What Are Your Choices for the Most Despicable and Unlikable Characters in all of Literature ?

[Annara Snow]

Simon Kress from Sandkings. The true monster of that novella. I was rooting for the sandkings in the end.

GRRM is really great at creating and even writing from the POV of despicable characters.

[SeanF]

22 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Simon Kress from Sandkings. The true monster of that novella. I was rooting for the sandkings in the end.

GRRM is really great at creating and even writing from the POV of despicable characters.

I'd say that Sandkings had a happy ending.

[SeanF]

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 2:05 AM, C.T. Phipps said:

 

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In the end, Glokta got, "If you can't beat em. Join em."

Mind you, the reason for the brutality and corruption of the Union is Bayaz himself.

So no reason to root it out.

 

Almost every character in Best Served Cold is despicable, although it remains my favourite Abercromibie novel.

[Annara Snow]

18 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'd say that Sandkings had a happy ending.

I think you're right.

 

You can look at it this way: the villain is killed at the end, and his abused slaves are now free and prospering. It's especially fitting that the orange sandkings were the ones to survive, as they were the underdogs the whole time, and I don't think they had killed any of the innocent people in the story. [/spoiler]

[HexMachina]

11 hours ago, SeanF said:

Almost every character in Best Served Cold is despicable, although it remains my favourite Abercromibie novel.

Mine too. Despicable characters are just so damn entertaining.

 

edit: the audiobook is really a wonderful listen too, if you haven’t tried it you should. And I say this as someone not really into the whole audio book thing

[Iskaral Pust]

Shakespeare had some greats: Iago, Lady Macbeth, Portia.

Glotka is memorable but I don’t dislike the character.  He’s the literary opposite of Umbridge.  His self-awareness and internal monologue makes him a great character who does despicable things.

Too many books use cartoonish antagonists to ennoble the protagonist.  WoT especially. 

Portia is my overall pick because she was intended as a hero.  Aslan would be up there too. 

[Yukle]

On 1/23/2018 at 10:41 AM, Iskaral Pust said:

Shakespeare had some greats: Iago, Lady Macbeth, Portia.

Iago is really unlikable to me as he seems to personify evil without any particular reason for doing so. I know it was meant to be a commentary on evil lacking a soul, and being arbitrary and so on, but it made Iago seem to lack and depth.

Lady Macbeth, on the other hand, is well written... and thoroughly detestable as a result.

[C.T. Phipps]

I never had too many issues with Iago but I viewed him as motivated by petty jealousy and racism.

Nothing supernatural needs to be said about a guy who dislikes a rich foreigner marrying above the lowly guard's station.

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, Yukle said:

Iago is really unlikable to me as he seems to personify evil without any particular reason for doing so. I know it was meant to be a commentary on evil lacking a soul, and being arbitrary and so on, but it made Iago seem to lack and depth.

Eh, that's very debatable... Who says he was supposed to be a "commentary on evil being arbitrary and so on"? It's not like Shakespeare told us that. That interpretation was the work of renowned 19th century critics whose word many take as gospel - but I always considered it BS, as Iago's motivations are pretty much staring you in the face. It's not that complicated. It's just that those critics really didn't want to see it.

[Yukle]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

Eh, that's very debatable... Who says he was supposed to be a "commentary on evil being arbitrary and so on"? It's not like Shakespeare told us that. That interpretation was the work of renowned 19th century critics whose word many take as gospel - but I always considered it BS, as Iago's motivations are pretty much staring you in the face. It's not that complicated. It's just that those critics really didn't want to see it.

If that's the case, I'm unaware of it. I didn't study Othello, just saw it at the theatre. What are his motivations, from what you gather?

[C.T. Phipps]

3 hours ago, Yukle said:

If that's the case, I'm unaware of it. I didn't study Othello, just saw it at the theatre. What are his motivations, from what you gather?

I took three Shakespeare classes and got to read and watch the text both that it's not really a mystery. People have tried to make Iago supernaturally evil or bring a new interpretation to him but he's actually 3-dimensional in his motivations as is.

1. Iago thinks Othello slept with his wife.

I hate the Moor;
And it is thought abroad that 'twixt my sheets
He has done my office: I know not if't be true;
But I, for mere suspicion in that kind,
Will do as if for surety.

2. Iago hates the fact Othello is in charge of him.

3. Othello appointed Michael above Iago despite the fact the man is underqualified.

4. There's a surprising amount of racism for the 17th century that is straight upfront a large part of why Iago hates him.

I actually considered doing a version of Othello set in the New York City police department based on this.

But, honestly, none of these are particularly bad motivations for framing a superior officer's wife for adultery with another superior officer in hopes of taking them all out.

It's arguably better motivated than Littlefinger, his obvious descendant.

[Annara Snow]

7 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I took three Shakespeare classes and got to read and watch the text both that it's not really a mystery. People have tried to make Iago supernaturally evil or bring a new interpretation to him but he's actually 3-dimensional in his motivations as is.

1. Iago thinks Othello slept with his wife.

I hate the Moor;
And it is thought abroad that 'twixt my sheets
He has done my office: I know not if't be true;
But I, for mere suspicion in that kind,
Will do as if for surety.

2. Iago hates the fact Othello is in charge of him.

3. Othello appointed Michael above Iago despite the fact the man is underqualified.

4. There's a surprising amount of racism for the 17th century that is straight upfront a large part of why Iago hates him.

I actually considered doing a version of Othello set in the New York City police department based on this.

But, honestly, none of these are particularly bad motivations for framing a superior officer's wife for adultery with another superior officer in hopes of taking them all out.

It's arguably better motivated than Littlefinger, his obvious descendant.

Yeah, the fact that Othello is black and seen as a outsider in Venice is one of the themes in the play and constantly brought up. Tthere's a huge amount of racism displayed by several characters in the text. Desdemona isn't racist and neither are Cassio or Emilia, IIRC (so, the likable characters), but Brabantio (Desmona's father) is ultra-racist, Roderigo (Desdemona's unsuccessful suitor) is racist, and Iago himself says a lot of racist stuff at various point, and uses racist ideas to undermine Othello's confidence and poison his mind, such as that Desdemona couldn't possibly love him and had to have an agenda in deciding to marry him (he does that presenting it as a friendly concern and brutal honesty, making Othello think he's the only one telling him the truth that everyone knows/thinks). So, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Iago is quite racist, too.

I got an impression that the 19th century critics that I referred to earlier, the ones who championed the idea of Iago being "evil with no motive", just really didn't want to see the obvious racism in the story. They tend to ignore it and even claim that Othello being black is just something random and of no consequence to the story, which made me go "oh come on, really?" while reading that stuff at the university.

Then there's also the fact that Iago straight up tells the audience, in the first scene, his other reasons for resenting Othello, which you mentioned. It's weird how many people claim that Iago has no "motive" and then go on to dismiss the motives that Shakespeare provided right from the start.

Regarding Othello supposedly sleeping with Iago's wife, it's not even that he believes it to be true - he says himself he doesn't know, but the mere rumor/suspicion is enough to hate Othello. A lot of people have to try to dismiss that on the grounds that it's very unlikely to be true, from what we see of Othello and Emilia in the play, and that Iago doesn't love his wife. Which is true - Iago doesn't love anyone and he doesn't particularly seem to care about his wife, but that's not the point. Being "cuckolded" was traditionally one of the greatest male fears (it pops up everywhere in Renaissance literature or medieval literature, like Canterbury Tales), because it meant the greatest possible insult to one's reputation and masculinity. Being "cuckolded" by a black man would be even worse in the minds of most men of that time (and not just that time). So the fact that there's a rumor about it is enough to piss Iago off.

Iago's resentment over being passed over for promotion and that he's lower in the ranks has also been dismissed by many traditional critics - I guess because it just seems too petty for what they think a main villain in a tragedy should be. But that's the point! Iago is petty. He is indeed like Littlefinger, only without the romantic angle - petty, jealous, proud, ambitious and malicious. He resents not being the highest ranked person there, he resents a black guy who's his superior, who's a celebrated warrior and stronger and braver than him and overall a better person, and who's even been rumored to have "cuckolded" him - in other words, people seem to see Othello as more "masculine" and superior in every way. He'd probably hate a white guy from Venice for those same reasons, but the fact Othello is a "blackamoor" makes it much worse in Iago's eyes. We all know guys like that in real life. The only difference is that most of them would not be able to be such skillful schemers as Iago. 

[SeanF]

The only point at which I'd agree with the "motiveless malignity" argument is that racial prejudice and jealousy at being passed over for promotion seem like very slight motives for embarking on a hugely dangerous plot to frame a man's wife for adultery, so that he'll murder her in turn.  A plot which will ultimately result in Iago being tortured and executed.

 I suppose that Iago is the white counterpart of Aaron in Titus Andronicus, who commits appalling crimes (for which he pays a very unpleasant price in the end) for petty reasons.

One thing that is bleakly funny is reading 19th century critics ignoring the text in order to try to argue that Othello isn't really black at all, but rather an Arab.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Uriah Heep from David Copperfield.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

On 8/17/2017 at 10:47 PM, brunhilda said:

Kvothe

Why do you dislike Kvothe.  He's reckless, thoughtless, and a tad self involved, but charismatic all the same.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

18 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I never had too many issues with Iago but I viewed him as motivated by petty jealousy and racism.

Nothing supernatural needs to be said about a guy who dislikes a rich foreigner marrying above the lowly guard's station.

What makes Iago scary to me, is that we never really learn what his motivation is.  We just know he hates Othello, we never really know why.

[Annara Snow]

54 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What makes Iago scary to me, is that we never really learn what his motivation is.  We just know he hates Othello, we never really know why.

We just posted several posts pointing out his motivations.

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

We just posted several posts pointing out his motivations.

Lol.  Your posts above were excellent.  We did a lengthy examination of Othello in a tragedy class and we collectively came to similar conclusions.  

Re: Kvothe: 

He's no Iago, but he's not that sympathetic.  He's petty, narcissistic, and his only charisma comes from the fact that despite his crumminess, he usually ends up succeeding.  He lives an interesting life, but he's not likeable.  At least to me.  If I met him I'd probably think "whoa whoa whoa here comes mr. douchefantastic hissself"

[C.T. Phipps]

Re: Iago

Well the thing about Iago is he actually doesn't do the majority of the horrible shit which ends up destroying Othello. Yeah, he frames Michael and Desdemona but he's not really someone who is taking that many risks. It's also not really that difficult for him to get Othello to turn on his bride because he's naturally a suspicious and resentful person because--well, he has reason to be except to his wife.

Slander is the cheapest form of destroying someone.

Re: Kvothe

I'm probably never going to have this confirmed but I do like the idea Kvothe is meant to be completely full of himself. He thinks he's telling the unvarnished truth about himself but the fact is he's so naturally full of himself that he can't help but see it all through the perspective of himself as the world's most awesome man.

Then again, maybe I've giving Rothfuss too much credit.

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Re: Iago

Well the thing about Iago is he actually doesn't do the majority of the horrible shit which ends up destroying Othello. Yeah, he frames Michael and Desdemona but he's not really someone who is taking that many risks. It's also not really that difficult for him to get Othello to turn on his bride because he's naturally a suspicious and resentful person because--well, he has reason to be except to his wife.

Slander is the cheapest form of destroying someone.

Yeah, and he could have so easily gotten away with it, and expected to do so. The only reason he didn't is that his wife put two and two together and exposed him - and that was because she happened to find Othello and dead Desdemona, argue with Othello and hear about the handkerchief. Iago clearly had underestimated her, either he didn't think she was smart enough or he didn't expect her to actually expose him (because wives were supposed to be obedient, and their own fortunes would improve if the husband was prospering rather than disgraced) - in any case, he seemed really surprised, as he lost it and killed her, instead of trying to deny her claims. Maybe he wasn't such a great mastermind after all... just a guy who thought he was smarter than everyone else.