Dothraki, actually that good on the open field?

[Ivan33]

5 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well maybe you’re right, maybe you’re not.

But, I sure would like to see Mr. Dothraki “Your people can’t fight” guy say that shit to somebody like Brienne or Sandor.

Cause he might look awful funny trying to eat corn on the cobb with no fuckin’ teeth.

Well it'll be amusing if he said it to Gregor more than anyone else really.

Trash Talker the Dothraki: Mouthing off to the mauntain.

Ser Gregor Clegane: Loud laugh thats muffled by screams and a "popping sound" is heard.

DOthraki: #_#

 

Anyways they were pathetic i mean lets have a what if scenario.
Against equal numbers and on one side we have westeros armies(in a world where joffrey isn't known or suspected as a bastard). Now i really want to see the dothraki against armored knight led into a charge by Ser Gregor Clegane and let's throw in Robb Stark and his direwolf on field of battle,Ser Jaime Lannister,Barristan Selmy the bold as well but those are frontline commanders(except Robb). So we must have more generals,how about Ned Stark,Jon Arryn,Stannis Baratheon oh and yeah Tywin. To make it somewhat unfairer i'll give leadership of the dothraki to an alive and well Drogo and we'll have a massive fertilizer lying around from all the dothraki.

Against weaker numbers they could be effective but against comparable numbers not so much. and the whole khalasar isn't fighting men they have slave,women children and what not. Now imagine how bad it would be for morale if Ser Gregor Clegane took care of raiding them.

[Samwell_Tarly]

 

6 hours ago, snow is the man said:

uh no. The dothraki weapons are useless against armor and most of the lannister soldiers wore armor. the only time a full on cavalry charge is a good idea against heavy infantry with spears and shield is when the heavy cavalry is well armored,very well disciplined,and in a good formation. The last time the dothraki fought in a real war was hundreds of years ago. All they do is raid and enslave people. They wear no armor so a few hundred archers could decimate them and a pike formation would destroy them. Since according to the books (and the show has given absolutely no reason for us to think otherwise) the dothraki think men of foot are fit only to be ridden down. So essentially it's full on cavalry charge with cavalry archers as well every time. If the lannisters and used pikes and shileds the dothraki would have been decimated with little damage to the lannisters.

The Lannisters did use pikes and shields...............

6 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I think the dothraki are way over estimated. They managed to catch the lannister army off guard (that made absoluetly no sense they should have at least had an outrider give them a few hours notice)

Who should have had an outrider?

6 hours ago, snow is the man said:

and yet even with that,superior numbers,and the lannisters not having all their troops together if it hadn't been for the dragons the dothraki would have got most of their men killed even if they had won.

I very much doubt it. Robert Baratheon knew how formiddable they were and have never seen them.

6 hours ago, snow is the man said:

 

  Individualy the dothraki are great warriors without a doubt.  Also there is a reason that people that could afford armor in the old days usually bought it. And despite what most people think the  armor in the midevil ages weighed less then what american soldiers wear now (all their equipment not just their kevlar and helmet). The idea that they needed cranes to get on their horses came from a play in the 1800's. At the height of plate armor  swords were rarely used against heavy armor but they used war hammers and such. Basically heavy armor was incredibly expensive but worth it and while it didn't make you invincible it made you alot harder to kill.

Quite obviously not as seen by bronn, he made light work killing the Knight of the Vale.

[plastic throne]

On 10. 8. 2017 at 2:16 AM, snow is the man said:

uh no. The dothraki weapons are useless against armor and most of the lannister soldiers wore armor. the only time a full on cavalry charge is a good idea against heavy infantry with spears and shield is when the heavy cavalry is well armored,very well disciplined,and in a good formation. The last time the dothraki fought in a real war was hundreds of years ago. All they do is raid and enslave people. They wear no armor so a few hundred archers could decimate them and a pike formation would destroy them. Since according to the books (and the show has given absolutely no reason for us to think otherwise) the dothraki think men of foot are fit only to be ridden down. So essentially it's full on cavalry charge with cavalry archers as well every time. If the lannisters and used pikes and shileds the dothraki would have been decimated with little damage to the lannisters.

I think the dothraki are way over estimated. They managed to catch the lannister army off guard (that made absoluetly no sense they should have at least had an outrider give them a few hours notice) and yet even with that,superior numbers,and the lannisters not having all their troops together if it hadn't been for the dragons the dothraki would have got most of their men killed even if they had won.  Individualy the dothraki are great warriors without a doubt.  Also there is a reason that people that could afford armor in the old days usually bought it. And despite what most people think the  armor in the midevil ages weighed less then what american soldiers wear now (all their equipment not just their kevlar and helmet). The idea that they needed cranes to get on their horses came from a play in the 1800's. At the height of plate armor  swords were rarely used against heavy armor but they used war hammers and such. Basically heavy armor was incredibly expensive but worth it and while it didn't make you invincible it made you alot harder to kill.

I agree, but with the right leader in place, they could become a force to be reckoned with. Mongol style! However, I think we're looking into it too much, it's a show after all and they'll bend their (Dothrakis/Lannisters/WW) skills and such according to the outcome they want and according to the balance (odds should always be 50:50). They just don't think their viewers are able to pick off such things, in other words, they think of us as a dumb cattle. Battle of the bastards is all the proof you need. Focus fire to create a big wall of bodies, lol. Nonetheless, this battle was a big, big improvement from the last season's.

PS: They could just, you know, make Danny spread fire in line with infantry just as she did to those wagons. And end the day with zero casualties But then they loose the drama, Bronn jumping around, so better just make her less intelligent, less smart until plot calls for something else.

 

 

[plastic throne]

37 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

The Lannisters did use pikes and shields...............

Quite obviously not as seen by bronn, he made light work killing the Knight of the Vale.

Those were spears. Pikes are much, much longer and with 3,4 lines deep there is no way Dothrakis would ever reach their shields even.

Open battle where you get hit from all sides at once and duel is not the same. anyone of importance in such universe would go into battle in full armor, no doubt about that. Nonetheless, it is incredibly hard to kill a fully plated knight with shield even in 1v1 scenario. Like really, really hard, especially with a 2 hand sword. Maces were invented for a reason - interestingly though, I never saw one in GoT, yet so many fully armored folks, especially in first few seasons.

I'd say that rather than 'being lighter', it was Bronn's skill that won the fight.

[Mikkel]

24 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

I'd say that rather than 'being lighter', it was Bronn's skill that won the fight.

True, that and arrogance on the part of his opponent. Though skill and being lighter go hand-in-hand in a way: Putting Bronn in a full suit of plate (without extensive training in its use) wouldn't do him many favors.

[Samwell_Tarly]

19 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

Those were spears. Pikes are much, much longer and with 3,4 lines deep there is no way Dothrakis would ever reach their shields even.

small pikes then...  

19 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

Open battle where you get hit from all sides at once and duel is not the same.

The Dothraki was that big it did hit the Army from all sides.

19 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

anyone of importance in such universe would go into battle in full armor, no doubt about that. Nonetheless, it is incredibly hard to kill a fully plated knight with shield even in 1v1 scenario. Like really, really hard, especially with a 2 hand sword. Maces were invented for a reason - interestingly though, I never saw one in GoT, yet so many fully armored folks, especially in first few seasons.

I'd say that rather than 'being lighter', it was Bronn's skill that won the fight.

If Bronns skill won the fight then against the knight, he was outskilled against that Dothraki, he knew that hence why he headed for the Ballista. So if Bronn is more skilled than the knight, and that Dothraki is more skilled then Bronn. Aslong as the Dothraki understand the concept of armour then they would win against the knight. There advantage lies shearly in the numbers they have. 

[plastic throne]

58 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

The Dothraki was that big it did hit the Army from all sides.

If Bronns skill won the fight then against the knight, he was outskilled against that Dothraki, he knew that hence why he headed for the Ballista. So if Bronn is more skilled than the knight, and that Dothraki is more skilled then Bronn. Aslong as the Dothraki understand the concept of armour then they would win against the knight. There advantage lies shearly in the numbers they have. 

You can't look at it like that, it could just be that that particular Dothraki was THAT good whilst others aren't. Or Bronn having a bad day, shocked or injured himself a bit with that fall or perhaps being taken back by a lucky hit from the enemy,... There's so many variables in a real fight it is difficult to just point one out. Even so, duel is not the same as full scale battle, never was and that was my point. 100 dismounted Dothrakis vs 100 (or even 50) dismounted knights, I would put my money on the knights, always. There's a reason medieval nobility fought in full plate (and rarely died on field).

And for that reason (my sole point), while I can understand why particular someone would go into duel in lighter armor, I have no idea why anyone of importance would go into battles in little to no armor (even when they do, no helmet is a must). They should all be in full plate if they value their lives. There's no amount of skill that could save you when you are hit behind/side or shot at with arrows (which, in battles all happens a lot hence it is different from duel). Sure you can dance around, give an impression, a show of your skills in a chaos battle (where ranks are totally broke and carnage starts), but at the first strike/wrong move you're dead, no exception. Fully plated warriors/knights can be hit time after time and still come out victorious (perfect counter to that is/was maces/warhammers).

Danny for example went into battle almost in a nightgown I get that many people aren't troubled with this but for me, it kinda ruins the immersion. This universe, though magical, still tries to remain/draws from realism and realistic behavior, draws from history. Yet times and times again, I get that "superhero" feel, like I'm watching some anime.

[snow is the man]

11 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

 

The Lannisters did use pikes and shields...............

Who should have had an outrider?

I very much doubt it. Robert Baratheon knew how formiddable they were and have never seen them.

Quite obviously not as seen by bronn, he made light work killing the Knight of the Vale.

the lannisters should have had outriders or scouts basically keeping an eye out. 

How could robert baratheon truly know how formidable dothraki are if he hadn't seen them. He had likely never met one,never seen one fight,or knew anyone who had. So basically his whole experience with them was rumours from halfway around the world.

It's a TV show and Bronn is incredibly skilled which has been shown time and time again. And a one on one duel is very different from a full scale battle. In a duel it's one person getting all your focus but in battle their is enemies all around and arrows flying around.

[Alfonso Sánchez]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, there should be quite a few Dothraki that are as good or even better than these two. They are both no longer what they were when the series began, and especially Brienne actually lacks the killer instinct most Dothraki should have (speaking about the books, of course).

well, looking at their arakhs, they would be actually be slower than Brienne and the Hound, since the mass center of the weapon is aimed toward the tip, it makes sense to use that weapon on a light cavalry charge, but not in a charge against a medieval knight, were the knight has a lance.

In the ground, the longsword or bastard sword would be faster, as they have pommels and a center of gravity near the handle, making the slashes faster and the length advantage would allow the westerosi to be better at riposting, all in all, there is a reason for the mongols to avoid direct confrontation with the medieval knights, instead leading them to ambushes and fake retreats. 

I think perhaps Drogo would have been up to the task, but he too, is known as a rarity among the Dothraki.

[Alfonso Sánchez]

1 hour ago, snow is the man said:

the lannisters should have had outriders or scouts basically keeping an eye out. 

How could robert baratheon truly know how formidable dothraki are if he hadn't seen them. He had likely never met one,never seen one fight,or knew anyone who had. So basically his whole experience with them was rumours from halfway around the world.

It's a TV show and Bronn is incredibly skilled which has been shown time and time again. And a one on one duel is very different from a full scale battle. In a duel it's one person getting all your focus but in battle their is enemies all around and arrows flying around.

Also, the show overestimates the weight of the heavy armor, whilst heavy, the man of arms in the middle ages were quite profficient at fighting, what I consider was the bane of said vale knight, was his shield choice, one does not use a tower shield against a single opponent, that is what a buckler or a kite shield is for.

[snow is the man]

10 minutes ago, Alfonso Sánchez said:

Also, the show overestimates the weight of the heavy armor, whilst heavy, the man of arms in the middle ages were quite profficient at fighting, what I consider was the bane of said vale knight, was his shield choice, one does not use a tower shield against a single opponent, that is what a buckler or a kite shield is for.

Personally I think they would be exhausted but not because of the weight but the sheer amount of stuff covering your body. You usually had a few layers of cloth and leath then chainmail then plate. It didn't lend itself to be very cool. Also it could  limit movement. That said in a battlefield alot of people died from arrows and actually getting stabbed in the back by someone just running by. And I agree that shield the vale knight use seemed a bit much for one on one. Sheilds were very heavy because they were woods and metal.

[Alfonso Sánchez]

1 minute ago, snow is the man said:

Personally I think they would be exhausted but not because of the weight but the sheer amount of stuff covering your body. You usually had a few layers of cloth and leath then chainmail then plate. It didn't lend itself to be very cool. Also it could  limit movement. That said in a battlefield alot of people died from arrows and actually getting stabbed in the back by someone just running by. And I agree that shield the vale knight use seemed a bit much for one on one. Sheilds were very heavy because they were woods and metal.

Agree with everything, but the thing is, there are metals who even when not that thick are pretty strong against impacts, and you would be surprised by the mild steel weight of a steel plate, is not THAT heavy, another thing is, kite shields could be used very profficiently to disarm opponents, slam them, and all around, make somebody's day miserable.

I would recommend looking at this video, I believe that this guy does know his swords and shields.

 

 

[snow is the man]

5 minutes ago, Alfonso Sánchez said:

Agree with everything, but the thing is, there are metals who even when not that thick are pretty strong against impacts, and you would be surprised by the mild steel weight of a steel plate, is not THAT heavy, another thing is, kite shields could be used very profficiently to disarm opponents, slam them, and all around, make somebody's day miserable.

I would recommend looking at this video, I believe that this guy does know his swords and shields.

 

 

Oh I know armor didn't have to be heavy it actually weighed less then what modern soldiers gear weighs. I only meant that it would be like wearing four layers of shirts. Their light in terms of weight but you would get real hot in them. Also I was only saying that his giant shield was a bit much.

[Alfonso Sánchez]

20 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

Oh I know armor didn't have to be heavy it actually weighed less then what modern soldiers gear weighs. I only meant that it would be like wearing four layers of shirts. Their light in terms of weight but you would get real hot in them. Also I was only saying that his giant shield was a bit much.

And those are exactly the points we are in agreement