Discussing Sansa XXXI: The plot thickens...

[Pandean]

1 hour ago, LucyMormont said:

Well, I am team Stark in this story, and she is one, so I'll always find good things in her. However I must admit that of all the siblings (and I count Jon among them), she is the one I like the least. On second thought, the new Bran is not my favorite either.

But you're right, people is too harsh on her, and often too quickly in expecting the worst of her. I recall some episodes ago, that some fans were expecting her to go bitter and angry at Bran's arrival, and I was like "no, she will be very happy to see her brother again, she is not the power hungry bitch you think she is"

The three of them had it coming, and it felt like justice to me.  Nonetheless, there is a difference. Arya killed Trent for what he did to Sirio, and the Freys for what they did to her family. It shows her fierce  loyalty, it does not have to be herself the person hurt. On the other side, Sansa kills her own "offender".

I don't find anything wrong with killing a man who raped and beat you every night, cut the cock and balls off and tortured your ex-ward, hunted girls for fun, and killed his own baby brother/stepmother, AND killed your own brother. I don't think killing him was overtly selfish while Arya's kills were overtly selfless--if that is what you're saying. 

 

[Gaz0680]

5 hours ago, Risto said:

But, Arya never questioned either of those. Her problem was with Sansa doing the most reasonable thing and of course, being in master chamber of WF. Those are Arya's points. And that is why they are so incredibly stupid.

You are wrong here. It was very clear Arya didnt really have a problem with Sansa taking their parent's bedroom. Arya only even mentioned it because she obviously thought Jon as KiTN should have that room. She wasnt to know he didnt want it or that he offered it to Sansa.

It did cause Arya to reflect on the selfish child Sansa she knew (hence her 'nice things' comment which certainly was true of S1 Sansa), which only would have elevated her suspicion.

 

[Gaz0680]

4 hours ago, Risto said:

No one said anything when Arya killed Walder, but we had extensive debate about Sansa killing Ramsay. 

Not true. A lot of people took issue with Arya baking Walders sons into a pie and said she was a full psychopath and criticised her character harshly for that. 

Also, there was debate when Arya killed all the male Freys in episode 1 this season.

 

[Green Knight]

On 8/14/2017 at 6:26 AM, Newstar said:

I think the writing implied that Arya was correct that Sansa was hoping that Jon wouldn't come back so that she could rule without him and get the power she wants (even if she felt bad for feeling that way), because Sansa when called on it couldn't deny it. They weren't just talking about Sansa contemplating the possibility that Jon may die, since Sansa characterized Arya's suggestion as a "horrible thing"; Arya was talking about Sansa--albeit secretly and guiltily--wanting Jon to die so that she could get Winterfell.

It's nice to get a reminder that Arya has always cared about Jon more than Sansa ever did or will and is outraged that Sansa would ever hope for Jon's death, even guiltily, because it would clear the way for her rule. Watching her fiercely defend Jon and get angry at Sansa for failing to do so feels more like Book Arya.

Agreed 

On 8/14/2017 at 7:02 AM, Mother of Mini Dragons said:

I'm actually glad this is showing with Arya. She's been built up as just this cool, awesome character and there's so much more to her than this cool fighter. She is very damaged and her way of dealing with obstacles is not the best in every situation. When she was talking about cutting off Lord Glover's and Royce's head, I kept thinking about Robb beheading Lord Karstark. The only difference is that Robb had an actual reason to be upset with Karstark, Arya is just mad that they are questioning Jon's decisions. She clearly has some more maturing to do. This scene certainly showed that Sansa is the more rational sister and definitely the correct one to be in charge. Yes, she likes a little power, but so does Arya or she wouldn't have had that smile she did when she walked away after killing all of the Freys.

That smile isn't because she enjoys power. It's because of the satisfaction she feels from just having avenged the brutal murder of her family members at the hands of a clan of inbred turncoats.

On 8/14/2017 at 7:12 AM, Newstar said:

Nah. The punishment for treason, which is what the Northern lords were openly proposing, is death. Jon said as much in 7x01. Jon also cut Janos Slynt's head off for less, for those making the absurd claim that Jon would be horrified by Arya's suggestion. Sansa was out of line for not shutting that shit down with a quickness (instead she let their praise sink in before saying that Jon was doing what HE thinks is best, a not-so-subtle jab for the Northern lords who have seen her openly criticize Jon's decisions), and Arya was correct to call her on it.

I think what infuriated Arya was not so much Sansa's failure to defend Jon but Sansa pretending that she wasn't power-hungry and that her motives were pure. 

I'd like to see both sisters come together in the end to ensnare Littlefinger in his own web. As a matter or fact, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that that is exactly what will happen in the end. . . 

 

The problem with with these threads is that everyone is trying to insert common sense and reason into a very complex fantasy story originally intended for books, that now has to be compressed and slapped together into a very limited number of one hour TV segments. They are going to create unnecessary drama and cut corners to get the results they want. Common sense and reason is going to take a very distant back seat...

[Pandean]

53 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Agreed 

That smile isn't because she enjoys power. It's because of the satisfaction she feels from just having avenged the brutal murder of her family members at the hands of a clan of inbred turncoats.

I'd like to see both sisters come together in the end to ensnare Littlefinger in his own web. As a matter or fact, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that that is exactly what will happen in the end. . . 

 

The problem with with these threads is that everyone is trying to insert common sense and reason into a very complex fantasy story originally intended for books, that now has to be compressed and slapped together into a very limited number of one hour TV segments. They are going to create unnecessary drama and cut corners to get the results they want. Common sense and reason is going to take a very distant back seat...

Common sense and Game of Thrones? What type of newfangled combination is that!

[Gaz0680]

1 minute ago, Pandean said:

Common sense and Game of Thrones? What type of newfangled combination is that!

I know right. Finding common sense in GoT is like trying to find it in real world politics - never going to happen. It doesn't exist.

[Green Knight]

On 8/14/2017 at 5:02 PM, Pandean said:

How the hell is she narcissistic and selfish?

In Season 1 she was a sheltered highborn girl who naively thought that life was a song.

If anything, Sansa is very very compassionate. She has yet to do anything to prove she is disloyal to her family; her main goal was the retake Winterfell and rebuild her family, she is trying to protect her family, she was so happy when Bran and Arya came back.

How is any of that narcissistic and selfish?

Sansa was a bratty sheltered naive 13 year old. She is now 19 and very very different. She's cautious, worldly, ambitious, compassionate, and can be ruthless to her enemies. She isn't the same character as she was in season 1.

And I think she's going to survive. But that's just me.

I love this statement. Sansa - in my opinion - is one of the moost misunderstood characters in the story. She was a product of her sheltered upbringing. She's had a very tough time - as have they all - but they all have their own unique way of coping with what's happened to them. 

If you think back to the Stark dire wolves, they pretty much mirrored their owners in personality. Sansa's "Lady" was sweet, gentle, and well mannered. She paid for Arya's wolf Nymeria's actions with her life. Nymeria was as wild and untamable as Arya. 

There's always been a bit of bad blood between Arya and Sansa because they have very different personalities, but I hope they work it out in the end. This story needs a little bit of good to go with all the bad. . .

[Pandean]

20 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

I know right. Finding common sense in GoT is like trying to find it in real world politics - never going to happen. It doesn't exist.

And my mother told me I'd never learn real life skills from Game of Thrones!!

[Pandean]

11 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

I love this statement. Sansa - in my opinion - is one of the moost misunderstood characters in the story. She was a product of her sheltered upbringing. She's had a very tough time - as have they all - but they all have their own unique way of coping with what's happened to them. 

If you think back to the Stark dire wolves, they pretty much mirrored their owners in personality. Sansa's "Lady" was sweet, gentle, and well mannered. She paid for Arya's wolf Nymeria's actions with her life. Nymeria was as wild and untamable as Arya. 

There's always been a bit of bad blood between Arya and Sansa because they have very different personalities, but I hope they work it out in the end. This story needs a little bit of good to go with all the bad. . .

Yeah. I think that both characters have also changed so much since the first season that its really doing a disservice to not see that.

Oooh--and speaking of the wolves. Nymeria is now practically feral and on her own which kind of parallels where Arya is right now, Lady is no more and Sansa is no longer who she was in the beginning. Summer died in the cave and Bran was told by Meera "You died in that cave"....that's interesting.

But yeah; I think people need to take what Arya and Sansa go through with each other with a grain of salt. It's obvious to me Arya's accusations are clouded with her bias and Sansa not properly explaining things could be her own bias.

 

[Mladen]

9 hours ago, Pandean said:

I feel like no matter what you say there will still be people who are like that. Especially if you're comparing Arya and Sansa's plot line. Arya got perverse glee from the way she killed Meryn Trant and Walder Frey which was fine. Sansa getting satisfaction from Ramsay's death? Psycho bitch.

IT just speaks how differently we judge these characters. I am not to say that what she did to Ramsay is good but calling her psycho while at the same time cheering for Arya is ludicrous. 

6 hours ago, Lerxst said:

Sansa should have died long ago... my opinion at least. She has to be the least likable character, who brings the least with her to any plot of the story. The one and only thing she has is her surname, and that's the only thing Littlefinger likes about her as well.

The fact that she's now throwing a potential wrench in Jon's plans is adding insult.

OK, here is a plot. Battle of the Bastards.

Without Sansa, LF and Vale lords would have no interest of saving Jon. 

So, Jon dies.

He can't convince Daenerys and others about White Walkers.

White Walkers win

The reason why Sansa is important is because her story (let's say, political story) supports the Jon's story (magical one). Starks had to reclaim WF so the world would get any chance against the White Walkers. The politics and magic are not two separate stories, they are just intertwining like spiral. 

[Mladen]

5 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

You are wrong here. It was very clear Arya didnt really have a problem with Sansa taking their parent's bedroom. Arya only even mentioned it because she obviously thought Jon as KiTN should have that room. She wasnt to know he didnt want it or that he offered it to Sansa.

It did cause Arya to reflect on the selfish child Sansa she knew (hence her 'nice things' comment which certainly was true of S1 Sansa), which only would have elevated her suspicion.

Even if she did, that still doesn't change the objective fact that Sansa didn't want to surround herself with pretty things like Arya said. For someone as lauded as perceptive as Arya has been, she misses a lot. She is clouded by her impression of Sansa years ago. On the other hand, Sansa seems the only one who understands how her siblings have changed.

5 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

Not true. A lot of people took issue with Arya baking Walders sons into a pie and said she was a full psychopath and criticised her character harshly for that. 

Also, there was debate when Arya killed all the male Freys in episode 1 this season.

Well, I admit that my perception on these debates is limited to this subforum as I rarely visit other sites. But I do remember that we actually had to defend Sansa last year from "what a psycho" attacks. 

5 hours ago, Green Knight said:

The problem with with these threads is that everyone is trying to insert common sense and reason into a very complex fantasy story originally intended for books, that now has to be compressed and slapped together into a very limited number of one hour TV segments. They are going to create unnecessary drama and cut corners to get the results they want. Common sense and reason is going to take a very distant back seat...

I agree with this. With Martin's books, we can use common sense as the characters' actions make sense. Here? Not s omuch. That is one of the problems why the entire Vale army conundrum is debated on the wrong level. Simply, it is not a treason, because they don't deal with it as a treason. Which is why many of us have issues discussing Sansa.

 

[Tianzi]

Also, one additional word for this damn chamber - Jon is the king, but he is not Lord Stark, he chooses to still go as a Snow. His position stems from his deeds, Sansa's stems from her legitimacy as a Stark. The room should be hers (after Bran forfeits his position as the Stark heir).

Also, Arya returned to Winterfell three minutes ago, and five minutes ago didn't even know Jon was the king and hasn't met him yet. Her strolling atound the castle and bitching about arrangements without knowing anything about the circumstances is just nonsense. And yet the show hints at Arya being correct about Sansa's "hidden motives", despite her basing her suspicions at Sansa doing things that are basically her job.

 

 

[Pandean]

5 hours ago, Risto said:

Even if she did, that still doesn't change the objective fact that Sansa didn't want to surround herself with pretty things like Arya said. For someone as lauded as perceptive as Arya has been, she misses a lot. She is clouded by her impression of Sansa years ago. 

 

What's interesting is that people are using Arya's FM training to say she's right. That she can tell what Sansa wants, her lies, she's playing the game of faces, etc. I think we really need to consider why Arya never became a FM (too tied down to judgment and emotion) and that she's not some mini god. But this seems to be what fuels some of the Sansa is power hungry/betraying Jon/etc.

 

Sansa does seem to acknowledge that her family is different now. But I wonder if she's the only one. Also I think anyone with eyes could see she's not betraying Jon. Where people get these things Idk.

[Gaz0680]

5 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I think we really need to consider why Arya never became a FM (too tied down to judgment and emotion)

Ive seen you make this claim several times, but I don't see how this is true. Arya isn't judgemental. Indeed, she's probably the most egalitarian of all the Starks in her approach.

There are two main reasons Arya struggled with her Faceless Man training:

1. Empathy - As she studied her targets as part of the mission, Arya came to empathise with them a great deal and understand why they are how they are which made her reluctant to kill them. We saw this with Lady Crane.

2. Anger - Arya's need for vengeance stems from her anger at her enemies for the harm they had inflicted on her and/or people she loves. 

We don't know for sure Arya failed her FM training. Maisie is definitely playing Arya differently this season and I am pretty certain that is a deliberate writing choice for where they intend to take the character and not an acting choice.

[Pandean]

23 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Ive seen you make this claim several times, but I don't see how this is true. Arya isn't judgemental. Indeed, she's probably the most egalitarian of all the Starks in her approach.

There are two main reasons Arya struggled with her Faceless Man training:

1. Empathy - As she studied her targets as part of the mission, Arya came to empathise with them a great deal and understand why they are how they are which made her reluctant to kill them. We saw this with Lady Crane.

2. Anger - Arya's need for vengeance stems from her anger at her enemies for the harm they had inflicted on her and/or people she loves. 

We don't know for sure Arya failed her FM training. Maisie is definitely playing Arya differently this season and I am pretty certain that is a deliberate writing choice for where they intend to take the character and not an acting choice.

Arya is judgmental though. Whether it's with the business with Lady Crane or her relationship with others. Emotions go into judgment. Arya is a very emotional character; she feels very strongly whether it's empathy, anger, hate, etc. So it's natural that those emotions--especially to subjects like her sister whom she felt very strongly about before, clouds how she thinks. We can see Arya using the past judgments of her sister (wants everyone to love her, likes pretty things, hates Jon) and applying them now without taking into consideration the present or letting Sansa even explain. That's judgmental.

Arya is not No One, though. She may or may not have completed her training but she chose to reject whatever it entailed when she left the FM and proclaimed herself as Arya Stark of Winterfell. Even when she was training, her will and stubbornness (and her desire to kill and gain vengeance versus being a servant of the MFG) held her back from truly being a FM, because to be a FM you have to be no one. Only No One can wear the faces without being poisoned (as an aside, wouldn't it be interesting if since Arya is not No One, she is slowly being poisoned mentally by the faces?) inside.

 

Either way, I'm off topic. This isn't a discuss Arya thread.

 

I apologize.

[Illiterati]

7 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Either way, I'm off topic. This isn't a discuss Arya thread.

 

I apologize.

An interesting point, is it possible to hold a deep discussion about Sansa without Arya being part of it?

[Mladen]

13 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

An interesting point, is it possible to hold a deep discussion about Sansa without Arya being part of it?

Yes, but right now, we can't discuss Sansa without Arya being mentioned. Just like last years we couldn't have discussed Sansa without Jon being part of it. 

[Illiterati]

Just now, Risto said:

Yes, but right now, we can't discuss Sansa without Arya being mentioned. Just like last years we couldn't have discussed Sansa without Jon being part of it. 

That's what I meant, it was a rhetorical question.

[Pandean]

19 minutes ago, Risto said:

Yes, but right now, we can't discuss Sansa without Arya being mentioned. Just like last years we couldn't have discussed Sansa without Jon being part of it. 

 

34 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

An interesting point, is it possible to hold a deep discussion about Sansa without Arya being part of it?

I was thinking that but I didn't want to derail the thread by mistake so...

*is quite new to these forums and very intimidated so she doesn't want to fuck up*

[Ice Walker]

7 hours ago, Risto said:

OK, here is a plot. Battle of the Bastards.

Without Sansa, LF and Vale lords would have no interest of saving Jon. 

So, Jon dies.

He can't convince Daenerys and others about White Walkers.

White Walkers win

There won't be a "Battle of the Bastards" without Sansa. Jon sails to the Summer Isles and the rest of the scum back at Westeros can just die fine.