption that the Ghost of High Heart foresaw Sansa slaying Petyr, the savage giant.Or do you suppose that Sansa is going to slay Gregor? Moreover, Petyr proved to be a much graver threat to Bran’s father and sisters than either Sandor or Jaime, both of whom eventually attempted to aid the Stark girls, and when the Hound and the Kingslayer faced each other during the Hand’s tourney Littlefinger sat above them in the viewing stands wagering on the outcome, or looming over them. Now, getting back to Bran's vision (or is this a dream?)... Quote He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise. Bran's vision here traces Daenerys's arc through Game and the birth of her dragons. The eggs came from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai; that the drags were stirring beneath the sunrise was a hint that they were about to hatch. Quote Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. Interestingly, this is the first time we see Jon associated with blue. We know that Ned associates Lyanna's death with a bed of blood and roses, but we don't know what sort of roses yet. We do know that after Jon asked Benjen to take him to the Wall, he apparently became resentful that he was not welcome in King's Landing and could no longer remain at Winterfell even if he chose. (Of course, later we will see that bastards have been welcome in King's Landing, and that we begin to realize that the Ned didn't want Jon to be around Robert.) Moreover, we read just four chapters earlier, about his disappointment upon learning that the men of the Night's Watch were not as noble as he had imagined. And we would discover two chapters later how miserable Jon was during his initial time at the Wall. Quote And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks. Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live. "Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling. Because winter is coming. Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. This passage recalls what we read about in the prologue. And after the release of the 1993 letter from The George to his publisher, we know that the three main conflicts of A Song of Ice and Fire will culminate in the War for the Dawn. Quote Its beak stabbed at him fiercely, and Bran felt a sudden blinding pain in the middle of his forehead, between his eyes. We will learn later about the significance of the three-eyed crow, that having your third-eye opened allows you to see things not visible to normal men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Do we have any reason to believe Bloodraven can see the future? No we don't. So dreams created by him are not prophetic. I agree with your take on Jaime siding with Aegon. That much is obvious. But it is not something that's written in stone. It is not something Bloodraven knew would happen or his working towards. The dream is the beginning of that because it reopened Jaime's wound about feeling bad for Rhaegar and, especially, Elia and the children. That's the guilt that causes the flame to go out. It is the guilt that gnaws at Jaime's very soul, something he has buried so deep that it only comes back up after the dream. And then it is pretty much all over the place in AFfC. Bloodraven would have no reason to want Jaime to make Aegon king. If he knows about Aegon he also knows that he is, most likely, not Rhaegar's son. But Jaime will never care about Rhaegar's true son, the Stark boy. He cares about the son whose head was dashed against the wall. If Bloodraven wanted Jon to be king he should influence other people, not Jaime Lannister. But the point of the dream is not some fancy decision-making process for Jaime further down the road - the crucial piece in turning Jaime against Cersei is not Brienne or the dream, it is Tyrion and the line about Cersei's affairs. That is the one gnawing at him, poisoning the relationship to his sister. If he hadn't that well-placed dagger in his heart Jaime and Cersei would be happily fuck each other right now, producing more golden-haired children. The point of the dream was to save Brienne. She is the one with the burning sword. The real Brienne is never going to help Jaime to deal with his demons and his guilt. That was just the trick in the dream theater. Jaime is supposed to believe she is important for him. But Bloodraven thinks she has a role to play in his game. Not Jaime. Jaime is just the pawn he used to save her because he was stupid enough to sleep on the weirwood stump. If it had been Steelshanks Walton Bloodraven would have used him to accomplish this goal. Jaime himself realizes that this isn't a dream at all. It is something else. He doesn't have both his hands. In his real dreams he always has both his hands. But this one is different. It is an illusion. A trick to mess with his mind. The real Lannisters - Tywin, Cersei - would never treat Jaime in this manner, nor would Casterly Rock ever feel so strange and threatening to him. Estranging him from his family is also part of the program but I daresay it is just the means Bloodraven uses to make him do what he wants. Cersei/Tywin are unpleasant in the dream, Brienne is friendly and unquestioningly an ally. And that's what triggers his desire to save her. In a sense, it works like a TV commercial. Associate good feelings with the brand you want the customer to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Lord Varys said: But my point is that no proper prophecy, vision, or dream of the future ever focused on the hidden schemers. That is a clear pattern. There are no prophetic dreams or visions about Varys/Illyrio, Littlefinger, Doran Martell, Roose Bolton, Walder Frey, and Tywin Lannister planning the Red Wedding. No dreams about Olenna Redwyne deciding to poison Joffrey. Instead we have the poison in Sansa's hair. Those visions and dreams are usually very superficial and tend to reduce or depict complex events as strange symbols. That's why we can't really make sense of the stone beast, after all. Or of the corpse in the prow of that ship. I'll give you that one! All we can do is try to puzzle it out, but too many pieces remain missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Lord Varys said: The idea of Jojen paste is a joke. Rather than derail this thread further... http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137406-jojen-paste/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Ygrain said: Yeah, this was noted in the old Apple Martini thread, as well:-) I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon_Tor Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 1 minute ago, Lord Varys said: Do we have any reason to believe Bloodraven can see the future? No we don't. So dreams created by him are not prophetic. We have to be careful about mistaking far-seeing from future seeing. Qaithe, for example, warns Daenerys about a number of people who are, at the time she warns her, on their way to her. The problem is, many of those people don't make it to her, and she ship she (seems to) name is destroyed, and will never dock in her harbor. That leads me to Question a number of things which would otherwise appear to be precognition; could those predictions instead be explained by far-seeing? Or mind-reading? Or being able to plant ideas in people's heads to make them perform the behaviors "predicted"? If I bet you $100 that you are going to dance tonight, then I pull out a gun and start shooting at your feet, did I predict the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Do we have any reason to believe Bloodraven can see the future? No we don't. So dreams created by him are not prophetic. I agree with your take on Jaime siding with Aegon. That much is obvious. But it is not something that's written in stone. It is not something Bloodraven knew would happen or his working towards. The dream is the beginning of that because it reopened Jaime's wound about feeling bad for Rhaegar and, especially, Elia and the children. That's the guilt that causes the flame to go out. It is the guilt that gnaws at Jaime's very soul, something he has buried so deep that it only comes back up after the dream. And then it is pretty much all over the place in AFfC. Bloodraven would have no reason to want Jaime to make Aegon king. If he knows about Aegon he also knows that he is, most likely, not Rhaegar's son. But Jaime will never care about Rhaegar's true son, the Stark boy. He cares about the son whose head was dashed against the wall. If Bloodraven wanted Jon to be king he should influence other people, not Jaime Lannister. But the point of the dream is not some fancy decision-making process for Jaime further down the road - the crucial piece in turning Jaime against Cersei is not Brienne or the dream, it is Tyrion and the line about Cersei's affairs. That is the one gnawing at him, poisoning the relationship to his sister. If he hadn't that well-placed dagger in his heart Jaime and Cersei would be happily fuck each other right now, producing more golden-haired children. The point of the dream was to save Brienne. She is the one with the burning sword. The real Brienne is never going to help Jaime to deal with his demons and his guilt. That was just the trick in the dream theater. Jaime is supposed to believe she is important for him. But Bloodraven thinks she has a role to play in his game. Not Jaime. Jaime is just the pawn he used to save her because he was stupid enough to sleep on the weirwood stump. If it had been Steelshanks Walton Bloodraven would have used him to accomplish this goal. Jaime himself realizes that this isn't a dream at all. It is something else. He doesn't have both his hands. In his real dreams he always has both his hands. But this one is different. It is an illusion. A trick to mess with his mind. The real Lannisters - Tywin, Cersei - would never treat Jaime in this manner, nor would Casterly Rock ever feel so strange and threatening to him. Estranging him from his family is also part of the program but I daresay it is just the means Bloodraven uses to make him do what he wants. Cersei/Tywin are unpleasant in the dream, Brienne is friendly and unquestioningly an ally. And that's what triggers his desire to save her. In a sense, it works like a TV commercial. Associate good feelings with the brand you want the customer to buy. You're missing the art, dude. The George lays out his plot lines in several of these visions and dreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 26 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Well, you must be right. Or not. The grey mists are a hint that the voice was coming from Bloodraven. Of course that would not become evident until after The Mystery Knight was published. Bran is the winged wolf. Winter is coming. Well, you give nothing there what points to the future. 26 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: We had just learned three chapters earlier that Rodrik decided it was time for Robb to wield live steel. Present/past. 26 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Up to this point, all we know about Hodor is that he is a stable boy who smiles a lot and never says anything but "Hodor." So this is a foreshadowing of Hodor's utility to Bran the Broken. Present. 26 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: We know that Catelyn is traveling with the Valyrian steel dagger with the dragonbone hilt and Rodrik to Kings Landing by some route faster than the Kingsroad. And we learn in the next chapter that they travel to White Harbor, and by ship from that city to Kings Landing, and that along the way, they pass a violent storm that makes Rodrik sick. The storm is also a metaphor for what awaits House Stark in the War of the Five Kings. Present. You can also see allusions to the future in the symbolism but the point remains that Bran doesn't see the future unfolding here. 26 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: In the previous chapter we see the Ned plead with Robert on behalf of Arya and then Lady. We see Sansa become distraught at the royal command to put down Lady, and we know that Arya is furious about her sisters betrayal. Then we read another little trio. . . Present. 26 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: The first two shadows are easy. The Hound and Jaime fit the images to a tee. The first is Joffreys sworn sword, and the second is Jaime Lannister, who was the first to commit a belligerent act between Houses Lannister and Stark in what would become the War of the Five Kings, when he pushed Bran from the tower window. Both had just been leading searches for Arya with hostile intent. And both would act violently against The Ned in Kings Landing. The third shadow is a complete mystery at this point. Later, we would see clues that Gregor and Petyr seem to fit this imagery best. Some have even suggested Tyrion and Tywin. My guess is Petyr, but most readers, like you, assumed that the third shadow was Gregor, and his transformation in the Black Cells certainly supported that conclusion. Jaime and Sandor are threats in the present. There is no reason to believe the third dude is anything else but a present threat. And the one guy that shows up around that time in the royal camp is ... Ilyn Payne, the guy who is going to kill Eddard Stark. He is the one who frightens Sansa for no reason, too. George is less subtle with his symbolism at this early point in the story. Gregor Clegane isn't really a problem for the Starks. But more importantly - neither he nor Petyr are literally at the place where Bran sees the other shadows. Ilyn Payne, Sandor, and Jaime are there. And that's why they are meant. The Titan of Braavos is just a big guy. He has no resemblance with the stone giant. He wears a half-helm. There is no visor in a half-helm, is there? I'm denying that there are allusions there. And if you want to see the parallels they are certainly there. But the point of the whole thing there is that this is not sold as some correct glimpse of the future. Because Bran sees the present/past, not the future. 26 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: But other readers settled on Petyr after learning about the sigil of House Baelish. Although Petyr was a small man who adopted the mockingbird as his personal sigil, the sigil of his house was the stone head of the Titan of Braavos... Sansa VI, Storm 68 (Like Sheldon, I know you have trouble seeing the art--Notice that this is revealed in the last Sansa chapter before we have the big reveal that Petyr instigated the the game of thrones. The author is building toward a climax at the final chapter of Storm, which ends the first part of his original trilogy.) This interpretation of Petyr as a giant tied in to the presumption that the Ghost of High Heart foresaw Sansa slaying Petyr, the savage giant.Or do you suppose that Sansa is going to slay Gregor? No, I think Sansa is going to slay the real giant - Lord Robert Arryn. He was the giant in the castle and she is already poisoning him, is she not? 26 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Moreover, Petyr proved to be a much graver threat to Bran’s father and sisters than either Sandor or Jaime, both of whom eventually attempted to aid the Stark girls, and when the Hound and the Kingslayer faced each other during the Hand’s tourney Littlefinger sat above them in the viewing stands wagering on the outcome, or looming over them. But Littlefinger never does anything directly to his father. Payne does. He kills him. 26 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Now, getting back to Bran's vision (or is this a dream?)... Bran's vision here traces Daenerys's arc through Game and the birth of her dragons. The eggs came from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai; that the drags were stirring beneath the sunrise was a hint that they were about to hatch. Or those are simply dragons that live in Asshai at this point. Bran sees Asshai. Not some symbols representing Dany's dragons. When he sees his mother and sisters he sees them as they are now, not in some future setting. Why should it be different with those dragons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 14 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said: We have to be careful about mistaking far-seeing from future seeing. Qaithe, for example, warns Daenerys about a number of people who are, at the time she warns her, on their way to her. The problem is, many of those people don't make it to her, and she ship she (seems to) name is destroyed, and will never dock in her harbor. That leads me to Question a number of things which would otherwise appear to be precognition; could those predictions instead be explained by far-seeing? Or mind-reading? Or being able to plant ideas in people's heads to make them perform the behaviors "predicted"? If I bet you $100 that you are going to dance tonight, then I pull out a gun and start shooting at your feet, did I predict the future? Quaithe seems to have seen the guys intending to go to Daenerys with her glass candle. She doesn't see the future, she just informs her that a bunch of people are traveling in her direction. The Pale Mare may be a genuine prophecy, though. But it might be that you can get glimpses of the future via those glass candles. We don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said: The grey mists are a hint that the voice was coming from Bloodraven. Of course that would not become evident until after The Mystery Knight was published. Wait what? Grey mists might indicate a glamor, or a disguise... but why do you think it indicates Bloodraven? Mel's glamor of Mance is "grey mist", Ned's allies in the ToJ dream are made of grey mist, Braavos is veiled in grey mist... and that is just off the top of my head. I'm curious, dubious, but curious... Of course I don't think Bloodraven was the Three Eyed Crow, and I'm not convinced Bloodraven can speak through the Weirwoods, since he explicitly says he can't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HallowedMarcus Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 21 hours ago, Lord Varys said: What? You think the promised prince isn't Aerys II's great-great-great-great-great-granddaughter? I don't know what to say... ;-). First I believe you meant Aegon I's g-g-g-g-g-g granddaughter, right. Because Daenerys Targaryen is Aerys II's daughter! Second and you? You think the promised prince isn't Aegon II's great-great-great-great-great grandson Aegon Targaryen (a.k.a. Jon Snow). I don't know what to say. Sincerely. I know that Daenerys will sit on the Iron Throne at the end of the Books and rule Westeros. I believe that after the Winter she will return to Essos to make sure the former slaves continue free and so on. I, however, believe Jon Snow is the promised prince, son of Ice and Fire and that he will sacrifice himself to save Westeros from the Others. I do hope that both he and she would marry and rule but knowing how GRRM is and also he himself saying that the end will be bittersweet, it is, unfortunately, unlikely to happen. At least I hope she gets pregnant of him before he dies and so we know their son will rule eventually... Finally about the vision where Daenerys sees Rhaegar speaking about three. Three Heads, three dragons and so on. I believe this is literally about the three Targaryens. The "son" Jon Connington, the Daughter of Aerys II and the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. That means that all 3 are real Targaryens. Obviously, that being true means that John will die get her pregnant and Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Elia will rule Westeros. Or maybe two of them will die off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 14 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Wait what? Grey mists might indicate a glamor, or a disguise... but why do you think it indicates Bloodraven? Mel's glamor of Mance is "grey mist", Ned's allies in the ToJ dream are made of grey mist, Braavos is veiled in grey mist... and that is just off the top of my head. I'm curious, dubious, but curious... Of course I don't think Bloodraven was the Three Eyed Crow, and I'm not convinced Bloodraven can speak through the Weirwoods, since he explicitly says he can't... Bloodraven is the three-eyed crow. He's a one-eyed albino with the same birthmark, and the thousand and one eyes reference. Quote How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere. The Mystery Knight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 41 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Bloodraven is the three-eyed crow. He's a one-eyed albino with the same birthmark, and the thousand and one eyes reference. The Mystery Knight A raven is not a crow... "Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck. Bloodraven doesn't even understand the question, and answers remarkably similarly to Sam. Are all dogs a reference to him too since he supposedly turned into a one eyed dog? AND NOTICE HOW THE DOG HAS ONE EYE? "He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that Iloved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon_Tor Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 1 minute ago, Lord Varys said: Or those are simply dragons that live in Asshai at this point. I think it's very relevant that magic, and dragons, are still viable in Asshai (and East of it?). It's what leads me to believe that the extinction of magic in Westeros was a local event with, it follows, a local cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 10 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said: I think it's very relevant that magic, and dragons, are still viable in Asshai (and East of it?). It's what leads me to believe that the extinction of magic in Westeros was a local event with, it follows, a local cause. Could be. Or Bran is just mistaking wyverns for dragons. It is not that he is an expert in that field, right? Or that he could mark out the differences between dragons and wyverns over that distance. He is not exactly in the sky above Asshai when he looks east... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordImp Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Damon_Tor said: I'm pretty sure this is the metaphor GRRM is setting us up for. I'm not with you here. Are you trying to say that the Others are goods guy and that they should be welcomed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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