King Louis II (KLII) Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Mikkel said: What else do you call killing hundreds / thousands of men needed in the fight against the Others and destroying tonnes of food in a continent about to go through winter? Admittedly there was little chance of getting those men to fight the good fight, but now there's none at all. Of course Dany herself is also refusing to fight the good fight. Also "isn't survival more important than your pride?" woah.. hypocritical much?! What else do you call killing hundreds / thousands of men: A General... Danny doesn't believe yet in AoD she did what any military leader would have done: What else do you call destroying tonnes of food in a continent about to go through winter? : You can call stupid, misinformed or naive (she may not know that they were carry not only their provisions but provisions for KL). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic. Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 I think this was more her compromise decision. "Ok fine, i won't burn the citizens, but i'll burn all the soldiers on the field and show that i'm still in control" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Okay, my two cents on this. The situation is complex. When you are a ruler (not that I have ever been one lol) there can be a fine line between being a pussover and an almost a psychopathic tyrant. Finding a balance, I can only imagine is extremely hard, on occasion impossible. Tyrion, and I admit he is my favourite character, set fire to the Blackwater in a place with children and old folk who could be affected not just the enemy army. Still, he had little choice. If Cersei and Joffrey had been in charge the devastation would have been much larger because they would have thrown all caution to the wind. I don't think he really enjoyed doing it but it was "either I do it my way, or my sister will do it her way." TBH, of all the things he has done this was the one that shocked me the most. To me it was just like unleashing nuclear power (in our times). Dany had been loosing every battle or advantage so far. Not sure whom to blame for Euron's attack on her (Greyjoy) fleet but probably all of them for being overconfident. The attack on Casterly Rock was short-sighted (slightly blame Tyrion for it, although he did provide them with inside knowledge) and the battle is not lost yet, they are still under siege... Now, not sure how easy it would have been to foresee that they carried the gold from Highgarden, but I would have expected Tyrion to have thought of that. If that is so, I would certainly have tried to obtain it for myself (Dany) or to let it burn so that it could not be used against me...Even Davos and Jon, aside Tyrion and Varys could have known Cersei is badly in debt and Highgarden is rich... Now, what was needed, I think was stealth, like Euron used...get or destroy the gold! If some casualties were needed no much one could do about it but not a full display of fury. Once the Iron Bank abandons Cersei her cause is lost since she is very far from being loved by anyone in Westeros. This to me would have been Tyrion and Varys at their best, still... didn't happened... I am still hoping the gold is lost to Cersei lol. At this moment in time it looks as if she has it but unclear though. As for both Jon and Tyrion I think their counsel was sound in that they think longer term. It is all very well to win an epic battle but it doesn't mean much for the reconstruction period if you are feared but despised. I think Tyrion could draw from what that approach did to his father in the end lol (not talking about the privy bit but about how he managed to rule and why the Starks for instance were so keen to believe LF's lies against the Lannisters). Personally, when Olenna was advising Dany to go take KL I cringed, she was trying to appeal to the "gal power" in her or her "Targaryan monarch self entitlement". Yet, in my view, Olenna was out for herself there; she has no more to lose, her family is gone, her life at an end (even if nobody had killed her), to me (understandably, she wanted to see revenge take place within her lifetime and this was running short). Yara is warrior through and her advice was to be expected. People like Tyrion sounded like the voice of reason but the results for Dany were catastrophic. Now, when I speak of Olenna's ulterior or inner motives, I cannot leave out Tyrion. Episode 4 showed (and I am glad it did) how much he was rooting for Jaime's survival. She was a little wrong, I think, in almost saying he had been a traitor to her from the start (okay she didn't spell it out but that was the meaning I got, although partly fueled by frustration on Dany's part). I don't think she was totally wrong though. I think Tyrion found it hard to go against Jaime, even if he personally didn't fight. To be expected too and Dany realised that but she went a bit harsh on him for it is obvious he would like to see Cersei destroyed (but not Jaime or probably even some of his bannermen...). It is only to be expected that he would have conflicted loyalties... Now, Jon, Jon has a very one plot agenda and who can blame him also! All Jon wants to do is fight WWs, for he knows the real threat but to him everything in between is a stupid skirmish that is delaying them all. What he said though, made sense, and to me it was okay do not do cities or close quarters with dragons (pretty much our own code of conduct in modern warfare). In short, despite all that advice for and against, she was between a rock and a hard place. She started with a huge advantage and what is the point of having dragons if no one fears them! lol Very quickly, even with her advisors (who I believe are much superior to what Cersei has) lost two battles or tantamount to two. This is terribly demoralising. She thought: fuck it! Jon and Tyrion were right and that people will now fear me more than follow me and this is very damaging to my image but I guess the alternative is to lose yet again... Not to mention that say the Dothraki follow strength alone. They were very impressed with the Khal BBQ but after yet another batlle loss... would they still be loyal to her??? They follow Drogo without question whilst he was "on top" once he fell off the horse everything changed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Lovejoy Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 @Mikkel @Pandean @Gala I enjoyed reading your posts especially yours Gala - your fiancé's point about Dany being motivated to free slaves purely out of revenge fantasy and need to be admired / followed (and showing off cunning and intellect to find the quickest path to being hailed as a virtuous queen) is incredibly poignant. I watched the show first and thought Dany was the choice for the human bag guy villain until the Benioff and Weiss S6 promo interviews came out when they were jerking themselves off for how feminist the show was because it had so many "bad ass" murderous females (which doesn't mean this is a "feminist" show, it means that it subverts typical gender tropes a lot but not necessarily feminist). Then I realized for sure she is their preferred protagonist no matter what GRRM intended. I read the books in between S6 and S7, however... Spoiler and it seems apparent right away Dany is the bad guy - from the mad king parallel to the sense of entitlement to the fact that we have no POVs around her except for her own POV so we get absolutely no outside perspective on her actions. Why would GRRM the hero a sweet beautiful child wlth 3 dragons (making her unstoppable win war when they are grown - everyone prefers an underdog) if he is set on doing the unexpected in fantasy genres? I do think GRRM got bored of the story he had been writing for 15 years and that is why Aegon came into play in ADWD and Dany has scenes like the one in Meereen where she decides to stay, or when she is actively caring for the sick. He changed his mind to make her a protagonist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabetta Duò Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 5 hours ago, Illiterati said: She made an enormous mistake by burning the food supply, agreed. She should have given part of the food supply to the common folk to win their sympathy and use the rest for her own army / followers. Plus, personally I don't think Jon was making a list of things you can or you can't burn (like: it's ok to roast as you like, as long as you spare castles and cities); to me he meant to say that you can't roast and threaten and then ask for loyalty or aim to be a sovereign loved by his subjects, able to inspire that loyalty and make them belive in you and believe that things will change. Certainly civilians have to be spared when possible, but I don't think he meant it like "go and roast the armies, just spare the civilians". In fact, "castles" are where the high lords live and the high lords are the ones to whom those armies belong and the armies are made by common folk who have families who won't forget who roasted their relatives: people won't perceive roasting as one of the casualties you can expect from war... being killed by a human is something you can 'accept', like "it's war", being roasted by a monster supposedly extincted centuries ago, against which you stand no chance, definitely is not. Plus, if you roast lords, why do you assume common folk won't perceive you as a danger, because she tells them so?. I think Jon meant that she should take advantage of her dragons showing them off as a way to inspire awe and loyalty, to make people believe in her for she made the impossible possible, instead of using them as a mass distruction weapon. She didn't get either Tyrion's or Jon's advices, in fact in 7x05 preview we see her say "I am not here to murder, join me... [and you're like : yes, right, she got it] join me or die [and you're like: I'm taking that back, she didn't get anything]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 7 hours ago, The Bastard of Summer said: Dany was playing at war and killed soilders not CIVILIANS. Burning and sacking Kings Landing would have resulted in such casualties. But you attack an army in open field void of civilan life you avoid killing "innocents". Granted the Lannister army was marching back "minding their business" but they had just killed Danys allies. They took their gold and food too. Soilders marching or not die in wars. Do you think all these men are soldiers voluntarily? The Lannister army is only called the lanniser army since it is led by House Lannister. Inside the army are many nobles who are vassals of House lannister aswell as proffesional soldiers like knights and garrisons. THe Lannister Soldiers that Arya met seemed to mostly lowborn who join for adventure and payment. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-army-idUSKCN1001PY These men in the real world dont want to fight and are persecuted for it. Maybe you should be given a flag on your jacket? https://www.warhistoryonline.com/medieval/led-knights-military-leadership-hundred-years-war.html 3 hours ago, Pandean said: TBH, I think a Jon/Dany combo would be disastrous as rulers. I'm not sure what combo would be good though. I almost hesitate to say Sansa with Jon or something because they make up for what each other lacks but I doubt that would happen. I dont think Jon but especially Daenerys will respect social norms and provoke conflicts that will lead to bloodshed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 2 hours ago, King Louis II (KLII) said: What else do you call killing hundreds / thousands of men: A General... Danny doesn't believe yet in AoD she did what any military leader would have done: What else do you call destroying tonnes of food in a continent about to go through winter? : You can call stupid, misinformed or naive (she may not know that they were carry not only their provisions but provisions for KL). Daenerys is not gonna starve as she can just fly with her dragon or order her dothraki and pillage the westerosi. She wishes to be the queen of the seven kingdoms which means she want the people of the seven kingdoms to be her serfs her property. Maybe she can accept some damage to her property? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerJeremiahLouistark Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 I don't see how torching the Red Keep would be such a bad thing. Dany is starting to lose me with the whole Appolo Creed introduction anyway. She needs to step it up. Burning the army was a good step forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard of Summer Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 49 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said: Do you think all these men are soldiers voluntarily? The Lannister army is only called the lanniser army since it is led by House Lannister. Inside the army are many nobles who are vassals of House lannister aswell as proffesional soldiers like knights and garrisons. THe Lannister Soldiers that Arya met seemed to mostly lowborn who join for adventure and payment. I'm aware of this. I didn't say that all those men were guilty of something and desreved to die they way they did. They were guilty by association in Danys pov. I'm sure most of those men were little folk who didn't ask or want to take part in the Lords wars over a metal chair.....Dany killed who she thought responsible. I never said it was right any where in that statement. Dany does not make the distinction between conscripted soilder and volunteering soilder. I was just explaing why Dany though she was doing the right thing. She saw Lannister banners and armour. It didn't matter the willingness of the wearer to her and her army. It was said by Varys when the Lords play their game of thrones the small folk get hurt the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerJeremiahLouistark Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, The Bastard of Summer said: I'm aware of this. I didn't say that all those men were guilty of something and desreved to die they way they did. They were guilty by association in Danys pov. I'm sure most of those men were little folk who didn't ask or want to take part in the Lords wars over a metal chair.....Dany killed who she thought responsible. I never said it was right any where in that statement. Not to mention they just killed a bunch of Highgarden and Tyrell men. And their leader and Euron killed their allies from Dorne and Pyke. Is she not supposed to respond? Just keep taking blow after blow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard of Summer Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 6 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said: Not to mention they just killed a bunch of Highgarden and Tyrell men. And their leader and Euron killed their allies from Dorne and Pyke. Is she not supposed to respond? Just keep taking blow after blow? she's playing this game of thrones and it's war. In war people die. Matters not that they didn't choose to fight for their Lord. They put on the uniform and thus they became the enemy. Those "lucky" enough not to be chosen will still suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starklover Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 5 hours ago, Pandean said: TBH, I think Dany being so hung up on being Queen and the Iron Throne may lead to her downfall. She's become very narrow minded. all she cares about is the throne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said: Do you think all these men are soldiers voluntarily? The Lannister army is only called the lanniser army since it is led by House Lannister. Inside the army are many nobles who are vassals of House lannister aswell as proffesional soldiers like knights and garrisons. THe Lannister Soldiers that Arya met seemed to mostly lowborn who join for adventure and payment. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-army-idUSKCN1001PY These men in the real world dont want to fight and are persecuted for it. Maybe you should be given a flag on your jacket? https://www.warhistoryonline.com/medieval/led-knights-military-leadership-hundred-years-war.html I dont think Jon but especially Daenerys will respect social norms and provoke conflicts that will lead to bloodshed. You can say the same thing about any soldier that has been killed in this story from Robb Stark killing Lannister soldiers, to Jon Snow killiing Bolton soldiers, to Jamie Lannister killing Tyrell soldiers, etc, etc. Not sure why it is different for Dany. She just has better weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 She attacked the lannister army not a city. Think of it like this D-day which was an army attacking another army against nagasaki being bombed. They are not seen in the same light. Basically one is war the other is a massacre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 4 hours ago, King Louis II (KLII) said: What else do you call killing hundreds / thousands of men: A General... Danny doesn't believe yet in AoD she did what any military leader would have done: What else do you call destroying tonnes of food in a continent about to go through winter? : You can call stupid, misinformed or naive (she may not know that they were carry not only their provisions but provisions for KL). exactly. If she is fighting a war she has to fight not sit back and take hits. Atttacking casterly rock when it was full of lannister soldiers (like they expected) would have resulted in thousands and thousands of people dying and then more when kingslanding was attacked. Did you think she would take the throne some other way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 6 hours ago, Mikkel said: What else do you call killing hundreds / thousands of men needed in the fight against the Others and destroying tonnes of food in a continent about to go through winter? Admittedly there was little chance of getting those men to fight the good fight, but now there's none at all. Of course Dany herself is also refusing to fight the good fight. Also "isn't survival more important than your pride?" woah.. hypocritical much?! Cercei doesn't give a single fuck about the Others. And those soldiers fought for Cercei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 4 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said: Cercei doesn't give a single fuck about the Others. And those soldiers fought for Cercei. I know she doesn't. But Cersei is a force for evil, and Dany is doing what Cersei would do (if she had dragons) so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted August 9, 2017 Author Share Posted August 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, Mikkel said: I know she doesn't. But Cersei is a force for evil, and Dany is doing what Cersei would do (if she had dragons) so... Cersei with dragons would be horrible As an aside your profile picture freaked me out because I saw it moved lol Also your signature thing is great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 10 minutes ago, Mikkel said: I know she doesn't. But Cersei is a force for evil, and Dany is doing what Cersei would do (if she had dragons) so... Oh please any commander who had access to dragons would use them in battle against in an army the same way as Dany did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb1180 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 You aren't missing anything. It was a very typical Dany kind of move, taking a middle ground position that could be open to interpretation. Myself, I think it violated the spirit of the advice Jon and Tyrion gave her. In fact, I think the key to interpreting the scene can be found in Tyrion's discomfort at witnessing the battle. To that end, I think the dragons are meant to represent the horrors of disproportionate use of force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.