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[Poll] How would you rate episode 705?

How would you rate episode 705?  

267 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best?

    • 1
      16
    • 2
      13
    • 3
      15
    • 4
      17
    • 5
      20
    • 6
      26
    • 7
      44
    • 8
      61
    • 9
      33
    • 10
      22


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5 hours ago, WCPhan said:

This seemed like one of those episodes in a series where they have to create the setting for whats next but also to reintroduce all the old characters who will play parts in the next few episodes of this season.

Tormund, Davos, and Jon just had some of my favorite lines of the series.

"Which Queen? The one that rides dragons or the one that fucks her brother?"  

I think that line was the only time I smiled in the entire episode.

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3 minutes ago, Arya_Stormborn said:

I think that line was the only time I smiled in the entire episode.

It was a classic!!!! That's why Tormund is my new favorite character

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On 8/13/2017 at 10:17 PM, LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger said:

I'm curious as to how many show only people picked up on how big of a reveal that was.  I'm the only person I know who reads GoT or watches the show.  I loved it because I'm a big fan that Jon is legit, but I honestly don't know if it blunt enough for people not well steeped in R+L

The fact that Lyanna's name is not mentioned in that scene would make it considerably more difficult for show only people who haven't kept up with all the theories floating around out there.  One of my friends is like that.  She can't even remember everyone's names, after 6 seasons!  None of my friends are into as much as I am, but it is a family affair in my house.  My husband, 2 sons and daughter-in-law and I all get together and watch it, starting with previous week episode. I cook dinner and even make dessert to enjoy while we watch!  And then discuss after.  No addicts here, nuh uh.  ^_^

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I cried at this episode for the first time in the whole series, when Dany and Jorah were reunited.  I thought that was extremely emotional.  Emilia Clarke is much better at displaying tenderness than being a bad ass, IMHO.  I so wish she would fall in love with him, but no way is that happening.

What I liked - A lot of great quips in this one, as noted in another thread;  Davos finding Gendry; fermented shrimp LOL!; Tyrion pouring out his heart to Jaime - a lifetime of pain conveyed in just a couple of sentences; Jon reminding Dany he is a king; Sam barely able to contain his frustration with the Maesters and then his outburst to Gilly about 17K+ shits and her calm response, hilarious!; Jon petting Drogon!; Sansa demonstrating her grasp of leadership and politics contrasted to Arya's solution of cutting off heads; LF's ploy to drive a wedge between the sisters'; Clegane telling Baeric to shut the F up; Tormund LOL as aways!; Varys' recollection of how he reconciled himself to the actions of the Mad King and both Tyrion and Varys' apparent realization that Dany is heading down the wrong path; Bronn telling Jaime he's on his own with the dragons - so typical Bronn.

What I didn't like - capturing a wight - OMG!  STUPID, STUPID, STUPID, esp w/out the help of a dragon; roasting the Tarlys; Randyll's character in general; Jaime swam all the across the river in armor - seriously?; Jaime's lack of sympathy for Tyrion and failure to tell him he knows Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey; Tyrion thinking Cersei can be reasoned with, even through Jaime; Dany allowing Jorah to leave - is she not aware she needs a proper military commander?; and did I mention capturing a wight - STUPID!!!!

Overall I am really loving this season too.  I don't have a system for rating episodes like some people do, except maybe how fast the episodes go by (what? No way that was an hour!)  I don't think I rated any of them below an 8, and this week a 9.  I have really enjoyed all the reunions and the development of new relationships.  For every really stupid thing that has happened there have been 2 really awesome things.  And don't get me wrong, I love a good battle, but I don't want the show to be one battle after another.  I would have been very put out if the battles in E03 had been shown in any great depth.  I enjoy the character and plot development much better (probably why I love reading), and unfortunately in some people's opinions, that requires more dialogue.

Speaking of developing relationships, does anyone else think Davos took more than a casual, friendly interest in Missandei?

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12 hours ago, Kenton Stark said:

I know some people want to be smug and be negative about everything, but really?

So fire breathing dragons, Ice demons that create and control zombies,  a fire god that allows his servants to raise people from the dead are all good, but everything else ( like the TV series only showing you  relevant character interaction not the boring time it takes the to travel) is so unrealistic if bothers you?!?

or when someone says "Character X would never say that or Character Z would never do that"/ They are fictional characters and do and say exactly what the creators of the fictional medium decide what they should do or say

relax and enjoy the show or don't watch it, that type of negativity is bad for you

Fire breathing Dragons and Ice Demons are part of the fabric of this world. If they did something out of character we would call them up on it.

That doesn't mean that a fantasy world cannot have logic and realism in how they act. In fact that is precisely why so many love GRRM's work.

I have defended this show numerous times in the past, many of the criticisms of it have been nitpicking of things that did make sense, but you couldn't show all the steps due to the medium. This episode made me very angry, I still voted it a 7 due to the quality of many of the individual scenes, but this idea to capture a wight to "convince Cersei" is by far the most stupid thing they have ever done.

Firstly, why do they need to convince Cersei of anything?, she has a few thousand fighting men left plus a glorified city watch and is Queen of one city. Secondly the person arguing for this knows very well that Cersei cannot be convinced of anything beyond the need to maintain her own power. 

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9 hours ago, StepStark said:

I never thought of it that way but it's so true! It really makes me less mad at myself for spending this much time on these boards. Sometimes I think that arguing for years about GOT is almost like a course in writing.

:agree:

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16 hours ago, Gargarax said:

and as I teach literature and occasionally film, discussing the show's flaws makes me better at my job. I even use scenes as examples of how not to tell something

Woah, that's great, could you share us some examples what are those model scenes you use? I guess no-one needs an in-depth knowledge to name what many of the poorly written scenes are, but I find it pretty interesting which ones (to raise the stakes a bit, which ones happening out of Dorne plot ;) ) are THE worst according to a professional :D

Edited by kirt

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32 minutes ago, kirt said:

Woah, that's great, could you share us some examples what are those model scenes you use? I guess no-one needs an in-depth knowledge to name what many of the poorly written scenes are, but I find it pretty interesting which ones (to raise the stakes a bit, which ones happening out of Dorne plot ;) ) are THE worst according to a professional :D

Okay, I'm not a professional, and saying which Dorne scene is the worst is difficult, because those scenes are bad for many reasons. My main issue there really is that we don't know what motivates these characters, why they do what they do (torturing the captain that brought Jamie to Dorne, for example).

I think the most interesting thing is to analyse how effective the main plot points are, particularly compared to the effective plot points in ealier seasons and the book. A really effective plot point for me does three things: 1) it is as surprising as possible, 2) it is, at the same time, a very logical, if not the most logical, consequence of plot development before that plot point, and 3) it changes the direction of the plot as much as possible for as many characters as possible.

Ned's death is a good example for a great plot point: It came as a big surprise, it shouldn't have come as a big surprise since we know Joffrey, and it changed the course of the plot for pretty much every major character. The same is true for other major plot points in the early seasons (Jamie pushing Bran, Red Wedding, Dracarys) as well as minor ones (Jon being sent to the Stewards, Bran's assassin, Joffrey bitten by Nymeria).

Since seasons 5, many plot points only fullfill one or two of the criteria. When Ramsay rapes Sansa, this changes everything for her (though this traumatic event is never really explored further), but doesn't come as a surprise and at the same time is not the logical consquence of the plot before. "Hold the door" was a surprise, but came out of nowhere and had no consequences for the plot (it wasn't even a real plot point). Jon's death came as a surprise of you ignore the terrible foreshadowing, but was far less the logical consequence as it is in the books, and remained almost without consequence, apart from the technicality that he is now freed from his vows.

You could also look at the way the scenes are filmed. "Dracarys" back in season 3 was an extremely well filmed scene. I often use this to show how the vertical position of the camera (frog- to bird-perspective) helps to show the shift in power relations between characters. In that scene, the camera does a great job at helping to tell the story. There may be scenes in the more recent seasons where this is done well, too (I haven't been paying very close attention), but my impression is that scenes are filmed in a much more lazy fashion.

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Wow, atrociously corny and contrived writing. I would say that this show has officially jumped the shark, however that moment has long since passed. With this episode, d&d have officially jumped the Megalodon. 

As with many past episodes, I feel like this deserves a negative rating, however, having absolutely no expectations of seeing a quality program coming in, and feeling generous: 

+1 for the CGI; essentially a point for the budget, nothing to do with the show runners.

+1 for Davos' retort to Tyrion when coming ashore KL.

Tyrion: "Last time I was here I killed my father."

Davos: "Last time I was here, you killed my son with wildfire."

First time I was genuinely amused by a line in GoT in a long time. Gotta love that Davos.

2/10

...and I'm shocked with myself that I rated it this high.

Edited by Darkstream

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Thanks Gargarax, very informative point of view :) I'm wondering - while obviously early seasons had good scenes and bad scenes as well, are there any scenes so bad in early seasons that you are giving them as example of how not to do storytelling? Or is really the distinction of early and late seasons so clear-cut?

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I can't quite decide whether to give it 3/10 or 2/10

Characters seem to do things and say things simply for the benefit of the audience now. Nothing is grown organically or told in an interesting way.

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On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 3:48 PM, Gargarax said:

Forgive me, but I don't think you understand much about storytelling or fiction if you make statements like that. A good story is above all a plausible story, which means that characters act, react and speak plausibly. Realism within a work of fiction means that what happens must follow all laws at work in this fictional world. Of course the author can make character say anything, but every character is a construct that builds up in the mind of the reader/viewer, and whatever the do or say next has to fit tat construct.

Critical viewers are not smug, they simply have other expectations than you have. Expectation as to how the passing of time is handled (nobody wants to see travelling, but there are many other ways to suggest Eastwatch is not a hour's travel from Dragonstone).

Apply your argument to another topic and you'll see how silly it is: Does it make sense to say that everybody who doesn't like Trump's politics should just shut up, that you can either agree with him or say nothing at all? Stupid, right, for the same reason it's stupid here. If people like something, there will and should be a discourse around why they like it, and if the disklike it, there should be a discourse there as well.

Being critical of the show is not at all bad for me, it's actually the opposite. There is no other show that has taught me more what poor storytelling is than Game of Thrones, and as I teach literature and occasionally film, discussing the show's flaws makes me better at my job. I even use scenes as examples of how not to tell something (though I also use some good scenes as positive examples).

I have no problems with people who like this show - good on you! Live and let live. Doing the opposite - making angry comments about people who's opinion differs from your own – seems pretty immature to me and contributes to the bad atmosphere in these threads so much more than the often well-explained criticism of the show.

I respect your opinion. My statement was directed more towards negative people in general. Again, if someone doesn't like Trump's policies they should voice their opinion because its real world stuff that impacts real people.

This is  fictional show. I wasn't angry when I made my post. Just stating my opinion. If the show was as bad as some people consistently rate it , the show wouldn't be so popular. However, if I came across as attacking an individual, rather than a general negative mind set, that was not my intention. You've certainly given me something to think about, especially how my comments could be perceived.

Good storytelling is successful storytelling. The show is incredibly successful. They are accomplishing their goal. Different opinions are great. . An individual may disagree with the way its being done, they may have several ideas about improving it, but this is successful storytelling.

 

Edited by Kenton Stark

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54 minutes ago, Kenton Stark said:

Good storytelling is successful storytelling. The show is incredibly successful.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you there. Sure, the show is successful, but that is not indicative of good story telling. 

Do you honestly think the show would be as popular as it is if they had a substantial smaller budget to work with? Would as many people tune in if there were no CGI dragons or battle scenes? If they didn't have amazingly elaborate sets, and beautiful locals to film their story at?

A large majority of viewers tune in for the spectacle that is GoT, not because of the quality story.  Would you say that movies like the Transformers are telling a good story, or programs like Jersey shore and the Kardashiawhatevers? All very popular and successful programs.

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3 hours ago, Kenton Stark said:

Good storytelling is successful storytelling. The show is incredibly successful. They are accomplishing their goal. Different opinions are great. . An individual may disagree with the way its being done, they may have several ideas about improving it, but this is successful storytelling.

Can you really not name one successful thing that you don't like?

Popularity doesn't necessarily equate to quality.

GoT broke through a wall surrounding public consciousness - I would argue on the strength and hooks of the first three books - into the realm of cultural phenomenon, a place where everybody tunes in because nobody wants to miss out when everyone else is talking about it. As a result, most people don't care about the storytelling. They care about the talking points. This is why GoT gets away with such nonsensical and slapdash storytelling. The majority of viewers don't give a shit as long as there's something to talk about and they're blinded to its flaws due to its position in the realm of cultural phenomenon.

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I gave it an 8. It was my least favorite episode of the season, but I still enjoyed it. My most glaring criticism was the fast pacing. I thought that the pacing of this season was very good until this episode. Too many important plot points happened in a very short span of time. 

I see that people still take these numbers way too seriously. It's all good fun. Everyone has there own ranking system, and they're all valid. As I've always said, quality is subjective. I don't understand why people get so offended just because someone's opinion differentiates from their own.

Edited by Dragon in the North

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23 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

I cried at this episode for the first time in the whole series, when Dany and Jorah were reunited.  I thought that was extremely emotional.  Emilia Clarke is much better at displaying tenderness than being a bad ass, IMHO.  I so wish she would fall in love with him, but no way is that happening.

 

Last year I cried in their goodbye scene but this year I couldn't because Jon was watching them, and Jorah had to notice the "Jonerys love" that apparently was in the air. He destroyed the moment, although it still was moving. There was a moment when they are leavig with the boat, and Jorah turns back, that was also touching.

This year I've only cried with one scene, Meera's goodbye and I suppose I won't cry in a while because I already know what happens.

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What I liked:

-Bran doing the hard work: flying with his ravens to discover where the WWs are. A-MA-ZING:10/10

-Gendry's reappearance: 10/10

-Davos and Gendry: 8/10

-Gendry befriending Jon and not wanting to hide who he is: 8/10

-Sam defending Brandon Stark in the Citadel: 8/10

-Sam looking at the library he loved while leaving: 8/10

-Sam being tired of reading what others do (although I'd have preferred him to stay longer as well?): 7/10

-Jorah returning to his Queen. Seven seasons of a story together: 8/10

-Jorah turning back when he is leaving: 8/10

-Jaime telling Cersei they are losing: 6/10

What I didn't like

- The wight hunt idea:lmao::lmao::lmao:-100/10

-Stupid Jaime and Cersei's relationship and even more infuriating pregnancies out of nowhere: -50/10

-Tyrion being stupid in front of the KG's: 3/10

-Jonerys "epic" love story: 1/10

-PromQueen Games in WF: 3/10

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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7 hours ago, Kenton Stark said:

I respect your opinion. My statement was directed more towards negative people in general. Again, if someone doesn't like Trump's policies they should voice their opinion because its real world stuff that impacts real people.

This is  fictional show. I wasn't angry when I made my post. Just stating my opinion. If the show was as bad as some people consistently rate it , the show wouldn't be so popular. However, if I came across as attacking an individual, rather than a general negative mind set, that was not my intention. You've certainly given me something to think about, especially how my comments could be perceived.

Good storytelling is successful storytelling. The show is incredibly successful. They are accomplishing their goal. Different opinions are great. . An individual may disagree with the way its being done, they may have several ideas about improving it, but this is successful storytelling.

 

Thanks for your answer! I agree with you up to a point - though there are masterpieces in film and literature that will never find a big audience, and there are commercially successful blockbusters (Transformers comes to mind) that are shit in almost every regard. But I guess it's true that something that is very successful and liked by many must do something well. I always like a food analogy to explain my problem: millions of people buy Big Macs and like eating them, myself included, but by no culinary standard is this "good food" ;)

I think with GoT that's not the story though, but the spectacle. It has dragons and battles, that are well done for a TV-show, and while "Hardhome" left me cold emotionally, I admit I quite enjoyed the action, the setting and the atmosphere. If the show was truly boring, I wouldn't be watching it still. I criticise it because I think it could be so much the better show if the writers cared for their characters as much as they do for the penis jokes and the spectacle. They have such a huge budget, some really talented actors and a great fictional world to tell their story in - this shows on the screen, and this I think you really can enjoy - just why, why don't they invest a bit more in the scripts.

Again, I'm understand that many people really love the show and are not bothered by what bothers me - that's fine with me. I kind of got back at you (maybe a bit too harshly, sorry) because in these threads we who give a critical rating sometimes get irrationally angry reactions, which I find deplorable. I like reading different opinions, because they give me something to think about.

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