[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[SuperMario]

1 hour ago, That Westeros Dude said:

I believe he is talking about Margaery 

If he was, that is wrong as well. Randall never betrayed Margaery. He was still fighting for the crown, which included the Tyrells and Lannisters when Cersei blew up the sept. Only after she died, did he switch allegiances.

[SuperMario]

Once again, the biggest crap of a plot line is from Winterhell. With everything that has been happening all across the continent including armies and navies moving all over the place, which in theory should take at least a year based on Westeros being the size of South America, what the hell has been going on at Winterfell? Littlefinger is still doing nothing. Jon has been diddling away on Dragonstone even though he has no mining knowledge himself. Maybe Bran has the ability to freeze time because that is the only excuse for why nothing has happened there.

[Jordan La Cabra]

I feel for D&D. These guys are clearly as much fans of this story as any of us are. They wanted to adapt it for the screen, making their own minor adaptations to the story along the way. In fact, while working off source material in the first four seasons, they stuck to the original text very well.

But they didn't sign up to have to write fresh stuff for the damn story, as they have been doing off and on - now completely on - for three seasons. I love reading the ASOIAF series and I also love writing, but I wouldn't fancy GRRM coming up to me and asking me to have a go at writing the rest of the story out for him, based on outline notes he has for the remainder of it.

D&D definitely thought they would be working off GRRM's work right through to the conclusion of the show. He hasn't released a book since before the show began. In a sense, he sold them a dream.

Someone mentioned in a previous post in the forum that they would have preferred if GRRM just gave into the show and decided to help develop it instead of writing the rest of the books. It seemed an extreme view on it, but actually, there is sense in that idea. It seems like GRRM resents D&D for making the changes they have and getting to reveal things before he does, but it also seems like they resent him for not finishing the books and leaving them to work off an outline. But worse than that, it feels like GRRM now resents his own writing because he can't seem to finish it and D&D resent the show because it's turned from an adaptation to an original work, which isn't what they planned. All this has caused GRRM to write even slower and D&D to do the opposite and rush the show to get it over and done with.

In hindsight, the adaptation of ASOIAF shouldn't have happened until the whole series of books had been completed, because, essentially, we are never going to get to see a true adaption on screen of the Winds of Winter and a Dream of Spring, as we have of the previous books in the series.

[iprayiam]

7 hours ago, Epyon said:

I think my biggest rant and rave, is simply the quality of the storytelling is nosediving.

The events of this season alone are like 3 previous seasons worth of content and time skips.... The entire show in general right now feels like, instead of being a long and rich story....  that you're reading a summary chapter of a Cliff Notes version of the events.

Mance was building his army to attack the wall in season 1.... We finally see him attack the wall by the end of Season 4...... Meanwhile Daenarys decides to move her entire army from Dragonstone to somewhere between The Reach or the Crownlands (along the Blackwater Rush) AND BACK AGAIN, within a single half episode.

Stannis decides to go just from Dragonstone to Castle Black, and the journey takes him an entire season....Meanwhile, Davos in this episode goes from Dragonstone, to King's landing, to Dragonstone, to Eastwatch in an single episode, and no character development is apparently happening at all during this time..... Jon has to have been gone for months at this point, and yet Arya and Sansa act like they've only spoken once since Arya returned home... It's just weak storytelling without GRRM writing it, and it really feels more like they're trying to rush and finish for a deadline, rather than give the story the justice it deserves.

This. The pace of the narrative (episode/distance traveled) has gone into overdrive this  season making the whole thing feel rushed. In comparison to an average season 1-3 episode, this whole season is moving at the clip of a "Previously On" segment.

I'll say it again, this could have been completely avoided by pushing certain plot threads back into the insufferably slow seasons 5 and 6. If you cut out Mereen, you could have spent a more believable 2 seasons worth of Dany vs. Westeros, hitting the exact same plot points but at a more believable pace.

Meanwhile in the North, cut out the Battle of the Bastards, and the utterly useless Jon Snow resurrection and the equally worthless KiTN thread. Let Sansa be Lady of Winterfell. Instead Jon could be parlaying with Dany as the Lord Commander. Jon would have had a much more believable timeline getting a wight south if it unfolded over a regular season and you still could have kept the conflicted allegiance drama between Dany and the North. In fact it would have made more sense, since the Night's Watch is supposed to remain neutral.

 

 

[That Westerosi Dude]

35 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Margeary is no more Tarly's real queen then she is Tyrions. Nor did Tarly betray her any more then Tyrion.

Tyrion said she (Cersei) wasn't your queen, until she murdered the rightful queen (Margaery)

[LokisRaider]

Well the good thing about the Tarly's dying is that they closed off the plot hole of Sam stealing his ancestral sword. That's been bugging me as Randyll seems not that concerned about it.

They actually showed Arya's training from her time in Bravos. Learned nothing and being terrible at this whole assassin thing (all the show focused on her training was getting beaten with a stick). Too bad they already showed her killing an entire family and cooking a few of them without getting caught. But I guess Littlefinger is just too smart to outwit by... looking at from 20 feet away around a corner. Hopefully they pull a she knew what he was doing all along and played him, but I doubt it.

Davos and his I thought you'd still be rowing line. Might as well just put a meme on screen. Think about how much more sense it would have made for the story if Gendry did just join the BwB instead of that whole Stannis arc they did with him only to forget about him for 4 seasons. But I guess that goes to the show runners inability to think ahead.

[That Westerosi Dude]

26 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

If he was, that is wrong as well. Randall never betrayed Margaery. He was still fighting for the crown, which included the Tyrells and Lannisters when Cersei blew up the sept. Only after she died, did he switch allegiances.

Tyrion never said he betrayed her, Tyrion said she (Cersei) wasn't your queen, until she murdered the rightful queen, Margaery. 

[PrettyPig]

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

YES!!!!! I laughed so hard when I watched that scene because to me it sounded like someone deflating a balloon. Like when you blow one up and then pull the opening taught as the air escapes.

Either way, both styles are passing wind<<< See what I did there? I worked in the Winds of Winter, which is better than what the writer's can come up with.

Hey, you only do this in front of people you feel totally comfortable with, amirite?  Dragongas = Jon Targaryen - finally, positive proof!

1 hour ago, Balerion the one eared cat said:

My Unsullied friend suggested maybe Baby Sam has some genetic growth disorder from his parents being father and daughter?  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The fact that we even have people resorting to explanations like this to make up for bad writing is both sad and hilarious at the same time.

[Denam_Pavel]

9 minutes ago, That Westeros Dude said:

Tyrion said she (Cersei) wasn't your queen, until she murdered the rightful queen (Margaery)

Cersei has been queen for years. Got the Regency taken from admittedly because of her crimes in the eyes of the Seven. But it was not then given to Margeary, who was likewise under investigation and then died. There was never a point when Margeary was lawfully a higher queen then Cersei in life. That's not a thing, there's only one Regency, one Protector of the Realm and Margeary was a queen that was never any of them unlike Cersei.

[LokisRaider]

On a plus side though it has been 2 episodes with no Euron. Can't argue with that.

[iprayiam]

22 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I feel for D&D. These guys are clearly as much fans of this story as any of us are. They wanted to adapt it for the screen, making their own minor adaptations to the story along the way. In fact, while working off source material in the first four seasons, they stuck to the original text very well.

But they didn't sign up to have to write fresh stuff for the damn story, as they have been doing off and on - now completely on - for three seasons. I love reading the ASOIAF series and I also love writing, but I wouldn't fancy GRRM coming up to me and asking me to have a go at writing the rest of the story out for him, based on outline notes he has for the remainder of it.

D&D definitely thought they would be working off GRRM's work right through to the conclusion of the show. He hasn't released a book since before the show began. In a sense, he sold them a dream.

 

OK, but if you opened a restaurant and hired a head chef, wouldn't you want him to be able to cook in his own right, even if he's mostly going to bake your recipes? 

Somebody who can follow a recipe really well but cannot improvise may be able to make a delicious dinner, but he is not a chef, and should not be in charge of a kitchen.

The same goes for running a TV show. If they are incapable of making quality television without someone else feeding them the recipe, then they should not be show runners. Even if the plan was to mostly follow the recipe.

And we are seeing the reason why play out before us.

[SuperMario]

25 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I feel for D&D. These guys are clearly as much fans of this story as any of us are. They wanted to adapt it for the screen, making their own minor adaptations to the story along the way. In fact, while working off source material in the first four seasons, they stuck to the original text very well.

But they didn't sign up to have to write fresh stuff for the damn story, as they have been doing off and on - now completely on - for three seasons. I love reading the ASOIAF series and I also love writing, but I wouldn't fancy GRRM coming up to me and asking me to have a go at writing the rest of the story out for him, based on outline notes he has for the remainder of it.

D&D definitely thought they would be working off GRRM's work right through to the conclusion of the show. He hasn't released a book since before the show began. In a sense, he sold them a dream.

Someone mentioned in a previous post in the forum that they would have preferred if GRRM just gave into the show and decided to help develop it instead of writing the rest of the books. It seemed an extreme view on it, but actually, there is sense in that idea. It seems like GRRM resents D&D for making the changes they have and getting to reveal things before he does, but it also seems like they resent him for not finishing the books and leaving them to work off an outline. But worse than that, it feels like GRRM now resents his own writing because he can't seem to finish it and D&D resent the show because it's turned from an adaptation to an original work, which isn't what they planned. All this has caused GRRM to write even slower and D&D to do the opposite and rush the show to get it over and done with.

In hindsight, the adaptation of ASOIAF shouldn't have happened until the whole series of books had been completed, because, essentially, we are never going to get to see a true adaption on screen of the Winds of Winter and a Dream of Spring, as we have of the previous books in the series.

I am the last person to defend GRRM and his lack of writing, but you can't blame him for two fanboys wanting to adapt a series that was nowhere close to being done. They knew the gaps between books 3 and 4, and then books 4 and 5. They knew book 4 had to be split into two books and still wasn't even finished. If they were smart enough to guess R+L=J then they should have been smart enough to see the series needs at least 2 more very long ass books. No, if they are upset about anything, it's that they are exposed for the hack writers they are when they don't have source material to fall back on.

[SuperMario]

10 minutes ago, LokisRaider said:

On a plus side though it has been 2 episodes with no Euron. Can't argue with that.

Yeah, he can sail past Dragonstone multiple times and sail around the continent in about a day, yet now he is just hanging out? He must have talked with the Night's King on the tactics of taking a long ass time to get anywhere.

[Jordan La Cabra]

Just now, iprayiam said:

OK, but if you opened a restaurant and hired a head chef, wouldn't you want him to be able to cook in his own right, even if he's mostly going to bake your recipes? 

Somebody who can follow a recipe really well but cannot improvise may be able to make a delicious dinner, but he is not a chef, and should not be in charge of a kitchen.

The same goes for running a TV show. If they are incapable of making quality television without someone else feeding them the recipe, then they should not be show runners. Even if the plan was to mostly follow the recipe.

I don't agree with your analogy.

D&D weren't hired by GRRM to adapt his books for TV, at least not that I know of, for I don't think that is how these things work. It is more likely they or someone from HBO approached GRRM and asked if they could adapt his work, not thinking that the only material they would ever have to adapt from was already available to them.

D&D have written their own stuff outside of GOT, but you have to be a special kind of writer to come up with something like ASOIAF. These guys are probably beyond their limits trying to write three seasons of it themselves with an outline as guidance, especially trying to produce the level of story telling that GRRM can. And I mean that as no insult to D&D. When the dust settles and GRRM finally finishes ASOIAF, it will go down as one of the greatest fantasy series of all time, something of a level that only he and a select few others could ever produce.

Finishing off a story GRRM started with as much quality as he would himself is a task that is definitely beyond the standard of writing D&D can produce. Only GRRM could come up with this story, so only he could finish it. He has left these showrunners in a position that is way out of their depth.

[That Westerosi Dude]

14 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Cersei has been queen for years. Got the Regency taken from admittedly because of her crimes in the eyes of the Seven. But it was not then given to Margeary, who was likewise under investigation and then died. There was never a point when Margeary was lawfully a higher queen then Cersei in life. That's not a thing, there's only one Regency, one Protector of the Realm and Margeary was a queen that was never any of them unlike Cersei.

I never said Margeary was a queen like Cersei, neither did Tyrion.

Margeary was still a queen that Cersei killed. That is what Tyrion is talking about "you follow a queen that murdered your rightful queen" as she was married to Tommen, yes she was the rightful queen.

[Jordan La Cabra]

7 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

I am the last person to defend GRRM and his lack of writing, but you can't blame him for two fanboys wanting to adapt a series that was nowhere close to being done. They knew the gaps between books 3 and 4, and then books 4 and 5. They knew book 4 had to be split into two books and still wasn't even finished. If they were smart enough to guess R+L=J then they should have been smart enough to see the series needs at least 2 more very long ass books. No, if they are upset about anything, it's that they are exposed for the hack writers they are when they don't have source material to fall back on.

GRRM said WoW would be finished by the end of 2015. It wasn't. We are in 2017 and most of don't even think we will see WoW in 2018. I really can't imagine that he didn't give them assurances (as he has done to the fans) that he would have at least another book out by this point.

[SuperMario]

5 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

GRRM said WoW would be finished by the end of 2015. It wasn't. We are in 2017 and most of don't even think we will see WoW in 2018. I really can't imagine that he didn't give them assurances (as he has done to the fans) that he would have at least another book out by this point.

I agree, but my point was that like in the story, when it comes to GRRM, Words are Wind. He has been inaccurate about his predictions for years. In 2005 when AFFC was published, he said ADWD would be out the next year. That is many years before the Ds wanted to adapt the series. I understand that GRRM may have given them false hope, but they had to have known there was a chance the story would not have been completed. Plus, they started to deviate from the story back in season 4 before really falling off the rails in season 5. Season 5 was 2015. If they thought book 6 was out later that year, they were changing and writing their own material well before they ran out of book material.

[Denam_Pavel]

14 minutes ago, That Westeros Dude said:

I never said Margeary was a queen like Cersei, neither did Tyrion.

Margeary was still a queen that Cersei killed. That is what Tyrion is talking about "you follow a queen that murdered your rightful queen" as she was married to Tommen, yes she was the rightful queen.

I know you never said. I'm saying it. Cersei and Margeary are both queens, rightful queens of the Seven Kingdoms as long you believe Tommen is heir to Robert Baratheon by Cersei Baratheon who has legit rulership of the Seven Kingdoms by right of conquest. You can naysay the right of conquest or claim Tommen is a bastard or being charged with treason by the High Septon strips them of their privileges and have a point but that all discredits them both. There is absolutely no version of this where Margeary was the rightful queen of Randyl Tarly but Cersei wasn't. And of those two queens only Cersei was given right to autonomous rule until Tommen came of age at any point. Tyrion is full of ****.

[That Westerosi Dude]

2 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

I know you never said. I'm saying it. Cersei and Margeary are both queens, rightful queens of the Seven Kingdoms as long you believe Tommen is heir to Robert Baratheon by Cersei Baratheon who has legit rulership of the Seven Kingdoms by right of conquest. You can naysay the right of conquest or claim Tommen is a bastard or being charged with treason by the High Septon strips them of their privileges and have a point but that all discredits them both. There is absolutely no version of this where Margeary was the rightful queen of Randyl Tarly but Cersei wasn't. And of those two queens only Cersei was given right to autonomous rule until Tommen came of age at any point. Tyrion is full of ****.

When Margaery married Tommen, Cersei was no longer queen of anything. When Margaery died she was the rightful queen of Westeros. Cersei blew her up. Therefore "you follow a queen who killed your rightful queen" is correct. 

[Jordan La Cabra]

5 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

I agree, but my point was that like in the story, when it comes to GRRM, Words are Wind. He has been inaccurate about his predictions for years. In 2005 when AFFC was published, he said ADWD would be out the next year. That is many years before the Ds wanted to adapt the series. I understand that GRRM may have given them false hope, but they had to have known there was a chance the story would not have been completed. Plus, they started to deviate from the story back in season 4 before really falling off the rails in season 5. Season 5 was 2015. If they thought book 6 was out later that year, they were changing and writing their own material well before they ran out of book material.

Yeah, he does have history when it comes to not meeting his on deadlines, which I am sure the Ds knew of. But I am curious as to why there seems to have been a bit of a breakdown between the two parties. He hasn't written an episode since season four. Presumably he wanted to take a backseat to get on with the writing of Winds. I wonder how much the two parties are working together on the rest of the TV series.

Is he feeding them a lot of his knowledge about what is happening and they're ignoring it, or is he giving them a brief outline and leaving them to their own devices? It seems most like to be the latter. GRRM had less reason to write screenplays for the an episode in each of the first four seasons, as they already had his books to work off. Since season five, when they ran out and really started to drift from the books, if he and the Ds were truly working together, would it not have made more sense for him to be writing an episode, maybe more, a season?

I suppose we will never know and can only speculate, but I believe that would have massively improved the story.