[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[LokisRaider]

1 minute ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

Yes!! This is why I have been saying like a broken record... any highschool fan fiction writer that cared about making something plausible in respect to fans and the work or Martin could have done a better job. The writers of the show are certainly very capable people, but the fact that amateurs can imagine better executions of storylines in 5 minutes, just tells me that it is sloppiness and lazyness (i.e. I already got my money, made this series a sucess.. let me focus now in my future projects.... )

I think that there is the problem. You could find someone to write a better fan fiction that respects the fans of the series. But this show is written to please the fans of the show. For example my friends that watch the show only have no idea who many of the characters names even are. Thoros, Beric, the Tarly's, seriously if brought up in a discussion you have to tell them. "Oh the guy with the fire sword" or "the grumpy general" they'll say. They do not care about details and neither do the writers. This whole season has been getting 9's and 10's from the reviews I've read and my only thought is "How? Do any of you reviewers even or have ever watched the show?". They know if they show some tits and a dragon then say cunt fuck every other scene idiots will lap that crap up and say it's the best show on TV. Nope it WAS the best show on TV when they followed the books and had GRRM helping, but it was ruined when they started writing things to fit the modern day TV audience.

[King Louis II (KLII)]

1 minute ago, LokisRaider said:

I think that there is the problem. You could find someone to write a better fan fiction that respects the fans of the series. But this show is written to please the fans of the show. For example my friends that watch the show only have no idea who many of the characters names even are. Thoros, Beric, the Tarly's, seriously if brought up in a discussion you have to tell them. "Oh the guy with the fire sword" or "the grumpy general" they'll say. They do not care about details and neither do the writers. This whole season has been getting 9's and 10's from the reviews I've read and my only thought is "How? Do any of you reviewers even or have ever watched the show?". They know if they show some tits and a dragon then say cunt fuck every other scene idiots will lap that crap up and say it's the best show on TV. Nope it WAS the best show on TV when they followed the books and had GRRM helping, but it was ruined when they started writing things to fit the modern day TV audience.

Yep that's the modus operandi of series today , you start with very elaborated, carefully crafted first seasons  (remember LOST? or DEXTER) and after you get your money and sucess finish the last seasons in anyway that you want... you already have a vested audience... it is a con.

[That Westerosi Dude]

31 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

I remember. I argued against this idea as well because it doesn't make sense. Margeary did not have a claim to be the "rightful" queen over Cersei by virtue of marrying Tommen and the show itself established this in conversation between Margeary and Cersei. 

In the warped show logic, Olenna rules the Reach all by herself and it invents terms like a hereditary "Wardeness of the North" position. Cersei and Olenna were both ruling on the grounds of being mothers and wifes of dead people without any hope of this continuing the bloodline in anyway at the time that Tarly made his choice so I felt it plausible Tyrion was referring to Tarly's loyalty to the Reach first in a hamfisted way.

SHE WAS MARRIED TO THE KING, THEREFORE THE QUEEN. Holy hell. 

[SerProle]

4 hours ago, Ser Didymus said:

the only thing that saddens me more than the show's poor quality is listening to podcasts and reading reviews of "journalists" who still fawn over every little moment the show gives us.  this self-referential nonsense, hearkening back to a time when the show was actually good, serves only to remind me why i hate the show.  it's becoming LOST.  The show-runners cannibalizing their own canon because they haven't had a good idea since they thought to themselves, "hey, maybe i should read this book , A Game of Thrones"

I don't feel sad, I feel contempt. But not surprise. The entertainment industry is built on the Emperor Has No Clothes, especially now that social media and the internet has made it infinitely easier to game the system and preserve money making illusions. I used to work in the industry and that sort of manipulation was once more difficult. As bad as D&D may be at writing a good story, they certainly know how to do the money making important stuff when it comes to their show, the hype machine is very successful.

When I read a lot of the comments on reddit, especially just after the episode airs, it becomes almost blatant that this is an organized effort to build hype. The quick glowing reviews and responses are so canned and prepared. I guess the russian bot factories have several side projects lol. And unless a poster has lots of karma, its nothing but masochism to post anything show critical for several days, if then, because its nothing but a guarantee of downvotes. At least here, when you read the positive reviews of the show you do get the sense that it is actual people writing their own opinions. IMDB ratings are a joke, even if they mattered, and if popularity equals quality, then porn is the greatest human achievement in history. Paid journalism is now endangered, way too easy to 'buy' good coverage, none of the elite so-called arts critics has any credibility any more imho. The youtube crowd depends on shrinking ad revenue, they will provide whatever message the ADHD crowd wants for a few minutes and avoid offending too many subscribers.

What gets me especially this season is just how poor the craft of the show is. I've been watching 'lesser' shows, like TURN, Killjoys, Fargo, Orphan Black, and some of the Netflix series, and they are just so much better put together. The Last Kingdom is so much more fun to watch than GoT. The characters in all of these shows really seem to inhabit their world, there is plenty of tension and kinetic energy. All of these shows have flaws, but all are lots of fun to actually watch. GoT this season is mostly the same people in costumes standing around or slowly walking in the same dull places over and over again, in a lot of darkness, spouting their terrible lines. It all feels so claustrophobic, not epic at all.

Its crap tv. The time of awesome cinematography and amazing locations is over except for a few moments each episode. Or bizarre, like KL somehow being next to the Wild West. The epic battle never felt full of consequence, just an opportunity to watch people burn. Nobody really thought Drogon or Dany or Jaime or Bronn would actually be hurt. Not for a moment. Its all just a tedious if sometimes flashy plod towards some finish line. The way they are doing it they might as well finish it all off in one episode with ten minutes of expensive mayhem and 50 minutes of dull talking in a dark room where the plotlines are 'explained' by one of the cartoon characters (Gilly reveals all). If I wasn't hosting viewings, I'd finally stop watching the show.

Next episode should at least be fun to watch, the whole nonsensical wight hunt lol. I really liked the Hound, Beric and Thoros scene in the first episode, but it has been so downhill since then, and I imagine some of these characters will die because removing extra characters is the point, nothing more. Contrived and cheap, I won't feel moved, just annoyed.

[King Louis II (KLII)]

by the way, there are at least two kinds of GoT Fans: 1- Fans that really care about the details, the storytelling and everythting that made GoT special (book readers and non-book readers). These fans are the ones that are vocal about their passion and attracted the second type of fans 2- Fans that like GoT as much as any action series or movie...  The second category (which can be divided and many other ones)  are only numerous because cat 1. Without the "base" (cat 1) GoT would have the same audience as Carnivale or Deadwood...

[Illiterati]

2 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

by the way, there are at least two kinds of GoT Fans: 1- Fans that really care about the details, the storytelling and everythting that made GoT special (book readers and non-book readers). These fans are the ones that are vocal about their passion and attracted the second type of fans 2- Fans that like GoT as much as any action series or movie...  The second category (which can be divided and many other ones)  are only numerous because cat 1. Without the "base" (cat 1) GoT would have the same audience as Carnivale or Deadwood...

Carnivale was fantastic, I would have liked to see them bring it to completion.

[King Louis II (KLII)]

Just now, Illiterati said:

Carnivale was fantastic, I would have liked to see them bring it to completion.

I really liked too.... better than LOST i.m.o.

[Rhymes with Sneak]

49 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

It would be less absurd than Cersei not killing Tyrion when she knew that he was meeting with Jaime

I wondered about that, but I figure the explanation would be that Cersei/Qyburn found out about the meeting in real time.  Jaime was being followed by one of Qyburn's birds, the spy saw them meet, rushed to report to Qyburn, who rushed to Cersei with the news (that was what he was doing there when Jaime came in).  That at least makes it possible the meeting happened without a chance for Qyburn/Cersei to try to capture Tyrion.   

[Ser Didymus]

23 minutes ago, SerProle said:

I don't feel sad, I feel contempt. But not surprise. The entertainment industry is built on the Emperor Has No Clothes, especially now that social media and the internet has made it infinitely easier to game the system and preserve money making illusions. I used to work in the industry and that sort of manipulation was once more difficult. As bad as D&D may be at writing a good story, they certainly know how to do the money making important stuff when it comes to their show, the hype machine is very successful.

When I read a lot of the comments on reddit, especially just after the episode airs, it becomes almost blatant that this is an organized effort to build hype. The quick glowing reviews and responses are so canned and prepared. I guess the russian bot factories have several side projects lol. And unless a poster has lots of karma, its nothing but masochism to post anything show critical for several days, if then, because its nothing but a guarantee of downvotes. At least here, when you read the positive reviews of the show you do get the sense that it is actual people writing their own opinions. IMDB ratings are a joke, even if they mattered, and if popularity equals quality, then porn is the greatest human achievement in history. Paid journalism is now endangered, way too easy to 'buy' good coverage, none of the elite so-called arts critics has any credibility any more imho. The youtube crowd depends on shrinking ad revenue, they will provide whatever message the ADHD crowd wants for a few minutes and avoid offending too many subscribers.

What gets me especially this season is just how poor the craft of the show is. I've been watching 'lesser' shows, like TURN, Killjoys, Fargo, Orphan Black, and some of the Netflix series, and they are just so much better put together. The Last Kingdom is so much more fun to watch than GoT. The characters in all of these shows really seem to inhabit their world, there is plenty of tension and kinetic energy. All of these shows have flaws, but all are lots of fun to actually watch. GoT this season is mostly the same people in costumes standing around or slowly walking in the same dull places over and over again, in a lot of darkness, spouting their terrible lines. It all feels so claustrophobic, not epic at all.

Its crap tv. The time of awesome cinematography and amazing locations is over except for a few moments each episode. Or bizarre, like KL somehow being next to the Wild West. The epic battle never felt full of consequence, just an opportunity to watch people burn. Nobody really thought Drogon or Dany or Jaime or Bronn would actually be hurt. Not for a moment. Its all just a tedious if sometimes flashy plod towards some finish line. The way they are doing it they might as well finish it all off in one episode with ten minutes of expensive mayhem and 50 minutes of dull talking in a dark room where the plotlines are 'explained' by one of the cartoon characters (Gilly reveals all). If I wasn't hosting viewings, I'd finally stop watching the show.

Next episode should at least be fun to watch, the whole nonsensical wight hunt lol. I really liked the Hound, Beric and Thoros scene in the first episode, but it has been so downhill since then, and I imagine some of these characters will die because removing extra characters is the point, nothing more. Contrived and cheap, I won't feel moved, just annoyed.

it's also hilarious to me that immediately following the episode, we get the two clowns holding our hands as they explain what these scenes actually mean.  the show is so poorly constructed at this point that the showrunners need to tell us what to think after they already showed us exactly what they wanted to show us, and it still isn't enough to make any of it matter to the viewer.

where we disagree is in the technical achievements of the show.  it is beautiful.  almost every shot is expertly crafted (in terms of visuals only).  despite the wooden acting of the two main characters of the show, i think GoT is best consumed on mute.  once the showrunners' script is in play, things begin to fall apart.  example: as nonsensical as the Jaime cliff-hanger was; and as stupid as it was that he and Bronn popped up downstream without a care in the world about being seen/captured, there was an element of beauty to the shot of Jaime sitting on the water's edge, shoulders slumped as he gazed across the water and across the battlefield, with smoke slowly rising against the setting sun.

 

 

[Zorral]

38 minutes ago, That Westeros Dude said:

SHE WAS MARRIED TO THE KING, THEREFORE THE QUEEN. Holy hell. 

Dowager queen takes second place to the queen of the currently ruling king. Or, in the case of Elizabeth II, the currently ruling queen (Philip not king, but consort).

But mothers of kings have served as successful regents many times in history,  supposedly giving up power when their sons come of age.

But, soetimes they don't want to. Louix XIV's mother, Anne of Austria. was deeply ambitious for power. She ruled the country, with Cardinal Mazarin as chief minister, which continued until Mazarin's death. At that point, Louis asserted himself against his elderly mother and assumed the power of the crown to himself.

[Houndbird]

Please GRRM finish TWOW soon.   We need to see what theeal story is.  not this rubbish.   

 

 

[Armand Gargalen]

50 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Okay, but when it comes to stuff like this, does it really matter that their magic river ride was unrealistic?

What matter is what happens the characters. Would you rather Jaime died? More people would moan about his death because that's a big plot point, than some easy ride D&D made to save him.

I don't get why people get so caught up on these 'unrealistic' moments. It happens in all tv shows, all movies, all books, all pieces of fiction. They aren't that important.

Every writer ever has done saved a character that really should have died. It doesn't make D&D any worse than anyone else, it just makes them the same as everyone else.

You may be right. But GOT used to be above average,precisely because stuff like this did not happen and people paid for their mistakes. 

[Ser Didymus]

27 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Carnivale was fantastic, I would have liked to see them bring it to completion.

the cancelling of Carnivale after only two seasons was heartbreaking.  I don't want to spoil anything for those who haven't watched it yet, but i thought that show was expertly crafted.  the mythology, the cast of characters, the cinematography... so well done.

[Cas Stark]

Count me among those still mourning for Carnivale.

As far as the show's lack of logic, almost all such entertainment is going to have some things that are far fetched or too coincindental.  GOT problem is that instead of this happening every so often, it now happens at least once an episode.  Giant armies ALWAYS materialize hundreds of miles away without having been detected.  They only rhyme or reason as far as what characters know and when they know it, is the plot.  And characters routinely fail to discuss the most basic things...like not one Stark having mentioned Rickon?!  And this was after Sansa and Jon both knew and then forgot that Bran was alive.  The show relies now almost exclusively on 'yadda, yadda' to smooth over it's giant plot holes.

[StepStark]

1 hour ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

Yes!! This is why I have been saying like a broken record... any highschool fan fiction writer that cared about making something plausible in respect to fans and the work or Martin could have done a better job. The writers of the show are certainly very capable people, but the fact that amateurs can imagine better executions of storylines in 5 minutes, just tells me that it is sloppiness and lazyness (i.e. I already got my money, made this series a sucess.. let me focus now in my future projects.... )

Please watch again the death of Amory Lorch in season two and then think about how capable D&D really are. And the same for that Qarth nonsense in the same season. And for all the other stupidities from earlier seasons. Just watch again the scene where Robert's away hunting and Ned is on the Iron Throne receiving reports about Gregor's crimes in the Riverlands, and pay close attention to Littlefinger's lines in that scene - not in a million years can something like that pass for a competent writing. And not to mention the infamous sexposition scene with Ros and that other prositute, also from season one. The truth is that D&D were never better, they were always as incompetent as they are now, but people were easily distracted back then with scenes that were more faithful to the books. And yes, even school kids could write better than D&D, but not because D&D don't care any more, but because they couldn't write competently even if their lives depend on it.

[darmody]

9 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

My biggest petpeeve is Tyrion telling Tarly that he betrayed their real queen. The Tyrells were never their kings or queens, not before, during or after the Targaryans and the Baratheons had their time in the sun. And even if they did, Olenna isn't a Tyrell.

I don't know what you're referring to. Tyrion mentioned that Cersei murdered Tarly's rightful queen, which was Marge. She was a a Baratheon at the time, through marriage, so you're correct that the Tyrells were never kings or queens. 

Oleanna certainly was a Tyrell, through marriage. She was in fact matriarch of House Tyrell.

[El Guapo]

Has anyone mentioned the fact that unlike all the commanders on Westeros, Tormund actually had scouts that picked up Beric, Thoros and the Hound prior to them making it to Eastwatch.

[darmody]

5 hours ago, SuperMario said:

If he was, that is wrong as well. Randall never betrayed Margaery. He was still fighting for the crown, which included the Tyrells and Lannisters when Cersei blew up the sept. Only after she died, did he switch allegiances.

When did Tyrion say Randall betrayed his queen? I don't remember that happening. 

[King Louis II (KLII)]

14 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

You may be right. But GOT used to be above average,precisely because stuff like this did not happen and people paid for their mistakes. 

Exactly. Why GoT is different. What was the novelty and why it had so much success?

1- Nobody is safe. Any character can die (no plot armors).

2- A solid mythology and attention for details

3- Medieval times as real as it can be. No BS.

4- Magic and Fantasy that are made in a way that they don't make all the difference. A Dragon is almost like if a medieval army had also a Spitfire plane.  Basically a soldier in WW2 may have though a Tank was something almost supernatural when they saw it for the first time.

D&D are now forgeting each one of these points...(perhaps not the 4... yet).

[ramla]

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Okay, but when it comes to stuff like this, does it really matter that their magic river ride was unrealistic?

What matter is what happens the characters. Would you rather Jaime died? More people would moan about his death because that's a big plot point, than some easy ride D&D made to save him.

I don't get why people get so caught up on these 'unrealistic' moments. It happens in all tv shows, all movies, all books, all pieces of fiction. They aren't that important.

Every writer ever has done saved a character that really should have died. It doesn't make D&D any worse than anyone else, it just makes them the same as everyone else.

In Writing, film or book, Unrealistic moments are almost always explained in a realistic way. And good writing takes its universe into account. Like in Westeros, Castles matter... A hell of a lot. So having so many unoccupied castles is out of character and unrealistic. Thats poor writing and it breaks immersion. Casterly Rock is the house of Lannister... You know Hear me roar and all that. They would never abandon it. Especially not knowing about Tyrion's secret entrance. Its said to be impregnable.

In the Westeros, universe, The Faith had the vast support of the people of Kingslanding. So when its openly known, Cersei the brotherfukker did it, its unrealistic for the people to ever cheer for her. Ever support her. With everything she's done, the Tarly's should not have ever raised swords against house Tyrell in Cersei's name. Ever. It would have been moe realistic if, they showed, Cersei held the city by fear and force. Show, Soldiers terrorizing the small folks and stuff. 

Realism is what making a story good. Even one with Dragons and witches. The universe must be consistent.