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Jcat

Who suggested Daenerys attack the Lannister army? Tyrion? Varys? Jon?

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18 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

How could the Mereen spoil anything in show world, unless Dany goes back to Mereen for some strange reason?

 

PS I always thought Tyrion would be the third dragonrider, but we see that he doesn't have the stomach for the carnage.  Bran warging is still a possibility.

As you might noticed I try to convince him to get over his "fears" and read the books.. That's the reason for the spoiler..

Tyrion was one of my thoughts too.. But can he?

The three eyed Raven (before the recast) promised Bran that he will fly.. Maybe he will warg to  the dragon. He is also called the Winged Wolf in the books..

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Styl7 -Thanks for clearifying the bit about prerequisites for employment as a dragonrider.  I guess that just leaves Jon, and maybe the other bastard Targaryen who heads the Golden Company.  If the only dragonrider remains Daenerys, she is putting her whole enterprise at extreme risk.  It would be a little like Winston Churchill and some of his close relatives were the only ones able to fly Spitfires in the summer of 1940.  Ok thats a bad analogy, but you get the basic premise.  And in order for a three dragon formation to work doesn't it require at least one dragonrider/dragon combination to direct the other two dragons?  Like at Meeren?

Honestly, I wish I had encountered these books years ago when I had the time to really get into the series.  Now after everything I have to read for work all day, about all I can do is plop down in front of a screen in the evening.  I guess there is always Audible.

Illiterati -Yeah I really thought Tyrion would be a dragonrider, especially after his encounter with two of them in the Meeren dungeon in season 6.  I also thought somehow Arya would end-up riding one.  But Styl7 said only those of Targaryen blood are qualified, so unless there is more to Tyrion's or Arya's ancestry than is currently known they are both out.  Funny thing is I don't really see Jon as a dragonrider for some reason?

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4 minutes ago, Jcat said:

Styl7 -Thanks for clearifying the bit about prerequisites for employment as a dragonrider.  I guess that just leaves Jon, and maybe the other bastard Targaryen who heads the Golden Company.  If the only dragonrider remains Daenerys, she is putting her whole enterprise at extreme risk.  It would be a little like Winston Churchill and some of his close relatives were the only ones able to fly Spitfires in the summer of 1940.  Ok thats a bad analogy, but you get the basic premise.  And in order for a three dragon formation to work doesn't it require at least one dragonrider/dragon combination to direct the other two dragons?  Like at Meeren?

Honestly, I wish I had encountered these books years ago when I had the time to really get into the series.  Now after everything I have to read for work all day, about all I can do is plop down in front of a screen in the evening.  I guess there is always Audible.

Illiterati -Yeah I really thought Tyrion would be a dragonrider, especially after his encounter with two of them in the Meeren dungeon in season 6.  I also thought somehow Arya would end-up riding one.  But Styl7 said only those of Targaryen blood are qualified, so unless there is more to Tyrion's or Arya's ancestry than is currently known they are both out.  Funny thing is I don't really see Jon as a dragonrider for some reason?

If you find some time, read them.. I am only 17 (started reading them about 1-1,5years before, after I watched the show) and they are so good...

Another man just came into my mind with some Targaryen blood.. Gendry, Robert's bastard..

For some reason i find it so difficult to imagine someone other than Daenerys riding a dragon.. Even Jon.. But cmon even though I hate Jon's fans(:D) I want him to ride a dragon

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I am sure the books are great.  I read Lord of the Rings when I was in high school, and absolutely loved it.  And that was a long time before the Peter Jackson movies.

To read the books now after only knowing the TV series I think would be confusing and perhaps disillusioning.  Everyone I have ever talked to said the books are so much better than the show.  And so trying to realign the book with the show could be problematic.  But maybe after the show ends would be an opportune time.

And Gendry may have some dragon blood?  Do tell.

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4 minutes ago, Jcat said:

I am sure the books are great.  I read Lord of the Rings when I was in high school, and absolutely loved it.  And that was a long time before the Peter Jackson movies.

To read the books now after only knowing the TV series I think would be confusing and perhaps disillusioning.  Everyone I have ever talked to said the books are so much better than the show.  And so trying to realign the book with the show could be problematic.  But maybe after the show ends would be an opportune time.

And Gendry may have some dragon blood?  Do tell.

Gendry is the son of Robert.

Robert grandfather Ormund Baratheon was married with Rhaelle Targaryen..  Rhaelle is the daughter of King Aegon V, younger brother of Maester Aemon. When Aemon died he was talking to Egg. Aegon is Egg.

When Stannis went on the Wall and said that Stannis is the prince that was promised, he thought that she misunderstood the signs.. Stannis had some Targaryen blood but it wasn't him..

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She did ask if perhaps it was Dany herself.  Why can't you play nicely with others? 

And it is not perfectly clear whose decision it was.  We have no idea at this point what happened off screen, O Great and Powerful OZ.

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Styl7 -good information.  And based on that fact, if the Targaryen's are like most imperial families there should be a whole bunch of descendents of the blood of the dragon.  I wonder what proportion of Targaryen blood is needed to become a dragonrider?

SansaJonRule -everyone has been pretty cool on this thread, after a little nastiness early on.

-In episode 5, if Daenerys does not thank any of her advisors in regard to the attack, I think that is confirmation that it was Daenerys' own idea.

                       

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On 8/8/2017 at 1:53 PM, LucyMormont said:

I found your question pertinent, I was wondering the same. All this season, we had to assume a lot of things to happen off-screen, for the things that happen on screen to make some sense, and this was not different.

I don't think it was Tyrion. First of all, he didn't want her to use the dragons at all, or at least, not to ride them herself. Tyrion's  position was that doing that  would be dangerous for her, and that they coudn't afford to lose their Queen. Second, we can clearly see in Tyrion's face that he is not pleased at all seeing all Lannister's soldiers being burnt. Perhaps, as Danaerys said, he didn't want her family smashed after all. Or Tyrion's face was meant to make a point about the great difference between making plans on a map and actually seeing the horrors of war. 

On a side note, Tyrion's reaction was kind of strange. What did he think it was going to happen? That the Iron Throne would be given to  Dani at her arrival  as a gift? And anyway, he had no problems in burning thousands of men himself with wildfire, why would this be different?

I don't think it was Varys. Varys is not a military strategist. Recently is not even a competent spy, but even if he was, he doesn't know what the best military target in a given situation is. The same can be said about Missandei.

The only one there with the knowledge to give such advise is Jon, or maybe Davos. Kind of "you need to break their supply lines if you're going to siege King's Landing". But Davos wouldn't do it without Jon's permission. And  we saw both of them  reluctant, Jon does not want to get caught in Dani's conquer war.

As for Dani alone, Dani has not proven to be a military strategist either, she had Jorah, Barristan, Daario, to make the plans and discuss the possibilities of each one. Then she used to take the final decision, but she didn't make the plans herself.

So I don't really know what happened off-screen. 

Tyrion was horrified by what happened at blackwater. when he saw it and heard the screams he had a look of horror on him and looked at joffrey with disgust for his smile.  I don't think anyone would be pleased seeing people burnt alive and I think he had been trying to avoid so much bloodshed and that was what got him. That and he does love his brother.  Also a good commander will take ideas from her advisors so she can make an informed decision. Personally I think dany should have said screw it and gone after the greyjoy fleet on her dragon thus eliminating them as a threat. She has dragons and tyrion doesn't want her to use them.

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23 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

Tyrion was horrified by what happened at blackwater. when he saw it and heard the screams he had a look of horror on him and looked at joffrey with disgust for his smile.  I don't think anyone would be pleased seeing people burnt alive and I think he had been trying to avoid so much bloodshed and that was what got him. That and he does love his brother.  Also a good commander will take ideas from her advisors so she can make an informed decision. Personally I think dany should have said screw it and gone after the greyjoy fleet on her dragon thus eliminating them as a threat. She has dragons and tyrion doesn't want her to use them.

But dragons can be used for much more than burning enemies armies. Just to have aerial view in scouting is an advantage no one else has. Not to mention that just to show them, could be considered an effective war tactic as to infuse fear into  the enemies' soldiers. 

Just before this episode aired, I made a comment in the sense that the Dragonstone plot had no sense at all; why on earth would Dani bring 3 dragons to Westeros, to have them taking sun baths and fishing in a rock island where no one could see them?

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32 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

Tyrion was horrified by what happened at blackwater. when he saw it and heard the screams he had a look of horror on him and looked at joffrey with disgust for his smile.  I don't think anyone would be pleased seeing people burnt alive and I think he had been trying to avoid so much bloodshed and that was what got him. That and he does love his brother.  Also a good commander will take ideas from her advisors so she can make an informed decision. Personally I think dany should have said screw it and gone after the greyjoy fleet on her dragon thus eliminating them as a threat. She has dragons and tyrion doesn't want her to use them.

Show Tyrion appears to have gotten softer as time advances.  This does not preclude his involvement in shaping Daenerys's decision to attack with Drogon and the Dothraki.  Because Daenerys has not only started to question Tyrion's grand strategy, but where his loyalty actually lies.  He needs a win as badly as Daenerys does.

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In the end of the episode 3 Grey Mask questions the dying soldier to find out where the rest of the Lannisters are.

In the beginning of episode 4 Jaime's army is marching away from Highgarden with the gold. The Tarlys come to report that they emptied the granaries and loaded them into wagons. They further report that they have teams of men collecting the current harvest from the farms. Ser Bronn is sent to persuade the farmers.

When Dany and the others walk on the beach Tyrion and Varys come with bad news from Casterly Rock. We don't see the discussions but it's clear that when the word of defeat reaches Dany, she knows that Lannisters have also taken the food. She tells Tyrion she can't feed her armies because "Cersei has taken all the food from the Reach".

Dany must know approximately where the Lannister army is and decides to hit them with her dragons after listening to Jon, who makes her realize that she's no different than other leaders, if she uses her dragons to burn cities and melt castles.

It's been made very clear that transportation of the gold is what matters so that Lannisters can pay their debt to Iron Bank. 

It doesn't make sense that Dany would burn the food wagons, because she needs them as well. Just before the attack The Tarlys report to Jaime that "all the gold's safely through the gates of King's Landing". He also said they should "flog the stragglers" hinting that some wagons are left behind. Wouldn't it be safe to assume that not all the wagons from the harvest have yet reached the Lannister army? 

Anyway, if Cersei won't get the gold she can't maintain her army either.

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15 hours ago, Jcat said:

Darkbastard -I don't want to read the books because I have witnessed the disappointment of too many book readers with aspects of the show.  Elio and Linda are prime examples.  I do enjoy watching their shrugs, sighs and eyes rolling back into their sockets everytime the post a video review.

I understand, but as the show has now surpassed the book content that shouldn't be an issue.  The self described "book wankers" who read everything before the show started definitely have an issue in this sense.

Totally your choice of course, but I think at this point it will fill in some of the gaps for you and give you a better understanding of GRRM's intent.  Just a thought!

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5 hours ago, Deminelle said:

It doesn't make sense that Dany would burn the food wagons, because she needs them as well. Just before the attack The Tarlys report to Jaime that "all the gold's safely through the gates of King's Landing". He also said they should "flog the stragglers" hinting that some wagons are left behind. Wouldn't it be safe to assume that not all the wagons from the harvest have yet reached the Lannister army? 

It's not like Dany knew the gold was already in Kings Landing, no doubt she thought there was still gold as well as food in the wagon train. Moreover, it's not like that was the last of the grain either. Even in D&D's world the idea that they harvested, loaded & transported every last ounce of food and grain in just a matter of days is ludicrous. The Lannisters took what they could, and planned to continue taking when they could. Now that Dany took the Reach, she has control of all the farms and the food which are still very operational.

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At 26m30s in the Episode in reply to Tyrion saying that Dany still has the largest army she says "Who won't be able to eat because Cersei has taken all the food from the Reach" . So Dany clearly knows about the Lannister armies activities after the fall of High Garden, and given the geography and the fact that such a large logistics train will need to move by road she knows it will be moving up the Rose Road to Kings Landing. Anyone who bothers to consult a map and put that together with Randyll Tarly telling Jaime about getting the stragglers over the Blackwater Rush can see that the battle of the Loot Train occured at the closest point on the mainland to Dragonstone where an army could be ambushed in the open. Everyone complaining about teleporting armies should probably bother to look at a map before doing so, as the distances involved for Dany to get her forces to meet the Lannister Army are pretty short, especially given that we are told twice in the episode that it is moving slowly (both the stragglers needing flogging comment, and earlier when bronn is despatched to speed up the confiscation of the harvest) and in addition Dany's forces (Dothraki and Dragons) are the fastest moving and most mobile forces in Westeros, and moreover not bound by roads. Whilst not definitive the evidence does seem to weigh pretty heavily in favour of the victory being a pretty strong feat of generalship both tactically and strategically by Dany - with a strong contribution from Jon and Tyrion in dissuading her from her first impetuous impulse. Given that what we can only go on what is in the show it's Dany who picked the battlefield. Her tactical contribution is more clear cut as she directs Drogon to puncture the shield wall at the precise time the Dothraki are about to hit it, then directs her fire along the rear of the Lannister line (so as not to burn any of her own troops engaged with the line itself), and then wheels and comes accross the water to hit the concentration of reserves Jaime is trying to form up behind the collapsing sheild wall.  The directors and producers did an amazing job of both zooming in and out to show how the battle unfolded.  

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6 hours ago, Deminelle said:

It doesn't make sense that Dany would burn the food wagons, because she needs them as well.

This bothered me at first , but on rewatching you can see that she can't burn the Lannister Line directly once the Dothraki have met it as she would be burning her own troops, so she burns a colunm of wagons immediately behind the line so the Lannisters can't retreat and use as the wagons as defence (a tactic used by Boers as well as in the old American West) as well as taking out the rear echelon of the Lannister line.  

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Twenty wagons cannot carry all the food in the reach.  They were carrying what was stored in Highgarden.  By eliminating that food, which was bound for KL, she was making a potential siege later on more effective.  The farmers in The Reach are still harvesting, there is plenty of food still there...and now most of the Lannister army is gone.  Lannisters cannot force The Reach to provide the rest of their harvests before winter, and the farmers will likely stay loyal to Dany since their lords and ladies were just slaughtered.

Boers and the American West are not an apt comparison, as firearms were the primary threat.  Hiding behind dispersed wagons in this fight would not serve much good against mounted riders.  She destroyed the shipments on purpose...and people will starve in KL because of it...unless the siege is short.

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14 hours ago, Jcat said:

Styl7 -good information.  And based on that fact, if the Targaryen's are like most imperial families there should be a whole bunch of descendents of the blood of the dragon.  I wonder what proportion of Targaryen blood is needed to become a dragonrider?

SansaJonRule -everyone has been pretty cool on this thread, after a little nastiness early on.

-In episode 5, if Daenerys does not thank any of her advisors in regard to the attack, I think that is confirmation that it was Daenerys' own idea.

                       

I dont think there is a specific proportion needed.. But many families have some Targaryen blood.. but still not many of them can ride dragon. There is a Martell in the books who tried and was burned alive...

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14 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

But dragons can be used for much more than burning enemies armies. Just to have aerial view in scouting is an advantage no one else has. Not to mention that just to show them, could be considered an effective war tactic as to infuse fear into  the enemies' soldiers. 

Just before this episode aired, I made a comment in the sense that the Dragonstone plot had no sense at all; why on earth would Dani bring 3 dragons to Westeros, to have them taking sun baths and fishing in a rock island where no one could see them?

Yes...yes...yes!  Dany and her council (including Tyrion) have screwed-up by not using the dragons to gather intelligence, and to create fear in the minds of those who would oppose her.

4 hours ago, Super Mario said:

It's not like Dany knew the gold was already in Kings Landing, no doubt she thought there was still gold as well as food in the wagon train. Moreover, it's not like that was the last of the grain either. Even in D&D's world the idea that they harvested, loaded & transported every last ounce of food and grain in just a matter of days is ludicrous. The Lannisters took what they could, and planned to continue taking when they could. Now that Dany took the Reach, she has control of all the farms and the food which are still very operational.

Good point.  And does the Reach freeze over in a normal winter?

3 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

This bothered me at first , but on rewatching you can see that she can't burn the Lannister Line directly once the Dothraki have met it as she would be burning her own troops, so she burns a colunm of wagons immediately behind the line so the Lannisters can't retreat and use as the wagons as defence (a tactic used by Boers as well as in the old American West) as well as taking out the rear echelon of the Lannister line.  

Good observation.  She would be burning some of her own men if Drogon used his flamethrower down the line of battle.  On the other hand I did not see a lot of Lannister soldiers hiding behind the wagons.

3 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

Twenty wagons cannot carry all the food in the reach.  They were carrying what was stored in Highgarden.  By eliminating that food, which was bound for KL, she was making a potential siege later on more effective.  The farmers in The Reach are still harvesting, there is plenty of food still there...and now most of the Lannister army is gone.  Lannisters cannot force The Reach to provide the rest of their harvests before winter, and the farmers will likely stay loyal to Dany since their lords and ladies were just slaughtered.

Boers and the American West are not an apt comparison, as firearms were the primary threat.  Hiding behind dispersed wagons in this fight would not serve much good against mounted riders.  She destroyed the shipments on purpose...and people will starve in KL because of it...unless the siege is short.

Actually hiding behind wagons with a giant fire breathing dragon flying around does not seem very wise.  Just more stuff around you to burn.  Fortunately for the Boers and early American settlers their respective enemies' arsenals did not include such a weapon.

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2 hours ago, Styl7 said:

I dont think there is a specific proportion needed.. But many families have some Targaryen blood.. but still not many of them can ride dragon. There is a Martell in the books who tried and was burned alive...

Maybe Daenerys should go on Ancestry.com and gather all her remaining kin, and line them up in front of the dragons, and see which ones the great beasts prefer?  Frankly, I don't think many of her relatives would volunteer, because a rejection notice would hurt alot more than just one's pride.  To quote Seth Meyers..."Ya burnt."

 

 

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I don't think there would be many volunteers.. 

46 minutes ago, Jcat said:

Yes...yes...yes!  Dany and her council (including Tyrion) have screwed-up by not using the dragons to gather intelligence, and to create fear in the minds of those who would oppose her.

Good point.  And does the Reach freeze over in a normal winter?

Good observation.  She would be burning some of her own men if Drogon used his flamethrower down the line of battle.  On the other hand I did not see a lot of Lannister soldiers hiding behind the wagons.

Actually hiding behind wagons with a giant fire breathing dragon flying around does not seem very wise.  Just more stuff around you to burn.  Fortunately for the Boers and early American settlers their respective enemies' arsenals did not include such a weapon.

Dragons are fire made flesh.. And flower is power..but they could use her dragons not only to burn army or cities. She must show to the common folk who she is.. Her dragons are a wonder born again in to the world. Many might think that her dragons aren't real. If she shows  her dragons she shows them that she is special, the only one in the world..

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