Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Jcat

Who suggested Daenerys attack the Lannister army? Tyrion? Varys? Jon?

Recommended Posts

19 hours ago, Jcat said:

All good points and I agree with most of them.

Yeah it took me a while to figure out the multiple posts thing.  Here is how you do it.  You scroll down through the posts you want to comment on and hit the 'Quote' button on each one.  Then down at the bottom you will see a little tab with the number of quotes you clicked on (i.e. 3 Quotes).  All you do is click on that tab and all the quotes you selected will appear in the comment box.

Thanks, Jcat! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting points, Cade. I agree that Dany is trying to change Dothraki and Ironborn behaviour, but such change takes time. And having the Dothraki limit their violence to the battlefield is a change in the right direction. As for putting Dothraki lives in peril for her own gains, I believe that if she asked them directly what they wanted, they would have chosen the path she selected, rather than having her fight just with her dragons. In fact, I suspect they might have taken great offence at being left out of such a battle, especially given that "open fields" are their ideal fighting conditions,according to King Robert.

Finally, taking the Dothraki into battle wasn't just to keep them in line - it was also to keep them sharp. Better to bring them to a fight they can excel at than to bring a "rusty" army into battle in less than ideal conditions later on. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-08-12 at 2:43 AM, Illiterati said:

You have identified the number one tactical error she made.  Dothraki should have been nowhere near the line when she strafed it.

And did anyone else find it odd how the lead Dothraki warriors managed to ride right through blazing fire without getting burned? I'm willing to suspend my disbelief about Dany being "The Unburned," but her army? It's already been established that Dothraki (the Khals, at least) burn quite nicely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, I prefer summer said:

And did anyone else find it odd how the lead Dothraki warriors managed to ride right through blazing fire without getting burned? I'm willing to suspend my disbelief about Dany being "The Unburned," but her army? It's already been established that Dothraki (the Khals, at least) burn quite nicely.

Well that something I can't understand either...

just one thing.. The Unburned doesn't necessarily mean fireproof..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, cade said:

I doubt they even had the budget to do the CG and stunt work necessary to show Drogon burning hundreds or thousands of people. It was much cheaper to use practical effects to blow up the wagons, and they already set a record with the amount of stunt people they set on fire, both in total (63) and simultaneously (20). Amazing work by the production crew.

I agree! The Inside the Episode demonstration of how they achieved the battle effects was almost as good as the show!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Deminelle said:

Lady Olenna was the one to tell Dany not to listen to the sheep but be a dragon.

Yeah...I would be a liitle careful from taking advice from Lady Olenna.  She did not play the game very well after she offed Joffrey.  And she ultimately lost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, I prefer summer said:

Interesting points, Cade. I agree that Dany is trying to change Dothraki and Ironborn behaviour, but such change takes time. And having the Dothraki limit their violence to the battlefield is a change in the right direction. As for putting Dothraki lives in peril for her own gains, I believe that if she asked them directly what they wanted, they would have chosen the path she selected, rather than having her fight just with her dragons. In fact, I suspect they might have taken great offence at being left out of such a battle, especially given that "open fields" are their ideal fighting conditions,according to King Robert.

Finally, taking the Dothraki into battle wasn't just to keep them in line - it was also to keep them sharp. Better to bring them to a fight they can excel at than to bring a "rusty" army into battle in less than ideal conditions later on. 

Yeah somebody mentioned something similar on a Youtube show--what does Daenerys do with the Dothraki assuming she wins the Iron Throne?  I don't think it is possible to reform the Dothraki into good, law abiding Westerosi.  So thats a real problem.  Of course, cynically the best thing to do is to almost use them all up, and send the rest back to Essos with pockets full of gold after everything is done.

Or how things should have worked-out for the Sarmatian Knights in the movie King Arthur 2004.  The Sarmatians who hailed from Scythia were a much better equavalent for the Dothraki than the Huns or Mongols.  They fit the racial profile better and they were reputed wildmen (at least in classical Greek times).

I don't know if people compare the Dothraki to Mongols, but if they do thats not a good analogy.  The Mongols would never have been so rash as to straight away charge a formed line.  They would have weakened the line first with their main weapon the compound bow, wheeling in precise mounted formation the likes of which few cavalry forces have every achieved.  Of course, Genghis Khan and his descendents didn't have a dragon to call on which is probably a good thing as far as western civilization is concerned.

2 hours ago, Styl7 said:

Well that something I can't understand either...

just one thing.. The Unburned doesn't necessarily mean fireproof..

Yeah...thats kinda of a problem.  But in a show were people are brought back from being stone cold dead, I think it's probably best not to think about it too much.  I suppose it has to be some kind of spiritual quality (dragon power), rather than a physical quality (asbestos-lined skin).

1 hour ago, cade said:

Agreed on all points. I wasn't saying she shouldn't have taken the Dothraki with her, just doubting that it was necessary or wise to have so many of them die charging into the phalanx when she could've so easily broken it beforehand. But I'll stop nitpicking about this and just concede that rather than saying it made no sense, I should just say it's subjective.

I doubt they even had the budget to do the CG and stunt work necessary to show Drogon burning hundreds or thousands of people. It was much cheaper to use practical effects to blow up the wagons, and they already set a record with the amount of stunt people they set on fire, both in total (63) and simultaneously (20). Amazing work by the production crew.

Daenerys and Drogon are like the air force, while the Dothraki are the ground force required to hold the field of battle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/8/2017 at 9:42 AM, El Guapo said:

The fact that Dany even asks Jon his opinion is an indication of the worth she is starting to place on him.  In the next episode preview he is actually in the painted table chamber with her and her council.

Both Dany and Jon were chosen by the people to lead- unlike Cersai and other rulers. It would make sense that she values his opinion as someone who is as close to his peer as there is. She wants him to bend the knee but why should he? Because she has dragons and the Dothraki? That's ruling by fear which is not how Jon and I believe Dany want to rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, WCPhan said:

Both Dany and Jon were chosen by the people to lead- unlike Cersai and other rulers. It would make sense that she values his opinion as someone who is as close to his peer as there is. She wants him to bend the knee but why should he? Because she has dragons and the Dothraki? That's ruling by fear which is not how Jon and I believe Dany want to rule.

Good point.  Of course, Daenerys seems to be surrendering to more expedient and brutal measures.

Ok.  Thanks everyone for your thoughts.  It's just a bit over an hour from show time here.  Therefore I will make my best guess to answer the question posed by this thread.

I would very much like if Tyrion was the one who suggested the attack.  He needs the win as badly as Daenerys herself.  But I think the script calls for him to become increasingly sidelined as the Queen's Hand for now anyways.  So unfortunately he was not the one.

So who is the mastermind?  I would agree with those who suggested Davos.  I don't know why it just sort of makes sense.

However, never underestimate D & D to just move on and leave it an open question.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing!  I guess Daenerys figured it out all her little self.  Episode 5 is one of the worst episodes ever.  I am really unhappy with D & D's writing, I can't believe GRRM approved of this crap!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-08-08 at 4:51 PM, Jcat said:
In this episode, Daenerys was all motivated to go and burn down the Red Keep after hearing about the defeat of her Tyrell allies.  Then Tyrion and Jon in turn advise her against it.  Next we see Daenerys, Drogon and the Dothraki attack the marching Lannister forces.  So who advised her to take that action?  Tyrion?  Varys?  Jon?  Missandei?  Daenerys herself?
 
Attacking the Lannister/Tarly forces, who were strung out in column and heavily laden with supply wagons, was a master stroke.  Of course, no one ever bothers with reconnaissance or counter-reconnaissance in this world so they are constantly being surprised.  Nevertheless, given the current operational situation facing Daenerys' forces it was the correct decision.  (She should not have gone after the Red Keep--Cersei likely has an air defense battery of Scorpions (i.e. ballistas) and the Dothraki are shit at sieges).
 
I am not a book reader, and I don't usually get upset about plot inconsistencies and clumsy character arcs.  But, if D & D don't reveal who advised Daenerys to make that attack I am going to lose my shit!  Personally, I hope it was Tyrion, because he could use a win.  But who do you think it was?

Lol master stroke? Danerys in game of thrones is the most stupid person i have ever seen in television.

At the start of season 7 she has like 500-1000 ships, 100,000 Dothraki, 10,000 Unsullied, Dorne, Reach and sellswords with her and 3 dragons and the Lannisters have like 30,000 troops and Danerys has been completely crippled and forced to peace. How fucking stupid do you have to be to fail so hard. A toddler would be sitting the Iron Throne allready with Westeros united.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Lol master stroke? Danerys in game of thrones is the most stupid person i have ever seen in television.

At the start of season 7 she has like 500-1000 ships, 100,000 Dothraki, 10,000 Unsullied, Dorne, Reach and sellswords with her and 3 dragons and the Lannisters have like 30,000 troops and Danerys has been completely crippled and forced to peace. How fucking stupid do you have to be to fail so hard. A toddler would be sitting the Iron Throne allready with Westeros united.

There is no 'drama' in easy victories.  I don't mind some drama, as long as it is logically coherent.  Daenerys' strategy has been a farce up to the Field of Fire 2.0.  And unfortunately my favorite character Tyrion was the author of that strategy.  Damn show runners!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×