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What should we expect from the Vale?

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4 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

1. The only reason that Littlefinger took an interest in Sansa is because she looks like Catelyn. I don't have my copy of Game handy, but I believe that he originally met Sansa and Arya while Ned was still alive, but took a liking to Sansa over Arya.  We can quibble on whether it is because she is older, or was more interested in courtly matters, etc, but I think it really boils down to Sansa looking like Catelyn. Ultimately, LF lusted for Catelyn (I wouldn't use love, though I am sure he thinks of it that way).

Littlefinger first met Sansa at the Hand's tournament.  She was there with Septa Mordane.  Neither Ned nor Arya was present.  In fact, I think it was the first time Sansa was out in public without Ned around. 

Sansa is described as resembling Catelyn; Arya looks like Ned.  It is worth noting that the theory that Littlefinger considers Sansa as a Catelyn substitute is a widely held one.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Littlefinger first met Sansa at the Hand's tournament.  She was there with Septa Mordane.  Neither Ned nor Arya was present.  In fact, I think it was the first time Sansa was out in public without Ned around. 

Sansa is described as resembling Catelyn; Arya looks like Ned.  It is worth noting that the theory that Littlefinger considers Sansa as a Catelyn substitute is a widely held one.

I am sorry; I am new to the forum. I did not mean to imply that this was a revolutionary observation. I more wanted to point out that we have to keep these things in mind as we consider how events will unfold. 

 For instance, in regards to this aforementioned observation, it is worth noting that Cat finds Littlefinger clever but not wise. Even though he is pushing for Sansa to seduce and manipulate Harry the Heir, the closer she gets to Harry, the more Littlefinger is going to become agitated and do, perhaps, something reckless. I think the rape of Sansa by him will occur because of this.

I do feel, though, that Sansa is not going to become a hopeless pawn again. Despite this atrocious event that I feel is coming for her, I think she is going to become one of the most astute and savvy political players in Westeros. 

 

Edited by Lady Rhodes

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On 24.4.2018 at 8:03 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

What? Varys murdered Kevan to prevent him from repairing what havoc Cersei had wrought.  In order for Aegon to be the savior of the kingdoms, there has to be a kingdom needing saving. Forgive me if I misunderstood your point or missed a previous comment, but Cersei/Mace did not have Kevan killed.

Of course not. I was talking about the public appearance of those murders. Nobody will blame the eunuch for this and everybody will believe it was done on the command of either Cersei or the Tyrells (and perhaps the Dornish, as Varys points out).

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course not. I was talking about the public appearance of those murders. Nobody will blame the eunuch for this and everybody will believe it was done on the command of either Cersei or the Tyrells (and perhaps the Dornish, as Varys points out).

Ah, ok. Thank you for clarifying!

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On 24.4.2018 at 8:03 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

I think Sansa's learned manipulation and flirtation of Harry the Heir, while plotted and instructed by Littlefinger, will start to drive him mad. I truly believe he is going to rape Sansa, though I think he will think it is consensual.  I also think this will occur before she is able to have sex with anyone else. He brags too much about having taken Lysa and Cat's (or so he thinks) maidenhead, and I feel the same thoughts will preoccupy him with Sansa.

I don't think Littlefinger works that way. He is the one who arranged the Harry thing. He would not have done that if he had been uncomfortable with it - after all, he did ensure she married Tyrion, and he likely expected Tyrion to actually consummate the marriage. If he wanted to be Sansa's first sex partner he would have never helped Tywin to arrange the whole Tyrion thing.

I think there is a good chance that Sansa will seduce Littlefinger. She continues to pretend and internalizes Littlefinger's entire crap about lies - and she has already realized that Littlefinger believes her lies when she shows him affection.

The logical endpoint of that is that they have sex and then Sansa will be in Littlefinger's head. If he has what he wants he'll do everything to keep her happy, and from there Sansa could really gain some control. After all, she might be able to convince him that they have to do X to really ensure that they will have a future together, etc.

On 24.4.2018 at 8:03 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

As far as overall plot arc,  in order for Harry to mean anything, Sweetrobin has to die. If Harry dies first, then we will have to find the next heir, and so on and so forth. I am not saying that Harry doesn't die, but I think he will become Lord of the Vale first.

The point of Harry I still don't understand. We have to wait and see.

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On 8/18/2017 at 2:09 AM, Lord Varys said:

Indeed, nobody would help these two people, and Sansa most certainly would not want to go with this creep. Littlefinger she knows ... this Mad Mouse character she does not know. And quite honestly Sansa becoming another mindless pawn or another character hitting the road for what might be an entire book is not exactly a plot I'd be looking for. And neither would George, most likely. He had Arya hitting the road. And Sansa could have hit the road if she had gone with Sandor.

Well, there must be a reason why we get all those young and valiant knights to the Gates of the Moon for a tourney. A tourney is a social event, and such events can gain a momentum if certain unforeseen and unexpected news arrive suddenly.

The Lords of the Vale were not looking forward to war back during the War of the Five Kings. But there were some houses, like the Royces, pushing to support Robb.

The West has bled considerably and Lord Tywin is dead. The Lannisters are without a strong leader. The Tyrells and the Reach are occupied/distracted due to the Ironborn threat. The Riverlords are preparing to take back what is theirs. And now a Targaryen pretender arrives with the Golden Company to lay claim to the Iron Throne.

They don't have to declare for him outright. They could just assemble a sizable army, and move with their ships from Gulltown across the Bay of Crabs to Crackclaw Point. It is not that far. They could come to the aid of King Tommen or to help seat Prince Aegon on the Iron Throne.

They can now be much more influential in a conflict in a conflict considering that their potential enemies have all been weakened.

If Connington or Aegon sent them a letter to the Gates of the Moon they would have to make a decision. And deciding to sit on their asses again, doing nothing, doesn't sound like something they would do now. That would be cowardice yet again.

Young men like those Waynwoods and all the others that came for the tourney would want to prove their valor in battle, not just some tourney. And Harry sure as hell might want to avenge Jon Arryn to ensure that he is a true Arryn after all.

Littlefinger is not Lysa. He cannot hope to command the Lords of the Vale if push comes to shove. If they want to do something he has to put himself at the top of that movement or risk losing influence and power.

And then there is Sansa herself. If she gets the chance to drive a dagger in Cersei's heart by supporting a pretender who may have the power to destroy her - what would she do? Wait for her to die of old age? Littlefinger told her that they have to lay low and bide their time in the Vale while the Lannisters still rule - now they could have a chance to help topple them and they do ... nothing? That's simply not very likely.

This doesn't mean Sansa-Littlefinger have to form some sort of eternal alliance with Aegon. They could just try (perhaps fail?) to use him for their own ends. But if the new Targaryen king were indebted to the Vale and Sansa-Littlefinger they sure as hell could get Littlefinger confirmed as Lord of Harrenhal, could get Sansa formally installed as Lady of Winterfell, etc. while at the same exerting massive influence in the capital of the Realm.

And from there Sansa could end up in a position where she eventually returns back home, bringing an army with her (or not). But I don't think she is going to go up there while Stannis is still king. And with Davos bringing Rickon back it would get a little bit crowded up there, anyway.

I'm not sure we'll see Littlefinger being killed or executed by Sansa. I really think he is going to have some last meeting with Catelyn and might even destined to see Edmure again. But Sansa might certainly be responsible for a major defeat or loss he is going to suffer, but I actually don't think this is something we should look forward to. Sansa is not unlikely to become a very talented apprentice of Littlefinger's, making her as much a duplicitous person as he is. What this could mean in a 13-year-old girl I'm not sure, but her whole approach to push away/ignore the clearly bad/potentially horrible consequences of her actions (like the death of Lord Robert) seems to be more or less Littlefinger's own way to deal with 'unpleasant things'. I mean, the man must know that a lot of things he does are very wrong, but he has found a way to justify them to himself. And if Sansa ever learned and internalized that lesson she would truly be his daughter after all.

And it is not that this kind of thing is not likely going to help her along the way. Whatever she is going to do, she is likely going to face a lot of dangers, is going to be forced to lie to and betray various people.

Well, if we go with the two book scenario one should expect her to go straight to Winterfell once she leaves the Vale. After all, things would then be heading for the grand finale. But with Aegon having arrived right now and Dany most likely not exactly showing up in Westeros in the next book chances she would basically have to hang out in the Vale for a very long time - doing essentially pretty much nothing there - or she would have to do the same in the North. Sansa is not exactly a character that is likely going to excel in managing a castle in the middle of nowhere. She is the one who is made for court intrigue - especially if she continues her lessons with Littlefinger. And that could work much better in KL - or perhaps even Highgarden or Storm's End - than at Winterfell or in the North. There people should be pretty snowbound and unwilling to travel even while the Wall still stands. All she could do there is to interact with a limited number of people in some castle, writing and receiving letters her only means to find out what's going on outside.

I don't think that would make all that much of a story. Especially since she would have great trouble helping to get assistance from elsewhere up there to fight the Others, etc. if she herself is already up there. Then she would certainly have some men with her but it is not that likely that many men would be willing to join her up there in the middle of winter if the stunningly beautiful and charming Sansa Stark does not try to convince them in person.

If both LF and Sansa are smart; which I believe they are, they will do nothing for now re the north; let Bolton and Stannis forces counter each other out!  Now as for Sansa partaking in Robert Aryn's murder, yes, she could suspect the plot if she "wanted too" (but dark as she may be or ambitious that is too much for her!  Hell, she has nannied the guy at infinitum, for gain mayhaps but still...) I guess but my bet is that she saves his life and it will down on her that marrying Harry means Robert's death.  Still, if Harry gets "wings" she gets time (which is what I think is like to happen).  Besides, she knows where the food is and Tyrion was her husband and commanded the wildlings of the area lol  I expect foul play from Sansa against her enemies but not the Vale at large; she has the ammunition!!!  I think she will save Robin and gain his gratitute via tribes etc...  I think the Mad Mouse works for Varys but not as simply as it appears.  I think Varys wants Sansa/Ty to hold some power and I think he is pretending (even to Kevan to support Aegon) but I think it is just as likely that he truly supports Danny...

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Littlefinger works that way. He is the one who arranged the Harry thing. He would not have done that if he had been uncomfortable with it - after all, he did ensure she married Tyrion, and he likely expected Tyrion to actually consummate the marriage. If he wanted to be Sansa's first sex partner he would have never helped Tywin to arrange the whole Tyrion thing.

I think there is a good chance that Sansa will seduce Littlefinger. She continues to pretend and internalizes Littlefinger's entire crap about lies - and she has already realized that Littlefinger believes her lies when she shows him affection.

The logical endpoint of that is that they have sex and then Sansa will be in Littlefinger's head. If he has what he wants he'll do everything to keep her happy, and from there Sansa could really gain some control. After all, she might be able to convince him that they have to do X to really ensure that they will have a future together, etc.

The point of Harry I still don't understand. We have to wait and see.

Interesting point I hadn’t considered. I will think on that.

My thinking is hinges on the Littlefinger is clever but not wise comment my Catelyn. I think he puts machinations into action, thinking he is confident in how he feels about the consequences, but then reconsiders. I think this has happened at a few points already, one of which being Catelyn dying. Isn’t there a reference at some point that she wasn’t supposed to die but remain a hostage? I think Littlefinger hoped to marry her - though any wise person would realize that Catelyn would doubtfully go into that relationship willingly and even more, would die for her children. 

I do like your idea of Sansa seducing Littlefinger. It would really turn Sansa’s Arc and trope. From eagerly wanting marriage and princes to using sex as a tool. 

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On 4/15/2018 at 6:01 AM, Mooncalf said:

I know this is a forum about the books, but one thing I really liked about the show in season 6 and 7 was that it seemed like Sansa was in position to be the next Dany. Here's someone with many things taken from her, but still prevailing and having people rally behind her. Let's say Martin plugs Sansa in the upcoming book into a role similar to the one Dany was in in the first. This is crazy shot in the dark speculation that won't come close to happening anyway, but fuck it, it's on my mind.

Sansa is an innocent girl who probably cares little for power and just wants a safe life after running from one problem to another like Dany was. She's getting married off to a stranger with no idea what the outcome will be at the whim of someone else (LF). The Vale knights are like the dothraki. Sure, at the end of FFC, LF is talking of knights and lords rallying behind a Stark to conquer her homeland. What if their (and LF) idea of war is not glorious battle, but just sacking poorly defended cities and razing villages of the north while a lot of their inhabitants are off fighting for either Bolton or Stannis. Suddenly Sansa is turned off by this and does not want anymore, no matter what it is for. Maybe Harry falls and the Vale men abandon her. Eventually she'll find out LF has been the cause of everything. all will be lost to her. but, just like Dany at the end of GoT and throughout CoK, through luck and cunning, she gets fighters to rally behind her. Not to destroy kingdoms or reclaim lands, but to fight the Others. I would love to see Sansa become an inspiration or significant hero in the long night to come. Who will rally behind her though? maybe Nymeria recognizes her and leads her army of wolves against the others. Why not?

I agree with you in most part, but I don't see Sansa in books or show as someone without ambition.  Now, to me that is not a criticism but a compliment lol  I would not care much for a sort of Mother Theresa, or good Sansa.  I agree that she has a solid moral compass but, to me, a Sansa without political ambition would kind of defeat the point!  Hence my fav pairing for her is with an equivalent politician lol

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Posted (edited)
On 8/19/2017 at 0:02 AM, Nevets said:

That might be difficult, seeing as how Varys has disappeared and is no longer on the small council.  He could send a message to Cersei instead, or more likely, threaten to do so.  Although I would expect blackmailing Littlefinger to be an excellent way to find yourself in a secret grave.

How about to Dany and the man who Darys rescued for whatever his schemes????

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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