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[Poll] How would you rate episode 705?

How would you rate episode 705?  

268 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best?

    • 1
      16
    • 2
      13
    • 3
      15
    • 4
      17
    • 5
      21
    • 6
      26
    • 7
      44
    • 8
      61
    • 9
      33
    • 10
      22


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10 hours ago, kirt said:

Thanks Gargarax, very informative point of view :) I'm wondering - while obviously early seasons had good scenes and bad scenes as well, are there any scenes so bad in early seasons that you are giving them as example of how not to do storytelling? Or is really the distinction of early and late seasons so clear-cut?

I'm not sure which episode it was exactly, but I think "Walk of Punishment" in S3, where you could very clearly tell which scenes were adaptations of book scenes and which were made up by the writers. I think we watched this one and simply asked with every scene: What does this scene do for plot, character, atmosphere or theme? If it doesn't do anything for any of them, the chances are high that it's pure fan service. There were several such scenes even in season 3, though I admit there were some I enjoyed.

My personal favourite of how not to do it are pretty much all Oly reaction shots in S5. I have never seen such clumsy foreshadowing, which has to be subtle to be successful. This might be the direction, though, and not the writing. The show is terrible at reaction shots in general, which I think shows that directors can't tell what the characters are supposed to feel in a scene. But I guess their scripts have little character info anyway.

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43 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Last year I cried in their goodbye scene but this year I couldn't because Jon was watching them, and Jorah had to notice the "Jonerys love" that apparently was in the air. He destroyed the moment, although it still was moving. There was a moment when they are leavig with the boat, and Jorah turns back, that was also touching.

This year I've only cried with one scene, Meera's goodbye and I suppose I won't cry in a while because I already know what happens.

I wasn't looking at anyone else but Dany and Jorah.  And especially Dany.  The affection and happiness in her eyes looked so genuine I might have believed they were lovers in real life!  But also deeply touching was the way Dany looked at Jon when he said he was going north, and when Jorah and Dany said goodbye, and like you said, when he turned and looked back.

Meera's goodbye definitely pulled on my heartstrings.  I am normally an easy crier (it's really pathetic actually) but for some reason not with GoT.  I think maybe it's because my empathy is constantly being undermined by my hatred for certain characters or their actions.

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25 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

I wasn't looking at anyone else but Dany and Jorah.  And especially Dany.  The affection and happiness in her eyes looked so genuine I might have believed they were lovers in real life!  But also deeply touching was the way Dany looked at Jon when he said he was going north, and when Jorah and Dany said goodbye, and like you said, when he turned and looked back.

Meera's goodbye definitely pulled on my heartstrings.  I am normally an easy crier (it's really pathetic actually) but for some reason not with GoT.  I think maybe it's because my empathy is constantly being undermined by my hatred for certain characters or their actions.

I like everytime Dany and Jorah meet and say goodbye, it's so emotional.

Poor Meera, Ellie did a great job there

Yeah, I have the same problem. It's difficult for me to display emotions once I have seen scenes that I dislike or characters acting out of character (which is a very commmon thing nowadays). Maybe that's another reason I could not get emotional enough with the reunion scene of J-D, and also because it was actually one of the ·"easiest" ones they have done. Their last goodbye was bittersweet, when they met in the arena was in a moment of threat and it was very well directed..... One of the few changes I like from GOT is how they changed the character of Jorah, and having started watching the show before reading the books made me like them from the start, although at first I didn't like Jorah as much as I did later.

Ellie's performance was so great that I managed to cry even with those circumstaces of the show (last seasons). And I'm also an easy crier, but I used to cry more in the earlier seasons (many Bran's scenes, RW,Ygritte's death...). Few exceptins from laters seasons, HOld the Door episode, because the scene was so long that  I could manage to submerge in it easily.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I like everytime Dany and Jorah meet and say goodbye, it's so emotional.

Poor Meera, Ellie did a great job there

Yeah, I have the same problem. It's difficult for me to display emotions once I have seen scenes that I dislike or characters acting out of character (which is a very commmon thing nowadays). Maybe that's another reason I could not get emotional enough with the reunion scene of J-D, and also because it was actually one of the ·"easiest" ones they have done. Their last goodbye was bittersweet, when they met in the arena was in a moment of threat and it was very well directed..... One of the few changes I like from GOT is how they changed the character of Jorah, and having started watching the show before reading the books made me like them from the start, although at first I didn't like Jorah as much as I did later.

Ellie's performance was so great that I managed to cry even with those circumstaces of the show (last seasons). And I'm also an easy crier, but I used to cry more in the earlier seasons (many Bran's scenes, RW,Ygritte's death...). Few exceptins from laters seasons, HOld the Door episode, because the scene was so long that  I could manage to submerge in it easily.

I'm really glad the show Jorah is not like the book Jorah.  Book Jorah is extremely unlikeable. I also started watching the show first. 

I cried when Ygritte died, and when Marcella died.  That scene was so especially poignant.  Jaime finally gets to reveal to Marcella that he is her father, she's fine with it and for about 2 glorious minutes he gets to know the joy of openly being a father.  It was a cruel twist of fate for Jaime.  I was too shocked and outraged at the red wedding to cry, but my heart broke for Arya seeing Wind's head on her brother's body.  That after seeing her father beheaded.  Little wonder Arya is so jaded.

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Voted 7 fairly average.

I sometimes wonder tough when people give GoT a 2 or something like that. Have you seen any actually god awfull stories?

If anyone has read the final chapters of the manga bleach now that was a story rushed to death. There are some godawful reality televison shows  out there that deserve 2 or 1. GOT easily outclasses those. Are you looking me in the eye and say the quality drop is worse in GOT than supernatural (wich isn't evne the worst one out there).

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7 hours ago, Gargarax said:

I'm not sure which episode it was exactly, but I think "Walk (...)

Thanks! :)

Edited by kirt

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26 minutes ago, earth127 said:

I sometimes wonder tough when people give GoT a 2 or something like that. Have you seen any actually god awfull stories?

If anyone has read the final chapters of the manga bleach now that was a story rushed to death. There are some godawful reality televison shows  out there that deserve 2 or 1. GOT easily outclasses those. Are you looking me in the eye and say the quality drop is worse in GOT than supernatural (wich isn't evne the worst one out there).

You are assuming that everyones rating is (or should be) in comparison to other TV shows. Which is not the case.

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9 hours ago, Gargarax said:

Thanks for your answer! I agree with you up to a point - though there are masterpieces in film and literature that will never find a big audience, and there are commercially successful blockbusters (Transformers comes to mind) that are shit in almost every regard. But I guess it's true that something that is very successful and liked by many must do something well. I always like a food analogy to explain my problem: millions of people buy Big Macs and like eating them, myself included, but by no culinary standard is this "good food" ;)

I think with GoT that's not the story though, but the spectacle. It has dragons and battles, that are well done for a TV-show, and while "Hardhome" left me cold emotionally, I admit I quite enjoyed the action, the setting and the atmosphere. If the show was truly boring, I wouldn't be watching it still. I criticise it because I think it could be so much the better show if the writers cared for their characters as much as they do for the penis jokes and the spectacle. They have such a huge budget, some really talented actors and a great fictional world to tell their story in - this shows on the screen, and this I think you really can enjoy - just why, why don't they invest a bit more in the scripts.

Again, I'm understand that many people really love the show and are not bothered by what bothers me - that's fine with me. I kind of got back at you (maybe a bit too harshly, sorry) because in these threads we who give a critical rating sometimes get irrationally angry reactions, which I find deplorable. I like reading different opinions, because they give me something to think about.

That is a very well thought out and intelligent post. What you said is very reasonable. The Big Mac analogy was great. In my mind the show could do certain things better. My pet peeve is the lack of Direwolves importance. But I guess I'm comparing it to what else is available on TV, not to what I think it could be.

I can't think of anything else on TV that comes close to entertaining me or making me want an episode to last longer than GOT does.

Based on your criteria if I understand it correctly, I have a better understanding of why you might give it a negative rating. I can totally respect that.

 My ratings are comparing it against other available and similar mediums. So in my rating system (there have been very few shows in the history of television that compare to the top three episodes of any GOT season IMHO) I'm basically comparing it to other shows and their individual episodes that I would rather watch. Does that make sense?

No worries about getting back at me on your response. I don't think you said anything out of line. Besides, I'm old, thick skinned and battle harden. 

17 hours ago, Darkstream said:

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you there. Sure, the show is successful, but that is not indicative of good story telling. 

Do you honestly think the show would be as popular as it is if they had a substantial smaller budget to work with? Would as many people tune in if there were no CGI dragons or battle scenes? If they didn't have amazingly elaborate sets, and beautiful locals to film their story at?

A large majority of viewers tune in for the spectacle that is GoT, not because of the quality story.  Would you say that movies like the Transformers are telling a good story, or programs like Jersey shore and the Kardashiawhatevers? All very popular and successful programs.

You make some good points. Just curious, what other shows would you say are much better than GOT? Again, I'm comparing apples to apples. The show will never be as good as the books. I'll agree, I wish the show was closer to the books and could definitely be improved. But as I stated above, I can't remember ever looking forward to watching a TV show as much as GOT and that's really my measuring stick.

 

13 hours ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Can you really not name one successful thing that you don't like?

Popularity doesn't necessarily equate to quality.

GoT broke through a wall surrounding public consciousness - I would argue on the strength and hooks of the first three books - into the realm of cultural phenomenon, a place where everybody tunes in because nobody wants to miss out when everyone else is talking about it. As a result, most people don't care about the storytelling. They care about the talking points. This is why GoT gets away with such nonsensical and slapdash storytelling. The majority of viewers don't give a shit as long as there's something to talk about and they're blinded to its flaws due to its position in the realm of cultural phenomenon.

you are correct Popularity does not necessarily equate to quality. Yes the show could be better. But again, I can't remember ever anticipating, enjoying and looking forward to the next episode of any other show as much as I do GOT. I compare it with other show, not with what it could be.  If I compared it to what it could be, then yes I would rate it lower.

If you compare the greatest QB of all time to what he could have been versus other QBs then he will be rated lower. But compared to all other QBs he was a 10/10.

The greatest baseball hitters of all time( Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Willie Mayes, Hank Aaron, Jeter, etc)  would be less than a 4/10 because they failed to be as good as they could have been more than 60% of the time. No hitter ever averaged .400 for his career. But compared to all other baseball players in history those guys are a 10/10.

 

 

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8 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

I'm really glad the show Jorah is not like the book Jorah.  Book Jorah is extremely unlikeable. I also started watching the show first. 

I cried when Ygritte died, and when Marcella died.  That scene was so especially poignant.  Jaime finally gets to reveal to Marcella that he is her father, she's fine with it and for about 2 glorious minutes he gets to know the joy of openly being a father.  It was a cruel twist of fate for Jaime.  I was too shocked and outraged at the red wedding to cry, but my heart broke for Arya seeing Wind's head on her brother's body.  That after seeing her father beheaded.  Little wonder Arya is so jaded.

Oh yes, I was referring to that moment of Grey WInd!  

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5 hours ago, Kenton Stark said:

You make some good points. Just curious, what other shows would you say are much better than GOT?

Well, I'd be the wrong person to ask that question, as I'm not one to watch much television, and haven't seen many of the programs that would be comparable to GoT.

The only reason I started watching this show was because of my passion for the source material, and the excitement and curiosity of seeing one of my favorite stories of all time being adapted to a visual medium. Contrary to what I expected, the show runners did an excellent job in the first couple of seasons, and I considered GoT to be substantially better than any other shows on television. Were there issues with the show, and decisions they made that I didn't like? Sure, but they were understandable considering the medium, and not nearly as prevalent as they are now. So, if I were to use any show in comparison when rating the episodes from this season, it would be to that of Got in the first few seasons. While my ratings for the first 20-30 episodes would have varied from probably 6-9, and possibly one or two 10s, using that as a standard, I cannot justify giving any episodes from the past three seasons a rating any higher than a 1-2, with maybe the odd 3 in there.

5 hours ago, Kenton Stark said:

But as I stated above, I can't remember ever looking forward to watching a TV show as much as GOT and that's really my measuring stick.

See, and that is what I was like during the first three seasons. I couldn't wait for Sunday night, and was filled with excitement and anticipation, even though I already knew what was going to happen. Now, I don't know what is going to happen, but lack the desire and  motivation to sit down for a full hour to watch the show. So, for me, using that as a measuring stick, I cannot justify giving this show a passing grade.

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2 hours ago, Darkstream said:

So, if I were to use any show in comparison when rating the episodes from this season, it would be to that of Got in the first few seasons. While my ratings for the first 20-30 episodes would have varied from probably 6-9, and possibly one or two 10s, using that as a standard, I cannot justify giving any episodes from the past three seasons a rating any higher than a 1-2, with maybe the odd 3 in there.

This, very much so.

Although I do think the odd episode since S4 can get as high as a 6 (7 is perhaps arguable in the cases of Hardhome and The Spoils of War). My average rating since then is probably in the region of 4/10.

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13 hours ago, Kenton Stark said:

Just curious, what other shows would you say are much better than GOT?

4 seasons of Black Sails, a prequel to the book of Treasure Island. Starts off cliche-like and seemingly disjointed, but the further you get into the story and then do a rewatch the better those prior seasons become. Best TV show since euhm decades. Outdid Rome for me. Oh and they establish timeline and how long it takes to travel from here to there, and meticulously use that established journey time whenever they do a time jump, even in one epsiode. Only show that managed to make me mourn a character for days. Just couldn't stop crying. And no fan service or fan catering. Just sticking to the consequences of a character's past choices, no matter how harsh, no matter how loved a character is by fans. And several women in their cast you end up rooting or respecting or admiring, no matter what awful things they did (as much as the men). You love and you hate the characters. They're all villains. But by the end of S2 you realize you've pump-fisted or rooted for all of them at some point in the story.

You may know 2 actors in Black Sails from the GOT cast: the actor Luke Robert who played Arthur Dayne is part of the cast for 2 seasons as governor Woodes who went down in history as the man who ended the Golden Age of piracy, and Tom Hopper who played Dickon Tarly is part of the cast for 4 seasons as Billy Bones (the fictional captain who was once part of Captain Flint's crew and has the treasure map at the start of the book). But you've got Ray Stevenson as Edward Teach (Blackbeard), a stellar Toby Stephens as Flint, discovery Luke Arnolds as Long John Silver (superb character transformation).

And the writers wrapped it all up in 4 seasons at their own pace. They could have done a season more by Starz, but the story was told. And they leave in some mistery, not giving you the answers on every betrayal or save, leaving it to you to decide which character betrayed whom or how a character managed to survive (or not). Re-watch rewards you with the clues. Also puts a fresh spin on the jounrey that made the Treasure Island characters what and who they are, sort of making them unreliable narrators in Treasure Island.  

Just talking about it, makes me want to put the DVD back on and do a re-watch. I will not though while GOT season 7 is not yet finished, because it hurts to make the comparison at present and is a constant reminder how bad GOT has become in storytelling. If I'd re-watch Black Sails now, I wouldn't give ANY episode of GOT more than 1/10.

Edited by sweetsunray

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15 hours ago, Kenton Stark said:

Just curious, what other shows would you say are much better than GOT?

Of the current ones, The Last Kingdom is obviously and easily better. It has some pacing problems (I think that more episodes are needed per season), but the writing, dialogue and acting is superior to GOT.

Fargo season 1 was a revelation. I never liked the movie so I was skeptical at first, but it captured me from the start. But I didn't like the second season and I'm still to watch the third one (seasons are not really related).

True Detective season 1 was everyone's favorite and for a good reason. Nobody liked season 2, also for a good reason. Seasons aren't connected in any way, so you can watch season 1 and enjoy it, it's a complete story.

The Missing is a pretty interesting drama, it's an English mystery series with Tcheky Karyo as the lead in both seasons. Not always but they usually manage to avoid cliches. Characters and the dialogue are just great in a very non-pretentious way.

Of the past shows, Sopranos is a must-see. If you ask me, it is the best thing on TV in history. Some people prefer Breaking Bad or The Wire, but I don't agree with that at all. Still, both Breaking Bad and The Wire are very good and easily better than GOT, so I recommend both. Battlestar Galactica was love-hate thing for me, but all in all, even with all its faults, it's still much better than GOT. Even the silliest moments from Galactica are much less nonsensical than GOT's lowest.

But here's a funny story. I didn't watch Sopranos on their original run, so when David Benioff said that GOT is going to be "Sopranos in Middle Earth", I didn't have an idea what he was talking about. But, because at that point I already read ASOIAF (except ADWD, which was still not out), what he said made me interested in Sopranos. All the hype about Sopranos back in their original run didn't make me interested in it, but this little comparison to ASOIAF did, because I was already in love with ASOIAF. And then I watched Sopranos and was instantly fascinated, and yes I saw some similarities with ASOIAF (brutal, dark, family values, father issues, mother issues, hypocrisy of the society), and I became double hyped for GOT. So it was a huge let-down for me from the beginning, even the first episode was disappointment, with that cheesy blue-eyed girl and with stupidly sexualized dialogue like when Tyrion and Sandor are discussing brothels, and especially with Dany's wedding night that was turned into rape for some reason. Even in its best days (or, more precise, its least bad days), GOT simply doesn't belong to the same universe as ASOIAF or Sopranos. So for me it's not about comparing GOT to other silly shows, which I don't watch anyway. but about comparing it to shows like Sopranos which were supposed to be inspiration to D&D (by their own words). And in that comparison GOT comes embarrassingly bad.

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4 hours ago, StepStark said:

Fargo season 1 was a revelation. I never liked the movie so I was skeptical at first, but it captured me from the start. But I didn't like the second season and I'm still to watch the third one (seasons are not really related).

Intriguing. I loved the movie and loved Season 2 of the series. S2 I felt was the best thing I've seen since Breaking Bad ended. I had major issues with both S1 and S3 of Fargo, although I did enjoy both overall.

For the record, I'm inclined towards The Wire as the best TV series I've ever seen.

Deadwood is IMO up there alongside The Sopranos, The Wire and BB. The only thing arguably against that is the fact it remains unfinished.

I agree with you that at its best GoT was never on that level but GRRM's groundwork gave it the hooks, characters and story to gather followers. I remember watching S1 of GoT and thinking that I must read the book.

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Shows this year (TV year goes from Sept-Sept) which are better than GoT this year.

Legion, Westworld, Fargo (RIP?), Luke Cage (that may have been last season, I watched it this year), Better Call Saul, American Horror Story, Scream Queens (RIP), GLOW, Mystery Science Theater 3000, Blood Drive, Powerless (RIP)

Obviously, any question like that is opinion, and I think ratings like 0-2 are too harsh, also, as the show continues to do a few things very well.

Production value, general strong acting (after the two leads), spectacle

  However, those people are just looking for other things (which the show doesn't do well at this point).

Writing, character development, subversion of norms within genre

 

My favorite GoT podcaster often describes the show as going from Sopranos in a fantasy setting to a Michael Bay movie.  I this is a perfect description of the show's arc.  That sounds harsh, but Michael Bay movies makes lots of money, so clearly a ton of people really like them.  There is nothing wrong with Michael Bay movies.  They aren't just what everyone is looking for, and there is going to backlash as the show has many fans who loved it's earlier version.

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Given a 3. Very bad episode. Nonsensical, uninteresnting, rushed. No drama, no real devolopment of situations. What's happening at The Twins or the Reach, the Vale, Dorne? Noone knows, the story has become a role game with only the big guys as characters. The plan of taking a wight beyond the Wall is stupid, the purpose of that plan (convincing Cersei who has no army and no force to add) is silly.

Really, really terrible. At this point, the show is becoming a huge disaster.

Edited by grey_scale

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I give it 9. Some unexpected events took place like "Jon is not a bastard" and "Lannisters have future". And I waited for Jorah and Dany's reunion. Though I start to dislike Arya. She became cunning in a dark sort of way. Like that Faceless girl the Waif.

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On 2017. 08. 16. at 9:58 PM, Kenton Stark said:

Good storytelling is successful storytelling. The show is incredibly successful. They are accomplishing their goal. Different opinions are great. . An individual may disagree with the way its being done, they may have several ideas about improving it, but this is successful storytelling.

 

The show is succesful despite the storytelling of seasons 5-7 and not because of it.

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Ep. 5: While watching, I thought this would be an 8; then thinking about the wight business, I was inclined to drop to a 6; so I guess I`ll compromise with another 7.

OK, the scne after the battle was pretty cool. I do think Dany might have dwelt a little more on *positive* reasons to support her, other than 'I can kill you'. She does briefly allude to the wheel; but how about 'Cersei blew up the Great Sept', not to harp on that. How about 'Abolished slavery'?

Dragonstone: I was right about Jorah getting back to Dragonstone in an episode or two, not that that took any brilliant deductive powers, and not that I minded, either. Very nice reunion scene. Nice Jon/Dany/Drogon scene.

The wight plan I find rather stupid. Why do they need to convince Cersei? There are two sensible ways of dealing with Cersei: 1. Get rid of her, perhaps with a surgical dracarys, perhaps with an assassin, and while you`re at it, also off Qyburn, Frankengrgor, and Show!Jaime (the last is now fully complicit in Cersei's crimes); 2. Just ignore her, defeat the Undead, and then clean up Westeros afterwards.

Winterfell: Some decent stuff here: Bran trying to warn about the undead; Sansa defending Jon; conflict between Sansa and Arya, though I hope they get reconciled eventually, but Arya *should* bbe scarred by becoming a murderer as a pre-teen. LF is finally doing something besides be creepy.

I'm not sure why Davos stepped aside to pick up Gendry (needed something to do?); but I like Gendry and I`m glad he`s back, even if in a stupid-ish plotline.

The Citadel: Gods help us. Maester Sue, apparently annoyed by the maesters`perfectly reasonable questions, randomly decides to leave, randomly stealing some random books with him. This is getting to be a bad habit. If you have Sam over for the night, you`d best put anything valuable in a safe, and chain all your furniture to the floor. Although he`ll probably find a way to lift something anyway. I did find the Rhaegar bit interesting-ish, though.

So, all in all, it was a fun watch. One just had to shut down one's brain sometimes.

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