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Joshy

Littlefinger's Game

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7 minutes ago, Charlie Hustle said:

Yes. but also little finger is under your nose and can cause a great divide south of the wall as well.

I think Littlefinger is the most dangerous person in Westeros, both for his enemies and for the Seven Kingdoms as a whole. If I were Bran, me personally, I would have been shouting, "He betrayed our father!"

But, Bran didn't do that. He won't do that because he isn't emotionally tied to his family anymore, or to the concept of Westeros as a kingdom. I think his only concern is that the dead go back to being dead, and that the living continue to live. If the Seven Kingdoms fall apart and become a democracy, or a slave nation in servitude to Braavos, or the new Dothraki breeding ground... none of that matters to Bran. He just wants human life to go on in the face of total annihilation. 

That is why I think Bran hasn't spoken up yet, and that is why I think he simply never will speak up against Littlefinger.

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2 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

 Someone needs to step in and the only person who can will be Bran.

I agree, the best, and probably only person who can intervene and expose Littlefinger is Bran. 

But I don't think Bran is going to become more human. I don't think he's going to snap out of his trance one day and say, "Oh hey guys, I'm lovable, adorable Brandon again." If anything, he is just going to go deeper into the magic of the Three-Eyed Raven until he becomes a tree or something. 

Just because he is Sansa's best hope, doesn't mean he will actually do anything. I just think he is beyond helping her at this point, he doesn't even recognize that he should be helping her. I don't think he will ever be a person again.

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I just hope that Bran wargs into a Dragon before the series ends. One time... give me that, one time, and I will consider my fan-service paid. 

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4 minutes ago, Joshy said:

I agree, the best, and probably only person who can intervene and expose Littlefinger is Bran. 

But I don't think Bran is going to become more human. I don't think he's going to snap out of his trance one day and say, "Oh hey guys, I'm lovable, adorable Brandon again." If anything, he is just going to go deeper into the magic of the Three-Eyed Raven until he becomes a tree or something. 

Just because he is Sansa's best hope, doesn't mean he will actually do anything. I just think he is beyond helping her at this point, he doesn't even recognize that he should be helping her. I don't think he will ever be a person again.

Metaphorically we can class Bran stark as nearly dead, i.e there is not much left of Bran and his former life.  His 3ER training was suppose to take a lot longer, but was cut short because Bran was marked in a vision he should not have been in. There the 3ER had to download a shit ton load of information, he has the ability to see everything but does not know everything. His brain is in fragments basically and the vision he had of Jon's parentage only served to ''fuck'' him up more, affecting his personality. He remembers so much more now but that doesnt mean he cant remember what it felt to be Brandon Stark. 

He just needs to time to learn to see better.

2 minutes ago, Joshy said:

I just hope that Bran wargs into a Dragon before the series ends. One time... give me that, one time, and I will consider my fan-service paid. 

Im definitely holding out for this too. The only abilities we know Bran is capable of is Warging and Greenseeing. So it would be pretty fitting if he was able to show how greatly powerful he was and warg a dragon.

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44 minutes ago, Joshy said:

He appears just innocent and weak enough that people don't outright murder him, and he seems to be just sincere enough in his friendships that people allow him to stay around. Also, he is brilliant with money, and money makes the world go round. 

For instance, with the Vale of Arryn, he won the affection of Robin Arryn, the "Lord of the Vale" and Petyr's puppet, so the Knights of the Vale have to follow him, even if they hate him. And in the North, he was the "Savior of the Battle of the Bastards," so even though the Starks are a bunch of murder hobos, they tolerate him because he provided a valuable service.

I'm really surprised that that is how you see Littlefinger.  "Innocent and weak enough", "sincere in his friendships" etc.  The character has no friends and is an outright snake!

Littlefinger was a great character when he was Master of Coin and brothelkeeper supreme with a network of spies in King's Landing, but ever since he delivered Sansa into the hands of the Boltons and broke with the crown, I haven't found his storyline convincing at all.

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3 minutes ago, storm.131 said:

I'm really surprised that that is how you see Littlefinger.  "Innocent and weak enough", "sincere in his friendships" etc.  The character has no friends and is an outright snake!

Littlefinger was a great character when he was Master of Coin and brothelkeeper supreme with a network of spies in King's Landing, but ever since he delivered Sansa into the hands of the Boltons and broke with the crown, I haven't found his storyline convincing at all.

APPEARS weak enough.  SEEMS sincere in his friendships.  Those two things are important ingredients of a manipulator.  Perception is reality.  We see his games and their consequences.  Everyone in story doesn't.

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3 hours ago, Illiterati said:

APPEARS weak enough.  SEEMS sincere in his friendships.  Those two things are important ingredients of a manipulator.  Perception is reality.  We see his games and their consequences.  Everyone in story doesn't.

Exactly. He is very good at buddying up next to people (as he is doing with Sansa) and has a way of making "I'll scratch your back, if you'll scratch mine" deals. He was great in King's Landing, he knew everyone's secrets and hinted at it just enough so that people were wary of him. But at the same time, he made himself useful to everyone in turns, keeping their favor just enough to stay alive and in power. 

I recall the scene between Littlefinger and Cersei where he hints to Cersei that he could reveal the nature of her relationship with Jaime, and Littlefinger says, "Knowledge is power." Cersei has her guards rough him up, and says, "Power is power." But then she immediately lets him go and says, "I would very much appreciate it if you could find Arya for me."

Littlefinger is useful, and even when he threatens people, they still value his skills. Ned Stark didn't trust Littlefinger an inch, always suspecting him of playing some foul game or joke. But, in the end Ned needed Littlefinger after Robert Baratheon died, so he went to Littlefinger for help. Despite knowing that LIttlefinger was untrustworthy, Littlefinger's "usefulness" won out and Ned took a risk. Ultimately, the risk caused him his life.

Littlefinger currently speaks for the Vale of Arryn, he is essentially acting as the "Warden of the East" until Robin comes of age. That means that he is the effective ruler of one of the Seven Kingdoms. If he can secure a marriage with Sansa, and turn the North against Jon Snow, he will control the power of 2 of the Seven Kingdoms. He doesn't need "friends." He just needs people to do what he wants. There is a reason that the Knights of the Vale followed him North. They didn't do it because they love him, they did it because he is a Master Manipulator.

As for appearing weak and innocent, when Jon Snow grabbed him by the throat and slammed him against a wall in the tomb, Littlefinger didn't try to fight back. He was just being submissive and saying, "I love Sansa." Jon didn't believe any of it, but the act is just believable that even part of me wants to think that maybe he genuinely loves Sansa.

As for seeming sincere in his friendships, he seems to be sincerely helping Sansa rule Winterfell in Jon's stead. He is always at her side, and despite herself, Sansa seems to appreciate his company and his service. He could stab her in the back at any moment, and it would be perfectly in character for him, if he had something to gain from it. But... for the moment, his friendship with her seems genuine, even if it is self serving. He is a genius, and the character is beautifully written.

Also, I personally think that Littlefinger is a bit of a tragic character. In his youth, he genuinely loved Catelyn Tully, so much so that he challenged the Stark Heir to a duel. After loving Catelyn Tully, how could any other woman compare? The pain which losing her must have caused him led him to become a brothel keeper and a hopeless grasper, always seeking higher political stature in an attempt to find self worth. He is a snake, and dangerous, but he is, in a way, just a victim of circumstance.

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this arc reminds me of the Asterix album "The Roman Agent". The roman can't conquer a gaul village so they sendd in an agent to sew discord This guy is supergood at it and manages to have the gauls tear  each other apart in slander and gossip by just giving a single gift. Littlefinger just needed a weak spot (Arya and Sansa's bad sister relation because admit it. It at ain't stellar) push slightly and wait the inevitable chaos.

I think this whole arc is meant to show more how goood LF is at this rather than Arya being bad. 

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10 minutes ago, earth127 said:

this arc reminds me of the Asterix album "The Roman Agent". The roman can't conquer a gaul village so they sendd in an agent to sew discord This guy is supergood at it and manages to have the gauls tear  each other apart in slander and gossip by just giving a single gift. Littlefinger just needed a weak spot (Arya and Sansa's bad sister relation because admit it. It at ain't stellar) push slightly and wait the inevitable chaos.

I think this whole arc is meant to show more how goood LF is at this rather than Arya being bad. 

I just read the cliff notes.....Cool story.  Especially the turnabout

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It seems very likely to me that LF is indeed trying to drive a wedge between the Stark sister... At first I didn't really get why, but like said above, in order to marry Sansa he needs to put more distance between her and her family. Maybe at first he tried to butter up to the Stark's (weird conversations with Jon and Bran, who both made quite clear what they thought) and since that didn't work he is trying try to separate Sansa from the others... At the same time trying to get her to be Warden of the North, so together they rule the North and the East..

I doubt this will work out though - I think Bran repeating LF's line "Chaos is a ladder" and then giving LF's knife to Arya was some pretty good foreshadowing to Arya killing LF with his own knife... I'm pretty sure Bran has atleast a hint about the real owner of the knife. Don't think he'll interfer anymore though, the kid seems pretty busy battling the Night King and wanted Arya to put the knife to use.

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20 hours ago, storm.131 said:

I'm really surprised that that is how you see Littlefinger.  "Innocent and weak enough", "sincere in his friendships" etc.  The character has no friends and is an outright snake!

He definitely is, but we have the benefit of seeing him from multiple angles, and we explicitly know he's a vile human being.  

If you're just meeting him, or really have no experience with him...  I'm sure he can be charming. He has to be able to pull that bs off or he'd have been killed ages ago.  

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2 hours ago, Lot Seven said:

I think Bran repeating LF's line "Chaos is a ladder" and then giving LF's knife to Arya was some pretty good foreshadowing to Arya killing LF with his own knife... I'm pretty sure Bran has atleast a hint about the real owner of the knife. Don't think he'll interfer anymore though, the kid seems pretty busy battling the Night King and wanted Arya to put the knife to use.

I agree. If I'm putting myself in Arya's shoes, I'm thinking "why would Littlefinger hide this scroll instead of destry it if he's trying to help Sansa?" I would be thinking that he was going to use the scroll to blackmail Sansa or to hold it over her with either the northern lords or Jon. But I think the Stark sisters will figure it out and I think that is when

Spoiler

we will hear Sansa say "the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives." Hopefully Sansa is saying that to LIttlefinger while Arya has the knife to his throat. This isn't really a spoiler since I'm just making it up, but anyway.

 

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On 8/13/2017 at 10:32 PM, Joshy said:

I believe Littlefinger's ultimate game is to marry Sansa and politically maneuver her into a position of power for his own gain. To accomplish this, he seems to by trying to break apart House Stark from within. His every move appears to have the purpose of driving a wedge between the brothers and sisters.

First, there is the fact that he has obviously been manipulating the lords of the north in secret to plant doubts in their minds about Jon Snow. He wants them to declare Sansa the Queen in the North and has been whispering plots in their ears in private.

And then there is the note. Obviously, Littlefinger intended for Arya to find it, and I believe he intends to use it to drive a wedge between Arya and Sansa. If you recall, he grinned wickedly when he saw Sansa's reaction to Arya training with Brienne. I think he noticed a vulnerable point in the unity of House Stark in the form of a weak bond between the sisters. 

He is playing a dangerous game, and he is doing so from within a den of wolves, but he is still a political mastermind, and could very well be dangerous for House Stark if they don't stop him.

"Could" be dangerous? Remind me who betrayed Ned and held a knife to his throat in the throne room, again? ;)

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13 hours ago, Illiterati said:

APPEARS weak enough.  SEEMS sincere in his friendships.  Those two things are important ingredients of a manipulator.  Perception is reality.  We see his games and their consequences.  Everyone in story doesn't.

But he doesn't appear or seem to be any of those things.  And, yes, everyone in the story doesn't see what he does, but some do and he is openly despised and everyone is suspicious of him...

 

7 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

He definitely is, but we have the benefit of seeing him from multiple angles, and we explicitly know he's a vile human being.  

Mid you're just meeting him, or really have no experience with him...  I'm sure he came be charming. He has to be able to pull that bs off or he'd have been killed ages ago.  

That's just my point:  the characters in the show aren't fooled by his slimy charm and they make derogatory comments directly to his face.  It just doesn't add up that someone with as many enemies as him AND with no powerful connections to protect him, hasn't been killed off.

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10 hours ago, Joshy said:

Also, I personally think that Littlefinger is a bit of a tragic character. In his youth, he genuinely loved Catelyn Tully, so much so that he challenged the Stark Heir to a duel. After loving Catelyn Tully, how could any other woman compare? The pain which losing her must have caused him led him to become a brothel keeper and a hopeless grasper, always seeking higher political stature in an attempt to find self worth. He is a snake, and dangerous, but he is, in a way, just a victim of circumstance.

I think you are being too kind.  I actually see him as a classic psychopath who gets off on the games.  It's not just about climbing the ladder.  I think his "love" for Catelyn was just an obsession, not true love at all.

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On 8/14/2017 at 8:14 AM, Samwell_Tarly said:

Arya is definitely being played its that simple really. I think its a little bit too complicated etc to think Arya is playing at being played by LF. 

If she knew she was being played, why would her paranoia grow more and her attitude to Sansa would change. 

but the previews showed an Arya at the play flashback. I interpret that to mean we are to recall Arya is able to play people, and has the actor's mask on at all times as a trained faceless man.

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2 minutes ago, Katleesi said:

but the previews showed an Arya at the play flashback. I interpret that to mean we are to recall Arya is able to play people, and has the actor's mask on at all times as a trained faceless man.

:) Very poignant observation

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On 8/16/2017 at 11:14 AM, Carl Drogo said:

Very good observation. Admittedly, I've always been a huge Sansa critic, both book-Sansa and show-Sansa. This is a character who, as a little girl, loved bossing around other people and later on, anytime she wasn't fearing for her life or doing something to survive, displayed the tendency of being willing to do nearly anything to obtain power. After all, this included marrying Joffrey and Ramsey. Granted, with Ramsey she had little clue what she was getting into, but with Joffrey, she only really started having a problem with him after he dumped her. Even after her father died, she still wanted to be his queen. 

Sansa was cooling on Joffrey before he killed her father, killing her father was the the last straw for her with Jeffery. I don't remember if it was in the books, but on the show she looks as though she is considering pushing Joffrey when he took her to see her father's and Septa Mordane's heads. 

She's smarter than she is letting on, she knows exactly what LF is and how far he'll go tonger what he wants. 

I don't know if Arya is playing LF or if she's being duped by him (I expect the former), but with her training she should be smart enough not to fall for his tricks. And it would be poetic justice for the most politically savvy man in Westeros to get beaten at the game by two girls. 

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2 things in Westeros usually get you killed.  Love and Ambition.  Littlefinger has lasted this long on sheer luck.  Sure he has had a lot to do with that luck, driving family against each other, the ability to read people really well and exploit their weaknesses, but his luck is gonna run out this season as he is nothing in the grand picture, living vs dead.  He has no role to play in that war and if the show can kill off a contract they will.  

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