Is Egg alive? Summerhall murder mystery.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

As others have pointed out, the Targaryens don't have "fire resistance." That obviously includes Egg, so we have no doubt he died in the fire that consumed Summerhall. The more interesting part of your question is the identity of the "unknown perpetrators" of his murder - if it was a murder. Suspect number one, as a member of the maester's conspiracy, has to be the newly appointed Grand Maester himself -  young Pycelle.

This! I also don't see what the point would be of Egg being alive,  the major mystery surrounding Summerhal, is who, how and why that fire started, not whether Egg survived or not. He'd be as old as Aemon if he did, and Aemon and BR are /were the Targaryen survivors to make the connection to that period in time. We don't really need another extremely old man to spark our interest. 

The point of Summerhal is that something terrible happened, and everybody died, and it was likely a maester's conspiracy... Of the most important figure of that tragedy would've survived survived, it would severely diminish the devastating impact of that event. It would be like Robb surviving the Red Wedding. Although I'd love for Robb to have survived, the whole point of the RW is that the King in the North is dead, and the huge powershift that resulted. If Robb would somehow have survived, it'd be a less intense event. 

The simple rule of thumb is that the people who's deaths change everything, ate meant to stay death. This includes Egg, Ned, Robb, Rhaegar, Tywin, and Aerys. If any of them survived, the game would change back to an earlier point in history. 

If Egg would still be alive, the whole Summerhal murder mystery would be sort of pointless, since he's the key figure who was murdered there. 

[TwiceBorn]

Quote

George_RR_Martin: Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold.

He was not a dragon. Egg was.

All GRRM has ever said was that not all Targaryens are immune to fire. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! = being Targ alone does not make you immune. In fact I could name at least two or three other Targs who died because they were burnt alive.
 

Quote

The simple rule of thumb is that the people who's deaths change everything, ate meant to stay death.

Berric, Cathelyn, Jon.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

22 hours ago, TwiceBorn said:

He was not a dragon. Egg was.

All GRRM has ever said was that not all Targaryens are immune to fire. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! = being Targ alone does not make you immune. In fact I could name at least two or three other Targs who died because they were burnt alive.
 

Berric, Cathelyn, Jon.

Being a dragon or not a dragon isn't literal. The only characters who think it is are crazy ones like Aerion Brightflame and possibly Aerys II.  When Dany says that Viserys wasn't a dragon because fire cannot kill a dragon you have to remember that her education was done entirely by Viserys, who left Westeros at the age of 9 at the oldest, and who according to Barristan was showing tendencies toward insanity even in his childhood.

GRRM himself said that Dany's surviving the pyre was a miraculous one-off event. The definition of a one-off event is that it has never occurred before and will not occur again. Targaryens are not fireproof, as GRRM has made abundantly clear.

You yourself compared Egg to Dany in terms of heat tolerance, but heat tolerance is not the same as being unable to burn, as evidenced by what GRRM has said about Dany's pyre miracle.

The point of Beric and Catelyn's deaths are to set up why Jon comes back as himself after skinchanging into Ghost. Per one of his editors, GRRM does things in threes. The first one is subtle: Beric has been brought back repeatedly and is losing parts of himself as evidenced by his inability to recall what his betrothed looks like. The second is less subtle: Thoros won't bring the three-days-dead Catelyn back because she will not be herself, and she indeed comes back not as Catelyn but as the vengeful Lady Stoneheart who cares more about what she think is justice than she does about finding the truth. The third will be Jon coming back unchanged because he is the only one of the three who is a skinchanger, and was able to shift his consciousness into Ghost while his body was dead. None of Beric's deaths "change everything" nor does Catelyn's. And since he's not going to stay dead, Jon's won't either.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

22 hours ago, TwiceBorn said:

He was not a dragon. Egg was.

All GRRM has ever said was that not all Targaryens are immune to fire. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! = being Targ alone does not make you immune. In fact I could name at least two or three other Targs who died because they were burnt alive.
 

Berric, Cathelyn, Jon.

@Lady Blizzardborn has already worded it much better than I could. In short Beric, Cat's and Jon's resurrection serve a purpose. They forward the plot, without their status/title being so important that the plot would develop backwards.

If Robb would be resurrected, the King in the North would be "alive", and the Northman could be united again, while the purpose of his death is to make the North fall apart.

It's Robb's that changes the entire game, not Cat's. That's why Cat can be resurrected, and Robb can't. 

Similar things are true for Aerys, Rhaegar and Egg. Even for Robert Baratheon, and Renly. Their deaths enabled new power dynamics, and open up the opportunity for other family members (like Jon, Sansa or Dany) to be willing to consider taking over their role as ruler. 

If Egg was alive, it would mess up Dany's plot, because his claim comes before her's and fAegon's. Egg would also have way too much information, and besides that, why would he not just come back after Summerhal, and say: "hey, yo I'm alive, give me my crown." a king has more influence and power than a spider. 

Now if we allow some leniency here, and say: some characters do come back (like fAegon's, although part of the point of his return is, the doubts about him being the real deal),  they can only come back after many years, when the new power changes are fully established, because if they come back earlier it would diminish the impact of their deaths. So say Egg or Rhaegar could possibly come back... Both would be problematic for the plot. Egg would simply be too old, and Rhaegar would entirely mess up Dany's plot. She might fight against fAegon's, believing he's fake, but she wouldn't fight Rhaegar. Viserys might have, but not Dany.

The point of Rhaegar's and Egg's deaths is also that their knowledge died with them. I don't think the books would benefit from characters who have all the important information. 

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

What came first the chicken or the Egg? The maesters heard the prophecy about the ptwp coming from their line so they tried to end the line to prevent the ptwp and therefore prevent the long night. By their logic; if the Horn of Valere is never found then Tarmon Gaidon cannot happen.

If not for Dunk...

 

Isn't Jon constantly flexing his hand to keep it from stiffening up due to scar tissue from burning?

 

Sorry for the tangent, I just don't see a purpose to egg being around anymore so I'm willing to get a bit fantastical.

[TwiceBorn]

On 19.08.2017 at 5:17 AM, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

Isn't Jon constantly flexing his hand to keep it from stiffening up due to scar tissue from burning?

He is not a dragon.

Being "a dragon" is not the same as being Targaryen. Even some dragonriders of old didn't have it (they died by the fire), so in theory Jon could bind with a dragon despite not having the heat resistance. Can't see him doing that as long as Ghost is alive though.

Aerion Brightflame thought he was "a dragon". He was not, hence the nickname. He died in flames despite being trueborn Targaryen.

I have a feeling that GRRM will not finish aSoIaF before he completes Dunk and Egg stories. And that he is OK with tv series overtaking books because the true revelations will be outside GoT. This is the reason why Rhaegar is not as prominent in GoT as he is in aSoIaF. There is more to those short stories than meets the eye.

[The Great Elk]

On 17/08/2017 at 9:41 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Granny: Do Targaryens become immune to fire once they "bond" to their dragons?

George_RR_Martin: Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold.

To clarify, GRRM says that being Targaryen does not inherently make you immune to flame, but he definitely doesn't go as far as saying that Dany's hatching was a one off as a result of blood magic.

I don't agree with the OP's assertion that Aegon could've survived Summerhall - his death is at the heart of the tragedy - but I just finished my first reading of the Dunk & Egg stories and like OP I also noticed several pointed hints at Aegon's uncommon resistance to heat, no subtler or more obtuse than the hints about Dany in aGoT.

It's by no means a sure thing, but what GRRM said does not preclude Dany and Egg inheriting some recessive dragonblood gene that others like Brightflame and Viserys didn't have.

"Targaryens are not immune to fire" just means that Targaryen lineage does not make you immune to fire. But the Targs who are truly "blood of the dragon" might be, and it would be just like GRRM to slide that subtle distinction past us.

That said, Egg is still dead, fireproof or not. Maybe he was murdered and the fire was used to hide it, maybe he drowned in the sand, there are lots of ways for people to die.

It is fun to wonder how and why he died if not by burning. I don't mind the theory involving the maesters. I also wonder whether Bloodraven was involved. Was there bad blood between him and Aegon after Egg sent him to the wall? Maybe Bran will learn the truth.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, The Great Elk said:

To clarify, GRRM says that being Targaryen does not inherently make you immune to flame, but he definitely doesn't go as far as saying that Dany's hatching was a one off as a result of blood magic.

I don't agree with the OP's assertion that Aegon could've survived Summerhall - his death is at the heart of the tragedy - but I just finished my first reading of the Dunk & Egg stories and like OP I also noticed several pointed hints at Aegon's uncommon resistance to heat, no subtler or more obtuse than the hints about Dany in aGoT.

It's by no means a sure thing, but what GRRM said does not preclude Dany and Egg inheriting some recessive dragonblood gene that others like Brightflame and Viserys didn't have.

"Targaryens are not immune to fire" just means that Targaryen lineage does not make you immune to fire. But the Targs who are truly "blood of the dragon" might be, and it would be just like GRRM to slide that subtle distinction past us.

That said, Egg is still dead, fireproof or not. Maybe he was murdered and the fire was used to hide it, maybe he drowned in the sand, there are lots of ways for people to die.

It is fun to wonder how and why he died if not by burning. I don't mind the theory involving the maesters. I also wonder whether Bloodraven was involved. Was there bad blood between him and Aegon after Egg sent him to the wall? Maybe Bran will learn the truth.

Since you didn't actually get to read my quote: TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. 

[Simadhor_saan]

On 20/08/2017 at 10:47 PM, TwiceBorn said:

There is more to those short stories than meets the eye.

100% agree to this, I think the information about Summerhall is somehow key to the next book, I think that's part of why WOIAF is important and had to come out before TWOW.

[The Great Elk]

55 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Since you didn't actually get to read my quote: TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. 

Yes I did, if you read my response you'd notice that I'm just pointing out the difference between what Martin said and what people extrapolate from that:

Martin makes no mention of blood magic, nor does he offer an explanation for Dany's (or Egg's) repeated demonstrations of a remarkably high tolerance for extreme heat. He simply points out that whatever magic protected Dany didn't protect her brother, or indeed Brightflame or a number of other Targs who were killed by fire, so clearly being a Targ doesn't make you fireproof. But Dany was, and was very pointedly shown to be on several other occasions. As was Egg.

All I'm saying is until Martin or the text states something absolutely unequivocally you should be wary of projecting or extrapolating

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 hours ago, The Great Elk said:

Yes I did, if you read my response you'd notice that I'm just pointing out the difference between what Martin said and what people extrapolate from that:

Martin makes no mention of blood magic, nor does he offer an explanation for Dany's (or Egg's) repeated demonstrations of a remarkably high tolerance for extreme heat. He simply points out that whatever magic protected Dany didn't protect her brother, or indeed Brightflame or a number of other Targs who were killed by fire, so clearly being a Targ doesn't make you fireproof. But Dany was, and was very pointedly shown to be on several other occasions. As was Egg.

All I'm saying is until Martin or the text states something absolutely unequivocally you should be wary of projecting or extrapolating

To reiterate:

1) Targs are not immune to fire. This is pretty unequivocal

2) The birth of Dany's dragons was unique. Also equivocal words from the author himself

Ok. I think I see your point. He absolutely said what I thought he said in clear, no uncertain terms.

 

[The Great Elk]

Dude, dial down the smartarse a bit. I'm trying to have a reasoned discussion with you.

"Targaryens are not immune to fire" does not mean "Dany is not immune to fire"

He goes to great lengths to point out the differences between "Targaryen blood" and "blood of the dragon"

Whatever magic saved Dany on Drogo's pyre wasn't unique to that moment because it was shown and deliberately foreshadowed a whole bunch of times earlier in the novel. Exactly like Egg's heat resistance is. Like, exactly the same.

Lots of other Targs don't have that magic, but clearly some do. That is the difference and that is what GRRM is very deliberately not saying. It doesn't contradict anything you already know. Why are you getting so beefy about it?

On 26/08/2017 at 4:01 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Ok. I think I see your point. He absolutely said what I thought he said in clear, no uncertain terms.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

6 hours ago, The Great Elk said:

Dude, dial down the smartarse a bit. I'm trying to have a reasoned discussion with you.

"Targaryens are not immune to fire" does not mean "Dany is not immune to fire"

He goes to great lengths to point out the differences between "Targaryen blood" and "blood of the dragon"

Whatever magic saved Dany on Drogo's pyre wasn't unique to that moment because it was shown and deliberately foreshadowed a whole bunch of times earlier in the novel. Exactly like Egg's heat resistance is. Like, exactly the same.

Lots of other Targs don't have that magic, but clearly some do. That is the difference and that is what GRRM is very deliberately not saying. It doesn't contradict anything you already know. Why are you getting so beefy about it?

 

Is Dany not a Targaryen? I must be confused. Let me check the text:

“We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn.”

- Kevan Lannister

“Fear not, my little friend. The blood of Aegon the Dragon flows in her veins.”

- Illyrio Mopatis

“ You will do better the next time. You are the blood of the dragon, you can make a hat.”

- Dany herself

Okay so Targs are not immune to fire, and apparently she *is* a Targ. A=B, so B=C here. Further contextual evidence being that Dany's eggs being hatched is a unique miracle, being either the birth of dragons, her surviving, or both. Since we already have the author's word that Targs are not immune to fire and this is a miracle, we can safely infer that it was her surviving or both. Luckily we do not need that inference since we already know from the fingertips of the author that Targs are not immune to fire and Dany is definitely a Targ both to in universe characters AND readers alike.

 

 

[Hiigara129]

OK to me the think the idea of Aegon V's survival is completely ridiculous. If he survived then he remains the King. Period. As far as we know there's no reason to think he would go into hiding and treat it as a de-facto abdication. It would also, as stated by others, cheapen the tragedy at Summherhall. Now the idea that it was a murder is quite interesting, though personally I discount the Maester's conspiracy idea. It have been Lords opposed to his reforms (which seems to be most of the Realm) or it could be closer to home, like an assassination attempt by a Targaryen Prince.

Also, I haven't read the Dunk and Egg books but can't seem to find anywhere online that cites Aegon V having any kind of fire resistance. Was he able to stand hotter baths or hold his hand over flames? I think it's likely that some Targaryens have higher heat resistance than normal people but t the only one that's survived walking into fire is Dany. Until and unless something else its revealed, Dany's survival s utterly unique and should be considered a one-off, unrepeatable action, like GRRM has implied.

[TwiceBorn]

9 hours ago, Hiigara129 said:

OK to me the think the idea of Aegon V's survival is completely ridiculous. If he survived then he remains the King. Period. As far as we know there's no reason to think he would go into hiding and treat it as a de-facto abdication.

He did hide his identity for a large part of his life. He was raised in such a way that he'd solve problems as commoners do, that is explicitly by not using or abusing his title and power. It was repeatedly shown that raveling his identity was risky and could cause severe consequences.

He could've gone into hiding after murder attempt.

[acwill07]

19 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Is Dany not a Targaryen? I must be confused. Let me check the text:

“We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn.”

- Kevan Lannister

“Fear not, my little friend. The blood of Aegon the Dragon flows in her veins.”

- Illyrio Mopatis

“ You will do better the next time. You are the blood of the dragon, you can make a hat.”

- Dany herself

Okay so Targs are not immune to fire, and apparently she *is* a Targ. A=B, so B=C here. Further contextual evidence being that Dany's eggs being hatched is a unique miracle, being either the birth of dragons, her surviving, or both. Since we already have the author's word that Targs are not immune to fire and this is a miracle, we can safely infer that it was her surviving or both. Luckily we do not need that inference since we already know from the fingertips of the author that Targs are not immune to fire and Dany is definitely a Targ both to in universe characters AND readers alike.

 

 

To act as if it isn't possible that Dany has some unique resistance to heat or fire that was not shared by other Targaryans is asinine.  There's no telling what is going to happen in the WOW and ADOS, but perhaps Dany ends up using this ability again in the process of escaping her captors or in some other capacity?  It's not out of the realm of possibility....

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, acwill07 said:

To act as if it isn't possible that Dany has some unique resistance to heat or fire that was not shared by other Targaryans is asinine.  There's no telling what is going to happen in the WOW and ADOS, but perhaps Dany ends up using this ability again in the process of escaping her captors or in some other capacity?  It's not out of the realm of possibility....

It is since she is not fireproof and the her funeral pyre experience is unique, but don't take my word for it. Or GRRMs.

[Hiigara129]

14 hours ago, TwiceBorn said:

He did hide his identity for a large part of his life. He was raised in such a way that he'd solve problems as commoners do, that is explicitly by not using or abusing his title and power. It was repeatedly shown that raveling his identity was risky and could cause severe consequences.

He could've gone into hiding after murder attempt.

Assuming it is a murder and not what everyone believes it is: a disaster brought on by another Targaryen attempt to revive the Dragons. Either way if he survived he still completely abandoned his family and his nation out of fear. That would make him an even worse King than I thought.

[Modesty Lannister]

Although I personally believe that both Egg and Dunk survived the tragedy of Summerhall and I also believe Varys could be a descendent of a Targaryen, the timeline is merciless. Aegon V (Egg) was born in 200AC. If Varys = Egg that would mean Varys was 82 during Robert's Rebellion. That is just not the case. However, he can be a descendent of a Targaryen of that generation.

[The Great Elk]

-Dunk and Egg are dead - possibly murdered and disguised as an accident, possibly not.

-Being a Targ doesn't make you immune to fire.

-Dany and Egg have both displayed the same remarkable resistance to extreme heat, not including the funeral pyre

 

None of these things contradict each other. Also if it was the deaths of Mirri Max Dur, Drogo and Rhaego that payed for the dragons hatching and Danny's survival with blood magic then why didn't the deaths of everyone at Summerhall have the same effect? There's a logical gap there