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Jcat

A Wight for Cersei? Seriously?

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Ignoring that fact that the plan is crazy because they can never trust Cersei I don't understand why they need to go north of the wall and get a wigt from the army of wigts. Everything previous seems to imply that if anyone for a long time now dies north of the wall or even nearby they will just turn into one, hence the need to always burn all the dead. So is there really no one in the north right now about to die of natural causes, someone willing to take one for the team, or some traitor or prisoner to execute that can just die and become their pet wigt???? Am I wrong? Like how is this not obvious.

The only reason I can come up with is the show needed a reason for an exciting scene interacting with knight king and dead army because otherwise I see literally no reason for this plan. 

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18 minutes ago, Iotun said:

By the way, having just re-watched the episode, one minor thing that also bugged me is how the army of the dead is apparently a short raven's fly away from the wall - and yet following multiple journey's up and down Westeros, they'll still not manage to arrive at the Wall.

 

The time in the shows isn't sequential.  For example something you're seeing in Ep2 may correlate in a linear fashion to an event from Ep5.  The books are the same.

The biggest weakness in both show and books is the way the rest of the realm treats the arrival of the Others and how long it has taken for the Others threat to really materialise on the Wall.  The main cause of this issue was the urgency of the Wildlings to escape combined with the Others attack on the NW at the Fist of the First Men, followed by what was meant to be a five year gap.  So basically the Others were meant to sit around twiddling their thumbs for at least 5 years.

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1 minute ago, nymeria_2321 said:

Ignoring that fact that the plan is crazy because they can never trust Cersei I don't understand why they need to go north of the wall and get a wigt from the army of wigts. Everything previous seems to imply that if anyone for a long time now dies north of the wall or even nearby they will just turn into one, hence the need to always burn all the dead. So is there really no one in the north right now about to die of natural causes, someone willing to take one for the team, or some traitor or prisoner to execute that can just die and become their pet wigt???? Am I wrong? Like how is this not obvious.

The only reason I can come up with is the show needed a reason for an exciting scene interacting with knight king and dead army because otherwise I see literally no reason for this plan. 

I don't think the dead automatically rise.

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9 hours ago, xander_blackfyre said:

Here is the thing this has had a theme of learning from past mistakes and I think that it it Tyrion's turn to do so.  When Tyrion meets with Jamie in the dungeons of the Red Keep he says that Jamie has been 3 steps ahead of him the whole time he knows his sister almost as well as anyone else.  Do you think that he trusts her at all, he knows he has to be thinking 3 steps ahead of them he knows what kind of person his sister is.  He knows Cersei really only listens to one person and it is not Jamie that is Cersei and he already knows the lengths she will go to get what she wants and she wants he and Dany dead.  We already get the sense that Cersei is planning a red wedding type ambush at this meeting because she says that she needs to think like her father, Tyrion knows that a plan like this is not beyond Cersei so I am thinking he is already thinking of something to counter this.

The plan is not really to convince Cersei she is beyond reason, the plan is to convince someone with reason, Jamie.

The idea of a RW-esque massacre that Cersei would surely botch is very interesting.  It could allow for the CleganeBowl (Sandor vs. Gregor) that fans have wanted for years, provide the incentive for Jaime to take her out, and be a shock to the SmartCersei they have created in the show.

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8 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I don't think the dead automatically rise.

Well they don't explicitly say one way or the other how it works but they sure seemed to think it necessary to burn every single dead body around the wall for the last few years, almost burned Jon. And the NW brother ghost found way back in season 1 that they brought in and tried to kill lord commander seemed to come back to life on its own, didn't need a white walker around, and  I doubt it could be that they need to be like killed by a wigt or white walker or anything because that wigt's body was right near the wall/by the nearby weirwood and I'd be surprised if a WW had been hanging outside castle black that long ago. 

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11 hours ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

In order to convince Danny, wouldn't be easier to fly with Dragon from a safe distance just to see the AoD? 

In order to convince Cersei..... wait are you freaking kidding that you want to have any conversation with Cersei? It would make some sense if they wanted to convince Jaime and doing so, making Jaime antagonize Cersei...

Anytime I see an episode wrote by David Hill I will still watch but at least I would be prepared for a high school level fan fiction...

 

Well, Dany does seem to be convinced already.

Like Cersei wouldn't just kill any of them on sight without hearing a word they have to say.  And I think Jaime has already antagonized her to a degree, hence why she threatened him.

So, David Hill writes all the stupid stuff?

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9 hours ago, L’Age d’or said:

Cersei would probably have Qyburn find a way to make the dead obey her, she doesn't need a zombie to be preented to her for her to know the dead can walk. Cersei has a zombie for a Kingsguard ffs!

This. I mean Jaime could have told Tyrion "Btw, we have already a sort of dead man in the form of FrankenGregor walking right over here, made by Qyburn." Given how news travels so fast everywhere in the GoT showverse, couldn't Varys at least know about Qyburn's experiments and that because of that Cersei could easily see this as another trick experiment.

And who knows how far a wight can be removed from the WW until the connection is severed and just returns to be dead. I'm not saying this is how it works but, the plan might be a big flop if the wight just 'dies' halfway towards KL.

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13 minutes ago, nymeria_2321 said:

Well they don't explicitly say one way or the other how it works but they sure seemed to think it necessary to burn every single dead body around the wall for the last few years, almost burned Jon. And the NW brother ghost found way back in season 1 that they brought in and tried to kill lord commander seemed to come back to life on its own, didn't need a white walker around, and  I doubt it could be that they need to be like killed by a wigt or white walker or anything because that wigt's body was right near the wall/by the nearby weirwood and I'd be surprised if a WW had been hanging outside castle black that long ago. 

It does seem that anything that dies within the WW sphere of magical influence (north of the wall) automatically rises when night falls unless burned.

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1 minute ago, SansaJonRule said:

It does seem that anything that dies within the WW sphere of magical influence (north of the wall) automatically rises when night falls unless burned.

If so technically Jon and crew could take a secured tied up and gagged dead human (or animal) body near the WW camp but out of sight and wait until it rises and sneak back to Eastwatch. Still risky but less likely to run into a fight.

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44 minutes ago, nymeria_2321 said:

Ignoring that fact that the plan is crazy because they can never trust Cersei I don't understand why they need to go north of the wall and get a wigt from the army of wigts. Everything previous seems to imply that if anyone for a long time now dies north of the wall or even nearby they will just turn into one, hence the need to always burn all the dead. So is there really no one in the north right now about to die of natural causes, someone willing to take one for the team, or some traitor or prisoner to execute that can just die and become their pet wigt???? Am I wrong? Like how is this not obvious.

The only reason I can come up with is the show needed a reason for an exciting scene interacting with knight king and dead army because otherwise I see literally no reason for this plan. 

I suggested to my husband that they kill Baeric and let him become their pet wight.  However based on the fact that people don't turn into wights south of the Wall, my expectation is that the wights would actually die once they get south..

But there is I believe an inconsistency regarding the wights.  In season 1, the corpse of a ranger was reanimated within the grounds of castle black, right?  But Benjen couldn't return to CB because of the magic that is in the wall, and he's not even a full wight.  Anyone have any ideas about that?

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8 minutes ago, Eddard Scissorhands said:

If so technically Jon and crew could take a secured tied up and gagged dead human (or animal) body near the WW camp but out of sight and wait until it rises and sneak back to Eastwatch. Still risky but less likely to run into a fight.

Yep, thought of that. That sure seems like the easiest and safest way.

Another thing about wights that I just thought of, if the corpses always reanimate when night falls afters they dies, then they shouln't really show any sign of decay, yet when you look at AofD, they are in various levels of decay.

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8 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

I suggested to my husband that they kill Baeric and let him become their pet wight.  However based on the fact that people don't turn into wights south of the Wall, my expectation is that the wights would actually die once they get south..

But there is I believe an inconsistency regarding the wights.  In season 1, the corpse of a ranger was reanimated within the grounds of castle black, right?  But Benjen couldn't return to CB because of the magic that is in the wall, and he's not even a full wight.  Anyone have any ideas about that?

Well with benjen it was because the children of the forest did something to him to like prevent him from becoming a full wigt (or something like that) so he's more like a WW human hybrid or something.

We need Sam and all his books to tell us exactly how people turn into wigts (or GRRM and his books) cause now I want to know how it works

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1 minute ago, SansaJonRule said:

Yep, thought of that. That sure seems like the easiest and safest way.

Another thing about wights that I just thought of, if the corpses always reanimate when night falls afters they dies, then they shouln't really show any sign of decay, yet when you look at AofD, they are in various levels of decay.

It seems the WW started reanimating the dead at some point in time maybe not too long ago. So maybe they ended up reanimating corpses that have been in the ground for a very long time, all over the lands of winter. Or the corpses just keep decaying post wight transformation.

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53 minutes ago, Eddard Scissorhands said:

It seems the WW started reanimating the dead at some point in time maybe not too long ago. So maybe they ended up reanimating corpses that have been in the ground for a very long time, all over the lands of winter. Or the corpses just keep decaying post wight transformation.

That's a very good point.  If they had been reanimating corpses for 1000s of years, the army would be even more massive than it is.  And remember just before Bran & Co got to the 3ER cave - Wights came out of the ground and attacked them.  I always wondered why they were still underground.

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I think the main issue here isn't even the stupidity of the actual plan or the staggering logistics involved, but that an easier faster solution is so obvious to see:

Dany could just do a Drive-by Dragon attack on the Red Keep, burn Cercei to a cinder, and spend the next few months consolidating her holdings, presumably get the North on her side by marrying the KitN, and then throw the entirity of Westeros at the problem.

All that would probaly still be faster than having Jon sail all the way North, letting him slowly walk his Badass Posse (TM)  all the way up to the Night King's army and then all the way back to KL. Also she doesn't risk lives of people who (semi-) support her unnesesarily. Also she doesn't run the risk of showing up at Cersei's doorstep with the wight and Cercei just telling her to go fuck herself anyways (which would be totally in character for Cercei too!)

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3 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

That's a very good point.  If they had been reanimating corpses for 1000s of years, the army would be even more massive than it is.  And remember just before Bran & Co got to the 3ER cave - Wights came out of the ground and attacked them.  I always wondered why they were still underground.

The Great Other works in mysterious ways haha. In the show that's probably the NK though?

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6 hours ago, ReforgeIce said:

Having never read the books I couldn't really comprehend what the fuss was about when there was talk that the show departed from them. But now I see clear as day the difference from the first 4 seasons and the shambles we have now. I will continue to watch it because I am far too invested in it but the ridiculous plot ploys like these are wrecking what started off as an amazingly complex series. I enjoy the mega scenes as much as the fan boy out there but the characters seem to have lost all their complexity. This expedition makes no sense and if by some way it succeeds it will make no overall difference as Cersei will not co-operate. What a waste.

 

I think that Cersei will cooperate; because until she can replenish her army with paid mercenaries from Essos (the Golden Company), she's lost much of her ability to defend her lands (except via Euron's navy, but that's on the seas).  It works in her favor to have Daenerys remain in Dragonstone doing nothing, and perhaps losing horses and men because they don't have enough food.  Cersei may discount the notion of a zombie army coming to ravage all of her kingdom; but she wouldn't mind meeting the Dragon Queen and taking her measure.  Cersei can arrange some interesting traps, perhaps dozens of manned ballistas to shoot down dragons after the chitchat with Daenerys, etc.

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6 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I think that Cersei will cooperate; because until she can replenish her army with paid mercenaries from Essos (the Golden Company), she's lost much of her ability to defend her lands (except via Euron's navy, but that's on the seas).  It works in her favor to have Daenerys remain in Dragonstone doing nothing, and perhaps losing horses and men because they don't have enough food.  Cersei may discount the notion of a zombie army coming to ravage all of her kingdom; but she wouldn't mind meeting the Dragon Queen and taking her measure.  Cersei can arrange some interesting traps, perhaps dozens of manned ballistas to shoot down dragons after the chitchat with Daenerys, etc.

That doesn't sound like much of a cooperation though. Cersei did say she wants to defeat her enemies like her father would.

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20 minutes ago, Eddard Scissorhands said:

The Great Other works in mysterious ways haha. In the show that's probably the NK though?

Let's hope not - if he is Westeros is F----ed.

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Jon and Daenerys battling with the Night King and his army, is totally in Cersei's interest, as she can prepare to fight the weakened victor of that struggle for all the marbles.

 

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