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What should we expect from the Vale?

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4 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

1. The only reason that Littlefinger took an interest in Sansa is because she looks like Catelyn. I don't have my copy of Game handy, but I believe that he originally met Sansa and Arya while Ned was still alive, but took a liking to Sansa over Arya.  We can quibble on whether it is because she is older, or was more interested in courtly matters, etc, but I think it really boils down to Sansa looking like Catelyn. Ultimately, LF lusted for Catelyn (I wouldn't use love, though I am sure he thinks of it that way).

Littlefinger first met Sansa at the Hand's tournament.  She was there with Septa Mordane.  Neither Ned nor Arya was present.  In fact, I think it was the first time Sansa was out in public without Ned around. 

Sansa is described as resembling Catelyn; Arya looks like Ned.  It is worth noting that the theory that Littlefinger considers Sansa as a Catelyn substitute is a widely held one.

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2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Littlefinger first met Sansa at the Hand's tournament.  She was there with Septa Mordane.  Neither Ned nor Arya was present.  In fact, I think it was the first time Sansa was out in public without Ned around. 

Sansa is described as resembling Catelyn; Arya looks like Ned.  It is worth noting that the theory that Littlefinger considers Sansa as a Catelyn substitute is a widely held one.

I am sorry; I am new to the forum. I did not mean to imply that this was a revolutionary observation. I more wanted to point out that we have to keep these things in mind as we consider how events will unfold. 

 For instance, in regards to this aforementioned observation, it is worth noting that Cat finds Littlefinger clever but not wise. Even though he is pushing for Sansa to seduce and manipulate Harry the Heir, the closer she gets to Harry, the more Littlefinger is going to become agitated and do, perhaps, something reckless. I think the rape of Sansa by him will occur because of this.

I do feel, though, that Sansa is not going to become a hopeless pawn again. Despite this atrocious event that I feel is coming for her, I think she is going to become one of the most astute and savvy political players in Westeros. 

 

Edited by Lady Rhodes

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On 24.4.2018 at 8:03 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

What? Varys murdered Kevan to prevent him from repairing what havoc Cersei had wrought.  In order for Aegon to be the savior of the kingdoms, there has to be a kingdom needing saving. Forgive me if I misunderstood your point or missed a previous comment, but Cersei/Mace did not have Kevan killed.

Of course not. I was talking about the public appearance of those murders. Nobody will blame the eunuch for this and everybody will believe it was done on the command of either Cersei or the Tyrells (and perhaps the Dornish, as Varys points out).

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course not. I was talking about the public appearance of those murders. Nobody will blame the eunuch for this and everybody will believe it was done on the command of either Cersei or the Tyrells (and perhaps the Dornish, as Varys points out).

Ah, ok. Thank you for clarifying!

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On 24.4.2018 at 8:03 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

I think Sansa's learned manipulation and flirtation of Harry the Heir, while plotted and instructed by Littlefinger, will start to drive him mad. I truly believe he is going to rape Sansa, though I think he will think it is consensual.  I also think this will occur before she is able to have sex with anyone else. He brags too much about having taken Lysa and Cat's (or so he thinks) maidenhead, and I feel the same thoughts will preoccupy him with Sansa.

I don't think Littlefinger works that way. He is the one who arranged the Harry thing. He would not have done that if he had been uncomfortable with it - after all, he did ensure she married Tyrion, and he likely expected Tyrion to actually consummate the marriage. If he wanted to be Sansa's first sex partner he would have never helped Tywin to arrange the whole Tyrion thing.

I think there is a good chance that Sansa will seduce Littlefinger. She continues to pretend and internalizes Littlefinger's entire crap about lies - and she has already realized that Littlefinger believes her lies when she shows him affection.

The logical endpoint of that is that they have sex and then Sansa will be in Littlefinger's head. If he has what he wants he'll do everything to keep her happy, and from there Sansa could really gain some control. After all, she might be able to convince him that they have to do X to really ensure that they will have a future together, etc.

On 24.4.2018 at 8:03 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

As far as overall plot arc,  in order for Harry to mean anything, Sweetrobin has to die. If Harry dies first, then we will have to find the next heir, and so on and so forth. I am not saying that Harry doesn't die, but I think he will become Lord of the Vale first.

The point of Harry I still don't understand. We have to wait and see.

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On 8/18/2017 at 2:09 AM, Lord Varys said:

Indeed, nobody would help these two people, and Sansa most certainly would not want to go with this creep. Littlefinger she knows ... this Mad Mouse character she does not know. And quite honestly Sansa becoming another mindless pawn or another character hitting the road for what might be an entire book is not exactly a plot I'd be looking for. And neither would George, most likely. He had Arya hitting the road. And Sansa could have hit the road if she had gone with Sandor.

Well, there must be a reason why we get all those young and valiant knights to the Gates of the Moon for a tourney. A tourney is a social event, and such events can gain a momentum if certain unforeseen and unexpected news arrive suddenly.

The Lords of the Vale were not looking forward to war back during the War of the Five Kings. But there were some houses, like the Royces, pushing to support Robb.

The West has bled considerably and Lord Tywin is dead. The Lannisters are without a strong leader. The Tyrells and the Reach are occupied/distracted due to the Ironborn threat. The Riverlords are preparing to take back what is theirs. And now a Targaryen pretender arrives with the Golden Company to lay claim to the Iron Throne.

They don't have to declare for him outright. They could just assemble a sizable army, and move with their ships from Gulltown across the Bay of Crabs to Crackclaw Point. It is not that far. They could come to the aid of King Tommen or to help seat Prince Aegon on the Iron Throne.

They can now be much more influential in a conflict in a conflict considering that their potential enemies have all been weakened.

If Connington or Aegon sent them a letter to the Gates of the Moon they would have to make a decision. And deciding to sit on their asses again, doing nothing, doesn't sound like something they would do now. That would be cowardice yet again.

Young men like those Waynwoods and all the others that came for the tourney would want to prove their valor in battle, not just some tourney. And Harry sure as hell might want to avenge Jon Arryn to ensure that he is a true Arryn after all.

Littlefinger is not Lysa. He cannot hope to command the Lords of the Vale if push comes to shove. If they want to do something he has to put himself at the top of that movement or risk losing influence and power.

And then there is Sansa herself. If she gets the chance to drive a dagger in Cersei's heart by supporting a pretender who may have the power to destroy her - what would she do? Wait for her to die of old age? Littlefinger told her that they have to lay low and bide their time in the Vale while the Lannisters still rule - now they could have a chance to help topple them and they do ... nothing? That's simply not very likely.

This doesn't mean Sansa-Littlefinger have to form some sort of eternal alliance with Aegon. They could just try (perhaps fail?) to use him for their own ends. But if the new Targaryen king were indebted to the Vale and Sansa-Littlefinger they sure as hell could get Littlefinger confirmed as Lord of Harrenhal, could get Sansa formally installed as Lady of Winterfell, etc. while at the same exerting massive influence in the capital of the Realm.

And from there Sansa could end up in a position where she eventually returns back home, bringing an army with her (or not). But I don't think she is going to go up there while Stannis is still king. And with Davos bringing Rickon back it would get a little bit crowded up there, anyway.

I'm not sure we'll see Littlefinger being killed or executed by Sansa. I really think he is going to have some last meeting with Catelyn and might even destined to see Edmure again. But Sansa might certainly be responsible for a major defeat or loss he is going to suffer, but I actually don't think this is something we should look forward to. Sansa is not unlikely to become a very talented apprentice of Littlefinger's, making her as much a duplicitous person as he is. What this could mean in a 13-year-old girl I'm not sure, but her whole approach to push away/ignore the clearly bad/potentially horrible consequences of her actions (like the death of Lord Robert) seems to be more or less Littlefinger's own way to deal with 'unpleasant things'. I mean, the man must know that a lot of things he does are very wrong, but he has found a way to justify them to himself. And if Sansa ever learned and internalized that lesson she would truly be his daughter after all.

And it is not that this kind of thing is not likely going to help her along the way. Whatever she is going to do, she is likely going to face a lot of dangers, is going to be forced to lie to and betray various people.

Well, if we go with the two book scenario one should expect her to go straight to Winterfell once she leaves the Vale. After all, things would then be heading for the grand finale. But with Aegon having arrived right now and Dany most likely not exactly showing up in Westeros in the next book chances she would basically have to hang out in the Vale for a very long time - doing essentially pretty much nothing there - or she would have to do the same in the North. Sansa is not exactly a character that is likely going to excel in managing a castle in the middle of nowhere. She is the one who is made for court intrigue - especially if she continues her lessons with Littlefinger. And that could work much better in KL - or perhaps even Highgarden or Storm's End - than at Winterfell or in the North. There people should be pretty snowbound and unwilling to travel even while the Wall still stands. All she could do there is to interact with a limited number of people in some castle, writing and receiving letters her only means to find out what's going on outside.

I don't think that would make all that much of a story. Especially since she would have great trouble helping to get assistance from elsewhere up there to fight the Others, etc. if she herself is already up there. Then she would certainly have some men with her but it is not that likely that many men would be willing to join her up there in the middle of winter if the stunningly beautiful and charming Sansa Stark does not try to convince them in person.

If both LF and Sansa are smart; which I believe they are, they will do nothing for now re the north; let Bolton and Stannis forces counter each other out!  Now as for Sansa partaking in Robert Aryn's murder, yes, she could suspect the plot if she "wanted too" (but dark as she may be or ambitious that is too much for her!  Hell, she has nannied the guy at infinitum, for gain mayhaps but still...) I guess but my bet is that she saves his life and it will down on her that marrying Harry means Robert's death.  Still, if Harry gets "wings" she gets time (which is what I think is like to happen).  Besides, she knows where the food is and Tyrion was her husband and commanded the wildlings of the area lol  I expect foul play from Sansa against her enemies but not the Vale at large; she has the ammunition!!!  I think she will save Robin and gain his gratitute via tribes etc...  I think the Mad Mouse works for Varys but not as simply as it appears.  I think Varys wants Sansa/Ty to hold some power and I think he is pretending (even to Kevan to support Aegon) but I think it is just as likely that he truly supports Danny...

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Littlefinger works that way. He is the one who arranged the Harry thing. He would not have done that if he had been uncomfortable with it - after all, he did ensure she married Tyrion, and he likely expected Tyrion to actually consummate the marriage. If he wanted to be Sansa's first sex partner he would have never helped Tywin to arrange the whole Tyrion thing.

I think there is a good chance that Sansa will seduce Littlefinger. She continues to pretend and internalizes Littlefinger's entire crap about lies - and she has already realized that Littlefinger believes her lies when she shows him affection.

The logical endpoint of that is that they have sex and then Sansa will be in Littlefinger's head. If he has what he wants he'll do everything to keep her happy, and from there Sansa could really gain some control. After all, she might be able to convince him that they have to do X to really ensure that they will have a future together, etc.

The point of Harry I still don't understand. We have to wait and see.

Interesting point I hadn’t considered. I will think on that.

My thinking is hinges on the Littlefinger is clever but not wise comment my Catelyn. I think he puts machinations into action, thinking he is confident in how he feels about the consequences, but then reconsiders. I think this has happened at a few points already, one of which being Catelyn dying. Isn’t there a reference at some point that she wasn’t supposed to die but remain a hostage? I think Littlefinger hoped to marry her - though any wise person would realize that Catelyn would doubtfully go into that relationship willingly and even more, would die for her children. 

I do like your idea of Sansa seducing Littlefinger. It would really turn Sansa’s Arc and trope. From eagerly wanting marriage and princes to using sex as a tool. 

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On 4/15/2018 at 6:01 AM, Mooncalf said:

I know this is a forum about the books, but one thing I really liked about the show in season 6 and 7 was that it seemed like Sansa was in position to be the next Dany. Here's someone with many things taken from her, but still prevailing and having people rally behind her. Let's say Martin plugs Sansa in the upcoming book into a role similar to the one Dany was in in the first. This is crazy shot in the dark speculation that won't come close to happening anyway, but fuck it, it's on my mind.

Sansa is an innocent girl who probably cares little for power and just wants a safe life after running from one problem to another like Dany was. She's getting married off to a stranger with no idea what the outcome will be at the whim of someone else (LF). The Vale knights are like the dothraki. Sure, at the end of FFC, LF is talking of knights and lords rallying behind a Stark to conquer her homeland. What if their (and LF) idea of war is not glorious battle, but just sacking poorly defended cities and razing villages of the north while a lot of their inhabitants are off fighting for either Bolton or Stannis. Suddenly Sansa is turned off by this and does not want anymore, no matter what it is for. Maybe Harry falls and the Vale men abandon her. Eventually she'll find out LF has been the cause of everything. all will be lost to her. but, just like Dany at the end of GoT and throughout CoK, through luck and cunning, she gets fighters to rally behind her. Not to destroy kingdoms or reclaim lands, but to fight the Others. I would love to see Sansa become an inspiration or significant hero in the long night to come. Who will rally behind her though? maybe Nymeria recognizes her and leads her army of wolves against the others. Why not?

I agree with you in most part, but I don't see Sansa in books or show as someone without ambition.  Now, to me that is not a criticism but a compliment lol  I would not care much for a sort of Mother Theresa, or good Sansa.  I agree that she has a solid moral compass but, to me, a Sansa without political ambition would kind of defeat the point!  Hence my fav pairing for her is with an equivalent politician lol

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On 8/19/2017 at 0:02 AM, Nevets said:

That might be difficult, seeing as how Varys has disappeared and is no longer on the small council.  He could send a message to Cersei instead, or more likely, threaten to do so.  Although I would expect blackmailing Littlefinger to be an excellent way to find yourself in a secret grave.

How about to Dany and the man who Darys rescued for whatever his schemes????

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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I had a recent thought regarding the Vale that I am trying to reconcile with this fairly old discussion. 

Jeyne Poole

She knows that Littlefinger essentially held her captive from the Starks after the Sack of the Tower of the Hand (does it have a better name? that's what I have been calling it) and sold her to the Lannisters and Boltons to be passed off as Arya. What else does she know?  I want to know how much contact she had with Littlefinger in King's Landing, if she knows he left for the Vale, and if she knows he took a certain red-head with him.  If Jeyne knows that Littlefinger has Sansa she could be a pivotal character.  If she tells that information to Stannis or Jon, perhaps a rescue mission of sorts will commence.  If Jon is brought back to life, and is no longer chained by his vows to the Night's Watch, will he avenge his sister?  I don't know what to do with this information, but I think Jeyne may be the key that attaches the North and the Vale and a conflict that is going to brew.

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On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 1:17 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

I had a recent thought regarding the Vale that I am trying to reconcile with this fairly old discussion. 

Jeyne Poole

She knows that Littlefinger essentially held her captive from the Starks after the Sack of the Tower of the Hand (does it have a better name? that's what I have been calling it) and sold her to the Lannisters and Boltons to be passed off as Arya. What else does she know?  I want to know how much contact she had with Littlefinger in King's Landing, if she knows he left for the Vale, and if she knows he took a certain red-head with him.  If Jeyne knows that Littlefinger has Sansa she could be a pivotal character.  If she tells that information to Stannis or Jon, perhaps a rescue mission of sorts will commence.  If Jon is brought back to life, and is no longer chained by his vows to the Night's Watch, will he avenge his sister?  I don't know what to do with this information, but I think Jeyne may be the key that attaches the North and the Vale and a conflict that is going to brew.

All Sansa has to do is just hear about how the recently legitimized bastard Ramsay Bolton married Arya Stark and that Stannis is marching on Winterfell, claiming that the marriage is just as illegitimate as Bolton rule is.

Sansa will naturally be intrigued/horrified (remember, she "knows" that Stannis was telling the truth about Cersei and her kids) and she'll secretly press for more details the wedding (after all, girls like Sansa love weddings) and the state of the marriage only to discover that it was an even bigger sham than her own marriage to Tyrion Lannister. At which point, Sansa will be enraged.

She might even dig a little deeper and find dirt on Littlefinger that not even the readers know.

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Something's going to happen with littlefinger , as he's obviously one of varys little birds, personally I think varys is trying to start a new empire, a reformed empire with no magic, and that certain chosen people will be a part of it once he waits for the downfall of cersei,stannis, and various others in his way

Edited by Deadliestviper7

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5 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

All Sansa has to do is just hear about how the recently legitimized bastard Ramsay Bolton married Arya Stark and that Stannis is marching on Winterfell, claiming that the marriage is just as illegitimate as Bolton rule is.

Sansa will naturally be intrigued/horrified (remember, she "knows" that Stannis was telling the truth about Cersei and her kids) and she'll secretly press for more details the wedding (after all, girls like Sansa love weddings) and the state of the marriage only to discover that it was an even bigger sham than her own marriage to Tyrion Lannister. At which point, Sansa will be enraged.

She might even dig a little deeper and find dirt on Littlefinger that not even the readers know.

What do you mean that Sansa ‘knows’ Stannis was telling the truth? AFAIK she doesn’t?

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8 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

What do you mean that Sansa ‘knows’ Stannis was telling the truth? AFAIK she doesn’t?

Sansa is the type of character who knows stuff without really knowing that she knows stuff.

For example, although she knows that Littlefinger is the responsible for both the War of the Five Kings and the downfall of Lysa Arryn, she doesn't "know" it yet.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Sansa is the type of character who knows stuff without really knowing that she knows stuff.

For example, although she knows that Littlefinger is the responsible for both the War of the Five Kings and the downfall of Lysa Arryn, she doesn't "know" it yet.

Ok but how can she actually know about Cersei’s illegitimate children? She can and will have heard he rumours but that doesn’t mean anything. Is there any indication that she genuinely knows?

eta: I only make the distinction because most everyone has heard the rumours at this point so they really don’t mean anything

Edited by HelenaExMachina

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I think Sansa goes through her own wildling arc in the Vale (parallel: Jon and Tyrion). I think the mountain clans attack the tourney. Similar to the fighting pits where the stage fighting became real when the dragon showed up, I think the tourney will go from chivalrous sports event to a deadly battle very quickly. This event also explores the consequence of Tyrion arming the mountain clans: they're much more deadly and bolder now. 

Then I think she'll be stolen by one of the clan members in the chaos. Most likely Timett, because Shagga is in the wolfswood. This would be her 2nd "marriage" (I think she will have 3). The reason I think it will go this way is because GRRM had Tyrion, Sansa, and Timett together in a scene in ACOK. I think it was specifically for this purpose, so Timett would recognize her later and she'd be able to curry favor with them, as the "half-man's" wife to save herself from rape.

Once she's stolen by the clansmen I think Sweetrobin is the one who will go nuts; he's attached to her at the hip and LF will also send out a search party. I think Shadrich and Harry take this opportunity to join the search party. Once they find her we get some more skirmishes like Cat experienced in AGOT. I think Shadrich will kill Harry and abduct Sansa for himself (this adds tension; she'll think she's saved but she's only out of the frying pan and into the fire like EVERY Sansa scene).  From then I think she'll be looking to escape Shadrich. If he wants to take her to KL for ransom (parallel: like the Hound was trying to do with Arya), it could go several ways. She could follow Ned's footsteps when he raised the banners. Or Shadrich could take her to Gulltown, and she eludes him there. The reason I think she won't want to go back to the Vale is because I think LF assaults her the night before the tourney and after all of these creeps, she's finally ready to be rid of him and the entire Vale itself. It was always her prison anyway.

I also think there is foreshadowing with the silent sisters - they are an order that has been mentioned a lot but we haven't had a POV to witness them from the inside. I think Sansa realizes that she can go North to the Wall, by pretending to join them (parallel: joining a secretive religious order that handles the dead, like Arya). Not only does traveling like this hide her face and she doesn't have to talk, it would also offer her protection. The original outline had a Stark sister arriving at the Wall - I think it is her.

These are just some ideas I've been playing with because I do think her time in the Vale is at an end very early in Winds. She can't learn much more from LF because he's still going to be keeping information from her. There's a threshold to what he can teach her, and if she has to be assaulted to learn anything, then it's not worth it. Thematically she's the princess in the tower who has to come down out of it, eventually.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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