A Wight for Cersei? Seriously?

[Jcat]

6 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

It doesnt in the show, but in the books Tyrion dismisses Thorne & the hand in Clash. The hand had decomposed by the time Thorne was seen if i recall.

Thanks for clearing that up.  I was confused about that point because I am pretty familar with the show, and I don't remember the hand showing-up in KL.  When what actually happened is a book reader misremembered that event happening on the show.

6 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Yes, I think Tyrion had left him waiting around too long before finally giving him audience, which meant by the time he finally got to show the hand, it was nothing more than bones.

So Tyrion messed-up again?  Book Tyrion?  Shame.

1 hour ago, Iotun said:

It's fine, I'm sure the next episode will make up for it...

Unfortunately, Lerxst who posted above and who has seen the leaked episode 6 said that the stupidity introduced in episode 5 is not redeemed.

Maybe its time to take up drinking again.

[falcotron]

5 hours ago, Iotun said:

It's fine, I'm sure the next episode will make up for it...

There's one way they could make up for it.

Bringing back a wight does nothing, because, again, Cersei already believes in the army of the dead and knows they have to be defeated, so it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

What they need to do is convince Cersei that it makes more strategic sense for her to fight the dead alongside Dany first and take care of Dany second, than to let Dany fight the dead and take on the winner afterward.

So, how could they do that? Imagine that Tyrion knows this is a suicide mission, which will end with:

• Jon and his heroic supergroup of warriors all get wiped out. Or…
• The superfriends get captured and disappear without a trace. Or…
• The legends get captured, Dany has to come save them with her dragons, and one of the dragons gets killed and wighted (we all know that's going to happen at some point, right?).

If Tyrion goes to Cersei to report one of these outcomes to Cersei, that actually does change things. If it becomes obvious that Team Dany is so pathetic they can barely even slow down the dead without Cersei's help, she pretty much has to join in.

Of course if Dany knew Tyrion was planning to sacrifice her favorite sexy people and/or one of her children, she wouldn't be too happy about it, but hey, I didn't know it was a suicide mission, what a tragedy, but let's put that behind us and make the most of the opportunity so those brave men/your dragon didn't die in vain.

I'm pretty sure the show is not going to do this. And I don't even think the show should do this. It's just the only way the mission could actually make any sense, stupid as it is.

[Jcat]

2 hours ago, falcotron said:

There's one way they could make up for it.

Bringing back a wight does nothing, because, again, Cersei already believes in the army of the dead and knows they have to be defeated, so it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

What they need to do is convince Cersei that it makes more strategic sense for her to fight the dead alongside Dany first and take care of Dany second, than to let Dany fight the dead and take on the winner afterward.

So, how could they do that? Imagine that Tyrion knows this is a suicide mission, which will end with:

• Jon and his heroic supergroup of warriors all get wiped out. Or…
• The superfriends get captured and disappear without a trace. Or…
• The legends get captured, Dany has to come save them with her dragons, and one of the dragons gets killed and wighted (we all know that's going to happen at some point, right?).

 

I can only imagine show Tyrion conceiving of the later option if only just barely.  From what I understand book Tyrion is much darker and more devious.  Show Tyrion had some flashes of those traits through season 4 (do you remember how good the show was back then?)  

Show Tyrion is currently channelling Neville Chamberlain.  If he is able to deliver a still animated Wight to Cersei, he will fly back to Dragonstone.  And upon arriving will hold up a slip of paper and declare "peace for our time."  Yeah right.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

7 hours ago, Jcat said:

Thanks for clearing that up.  I was confused about that point because I am pretty familar with the show, and I don't remember the hand showing-up in KL.  When what actually happened is a book reader misremembered that event happening on the show.

So Tyrion messed-up again?  Book Tyrion?  Shame.

Tyrion lets his dislike for Thorne stop him from listening to anything Thorne has to say & he treats him & his message with contempt.

In the books Tyrion is rather self centered. He focuses on all the injustices he has been dealt rather than opportunities and goes through a lot of self loathing. This often results in him making a poor decision or two along the way. Or selfish ones like the murder of the musician that found out about Shae. The show stripped him of that hence a lot of book readers refer to show Tyrion as St. Tyrion.

[Jcat]

1 hour ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

Tyrion lets his dislike for Thorne stop him from listening to anything Thorne has to say & he treats him & his message with contempt.

I see.  Yeah that makes sense.  Thorne was a complete asshole.  Though I perfer him to that treacherous little shit Olly.

[Meera of Tarth]

I like how this video summarises the stupid plan...

 

[falcotron]

8 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I like how this video summarises the stupid plan...

They're still missing the big point: Cersei already knows about the army of the dead. So:

• Cersei: So what's this meeting about?
• Jon: We're here to convince you about the army of the dead.
• Cersei: I already know they exist. I was just talking with Jaime about them last week. I plan to defeat them on my own after they kill you and Dany. Or defeat you and Dany if you win. Either way, cool with me.
• Jon: Oh. Well, we brought you a wight.
• Cersei: Why?
• Jon: To convince you about the army of the dead.
• Cersei: The one I already told you I know about?
• Jon: Um… We brought you a wight!
• Cersei: Yes, I see that. And how does that change anything?
• Jon: But we brought you a wight!
• Cersei: Yes, good for you. I think we're done now. Please take your wight with you when you go. Just let me know when Dany is leaving Dragonstone so I can take it and start making my own dragonglass weapons to fight the dead in case you lose.

[Bowen Marsh]

On 8/13/2017 at 10:29 PM, Jcat said:

Something incredible happened tonight a show I have loved and followed for seven seasons just crapped all over itself.  Or should I say D & D just crapped all over it.  The scheme Tyrion proposes for Jon and crew to go to Eastwatch, and get a Wight as a showroom model to convince Cersei to at least grant a temporary armistice--is colossally stupid!  The show runners have ruined Tyrion.  

Does Tyrion not know his sister by now?  Even if they get a sample, can they preserve it long enough to get it down south?  Would Cersei even believe this is what Tyrion and others claim it to be, and not some alchemist's trick?  And even if he could convince her she is as likely to make an alliance with the Night King as she is Daenerys.  Cersei has no scruples.

I have never been so disappointed in any TV show I have followed as I am tonight.

One of the biggest problems that I see is that David Beniof and DB Weiss are getting most of their ideas from the fans.  Some fans wanted Tyrion to act as the voice of reason.  The lack of continuity is obvious because this is a pretty vicious man who murdered his own father on the toilet seat.  Then his lover.  Now this same dude is all emotional about something as perfectly reasonable as the execution of two traitors who refused to bend their knees after being given ample opportunities to do so.

Then this little Dick comes up with a plan to call for a cease-fire so he can send many men to go on an expedition to capture a wight.  Why Dany listens to Tyrion is a mystery.  Book Dany would never fall for this kind of bullcrap.  She would go after Cersei and sweep her out of the way so that matter could be settled before going north.  I say, torch the red keep one night.  Many more people will die if they continue to prolong this stand off.  It's better to kill a few hundred Lannister loyalists in the red keep than to continue this standoff.

[falcotron]

2 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

It's better to kill a few hundred Lannister loyalists in the red keep than to continue this standoff.

Are there even a few hundred Lannister loyalists there? I don't think I've seen anyone hanging out there besides Jaime, Cersei, Cersei's Mini-Me maid, and maybe one other servant in the background. That's a better surgical strike than even modern militaries can usually hope for.

[Bowen Marsh]

7 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Are there even a few hundred Lannister loyalists there? I don't think I've seen anyone hanging out there besides Jaime, Cersei, Cersei's Mini-Me maid, and maybe one other servant in the background. That's a better surgical strike than even modern militaries can usually hope for.

A few hundred Lannister guards.  The City Watch is in their pocket.  Qburn.  Gregor.  Jaime.  Bronn. 

[Jcat]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I like how this video summarises the stupid plan...

 

Thanks for posting that link.  It is a really good summary of everything wrong about the plan.  

3 hours ago, falcotron said:

They're still missing the big point: Cersei already knows about the army of the dead. So:

• Cersei: So what's this meeting about?
• Jon: We're here to convince you about the army of the dead.
• Cersei: I already know they exist. I was just talking with Jaime about them last week. I plan to defeat them on my own after they kill you and Dany. Or defeat you and Dany if you win. Either way, cool with me.
• Jon: Oh. Well, we brought you a wight.
• Cersei: Why?
• Jon: To convince you about the army of the dead.
• Cersei: The one I already told you I know about?
• Jon: Um… We brought you a wight!
• Cersei: Yes, I see that. And how does that change anything?
• Jon: But we brought you a wight!
• Cersei: Yes, good for you. I think we're done now. Please take your wight with you when you go. Just let me know when Dany is leaving Dragonstone so I can take it and start making my own dragonglass weapons to fight the dead in case you lose.

Yeah thats about how the conversation would go, although I doubt Cersei would allow Jon to leave.

2 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

One of the biggest problems that I see is that David Beniof and DB Weiss are getting most of their ideas from the fans.

Why Dany listens to Tyrion is a mystery.  Book Dany would never fall for this kind of bullcrap.

I think we are witnessing why GRRM's writings are so important, because without them to lean on D & D are writing fan fiction as many have complained.

I don't think book Tyrion would propose such a ridiculous plan in the first place.

[Illiterati]

15 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

One of the biggest problems that I see is that David Beniof and DB Weiss are getting most of their ideas from the fans.  Some fans wanted Tyrion to act as the voice of reason.  The lack of continuity is obvious because this is a pretty vicious man who murdered his own father on the toilet seat.  Then his lover.  Now this same dude is all emotional about something as perfectly reasonable as the execution of two traitors who refused to bend their knees after being given ample opportunities to do so.

Then this little Dick comes up with a plan to call for a cease-fire so he can send many men to go on an expedition to capture a wight.  Why Dany listens to Tyrion is a mystery.  Book Dany would never fall for this kind of bullcrap.  She would go after Cersei and sweep her out of the way so that matter could be settled before going north.  I say, torch the red keep one night.  Many more people will die if they continue to prolong this stand off.  It's better to kill a few hundred Lannister loyalists in the red keep than to continue this standoff.

Interesting....you are applying the rationale the US used to deploy atomic power against Japan.

[Jcat]

I just rewatched episode 5 and I forgot a key point in how the 'capture a Wight for Cersei' came to be a thing.  Yes Tyrion proposed getting one to show Cersei--the stupidity of that suggestion is not in question.  But 'the how' evolved in the subsequent conversation.  Ser Jorah provided the answer, seconded and reinforced by Jon Snow.

So Tyrion can be derided for proposing a really dumb idea.  But the rest of those assembled around the table could have told him to stuff it.  Instead, they helped facilitate the idea, and therefore shoulder some of the blame for contributing to it's realization.

[falcotron]

19 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

A few hundred Lannister guards.  The City Watch is in their pocket.  Qburn.  Gregor.  Jaime.  Bronn. 

I haven't seen the City Watch anywhere except holding back the crowds out in the city so they don't get too enthusiastic cheering for Dany or Euron, and Lannister guards only show up when Cersei is meeting foreign guests. Are either of them actually quartered in the Keep? I don't think they traditionally were. I know the Kingsguard are there, but that's just Jaime and Gregor nowadays, right?

Qyburn, you're right, I forgot about him (although he seems to live in his mad scientist lab beneath the dungeons, so maybe he'd survive), along with Gregor.

And Bronn, does he live in the Red Keep? I'll admit, I have no idea where he's supposed to be in between the times when Jaime summons him for an exciting adventure, but I guess I kind of assumed he just rides around window-shopping for castles by day and passing out in brothels by night, only to magically appear when Jaime rings the bell.

[Jcat]

20 hours ago, falcotron said:

Qyburn, you're right, I forgot about him (although he seems to live in his mad scientist lab beneath the dungeons, so maybe he'd survive), along with Gregor.

 

The one way this crazy plan redeems itself--is if Qyburn can be enlisted on the side of the living.  He is the Leonardo Di Vinci of GoT, and his inventiveness might be invaluable in the fight against the Night King and White Walkers.  Thats assuming he can be trusted to detach himself from Cersei's parochial interests.

[Illiterati]

21 hours ago, Jcat said:

I just rewatched episode 5 and I forgot a key point in how the 'capture a Wight for Cersei' came to be a thing.  Yes Tyrion proposed getting one to show Cersei--the stupidity of that suggestion is not in question.  But 'the how' evolved in the subsequent conversation.  Ser Jorah provided the answer, seconded and reinforced by Jon Snow.

So Tyrion can be derided for proposing a really dumb idea.  But the rest of those assembled around the table could have told him to stuff it.  Instead, they helped facilitate the idea, and therefore shoulder some of the blame for contributing to it's realization.

Blame is square on the shoulders of the show writers and producers for this headscratcher.

[Jcat]

4 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Blame is square on the shoulders of the show writers and proud ers for this headscratcher.

Indeed you are correct.

Forget Cersei.  Forget Euron.  Forget Littlefinger.  Even forget the Night King.  The real supervillains of GoT have become Benioff and Weiss!

[LucyMormont]

On 18/8/2017 at 10:24 PM, falcotron said:

They're still missing the big point: Cersei already knows about the army of the dead.

You said this several times. How is it that Cersei knows about the WW? I must have missed the whole thing, I can't recall her admitting their existence.

[3sm1r]

I feel the need to stress this point. Not only the plan itself doesn't make sense. Also all its details are illogical: why should they send two characters that are so important (Jon also has diplomatic tasks to carry on)? And don't tell me Mr Snow is the only one who saw the WW 'cause it's not convincing at all. Also, why should the Hound and Tormund be willing to go with them? This is still very puzzling to me, if someone has a proper answer I beg him to give it to me. 

[falcotron]

2 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

You said this several times. How is it that Cersei knows about the WW? I must have missed the whole thing, I can't recall her admitting their existence.

Go back and watch the scene near the end of this episode where Cersei talks to Jaime. Cersei makes it clear that she already knew about the meeting with Tyrion. She laughs at the idea of proof, but it's pretty clear that it's not because she doesn't believe Tyrion, but because she doesn't need any proof. She's already "come to believe that an accommodation with the Dragon Queen could be in our immediate interest", and she's prepared to fight dead men just like dragons, and defeat whatever stands in their way.

Cersei is already trying to work out how to use Dany and the Night King against each other so she can beat them both. Dany and friends are wasting their time trying to prove to her that the Night King exists.