Discussing Sansa XXXI: The plot thickens...

[a free shadow]

Seven hundred twelve hells.

[Raksha 2014]

I've always thought that Ned had something of a disconnect problem with Sansa.  Ned seems to have been closer to Arya both on the show and in the books.  He should have talked to Sansa a few days after Lady's death and discussed the implications of her not telling the truth; as despondent as she was; it was important.  (actually, he should have been horrified by the actions of Joffrey and Cersei and sent both his daughters back to Winterfell and broken the betrothal with Joffrey later)

I think the show writers have probably forgotten about poor Mycah's death, not to mention Sansa's part in that incident (and Sandor's killing of the boy).

 

[Illiterati]

4 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I've always thought that Ned had something of a disconnect problem with Sansa.  Ned seems to have been closer to Arya both on the show and in the books.  He should have talked to Sansa a few days after Lady's death and discussed the implications of her not telling the truth; as despondent as she was; it was important.  (actually, he should have been horrified by the actions of Joffrey and Cersei and sent both his daughters back to Winterfell and broken the betrothal with Joffrey later)

I think the show writers have probably forgotten about poor Mycah's death, not to mention Sansa's part in that incident (and Sandor's killing of the boy).

 

I agree with this.  Ned seemed detached from Sansa, but seemed to understand Arya.

[Lord Okra]

1 minute ago, a free shadow said:

Could you give an example of Arya being hateful towards anybody who did not do something very wrong first? Sansa, on the other hand... was mean to quite a few.

At this point, I just get a feeling that you are throwing things around, because you feel like it or want them to be true, without a care if they are true. Truthiness and not truthfulness

We have a situation when Sansa had to make a choice if to tell the truth and support a person without any means to defend himself and also her sister, or to lie and support a person in power who is also her ticket to good things.

 

Hateful would be too strong a term.  Arya was just antagonizing Sansa in early scenes without cause.  Arya had cause to throw food at Sansa?  No, she didn't.  Arya was the one who was reprimanded repeatedly early in the show for doing things she wasn't supposed to be doing.....including harassing/antagonizing Sansa.

You may recall her being sent away from dinner by Septa?  Perhaps you don't recall.

I'm not just throwing things around.  I'm following the story as it was shown on the actual tv screen.  Early on, Arya liked to harass and irritate her sister......PERIOD.....it is just a fact.  We get no scenes of Sansa harassing/antagonizing Arya.

As far as you holding onto her not telling the truth.  Ned Stark....IN SHOW.....already explained this to Arya.  If you are curious about the correct way to assess that situation then feel free to rewatch the first season and pay close attention to Ned Stark because he lays the issue to rest for most reasonable people.......just not Arya.

And that is fine.  Arya is Arya but she was a naïve girl who didn't understand what was at risk.....truly.  Sansa was drug before the King and asked to call Joffrey (her future husband) a liar.  Now, she could have just backed up Joffrey and then you'd have an actual argument imo.  However, she just recused herself from "testifying against my husband".......by saying she didn't know......

She was put in a tough spot and she did what she thought she could.

Ned understood it.

[Raksha 2014]

Just now, Illiterati said:

I agree with this.  Ned seemed detached from Sansa, but seemed to understand Arya.

 I did love the moments in the show when, after Ned buys what he thinks is the perfect doll for Sansa in King's Landing and she is not happy about it, Ned says gloomily "War is easier than daughters" - Sean Bean was great.  And I loved Ned even more for loving Sansa enough in the books, despite that detachment, to dishonor himself to save her life.

 

[Lord Okra]

1 minute ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 I did love the moments in the show when, after Ned buys what he thinks is the perfect doll for Sansa in King's Landing and she is not happy about it, Ned says gloomily "War is easier than daughters" - Sean Bean was great.  And I loved Ned even more for loving Sansa enough in the books, despite that detachment, to dishonor himself to save her life.

 

Sansa was pretty naïve and selfish back then.

Later on we get the scene of her looking at that doll and you can just feel she regrets what she had said to her father....recognizing she was being a brat at the time.

It was a good scene though.  It showed that Ned didn't really know his girl (he should have known she was beyond dolls) and 14 year old girls are....well....14 year old girls......they can be a handful.

[Lothar]

16 minutes ago, a free shadow said:

We have a situation when Sansa had to make a choice if to tell the truth and support a person without any means to defend himself and also her sister, or to lie and support a person in power who is also her ticket to good things.

 

Mycah was already dead by the time they brought Sansa before the King if that's what you're referring to.  The only person that was negatively impacted from Sansa's lie was Sansa.

[Pandean]

I still feel the need to point out that saying a Prince is lying is tantamount to treason. I mean, Cersei wanted to take Arya's hand off and tried to get Jaime to kill her for what happened. Sansa also didn't say Joffrey was right. She denied seeing the events. Still not the best side to take but in the case of defending her family or doing what a wife must do and never testifying against her betrothed, she did what she could.

I think I may be wrong, but we have other points in the first season where married characters (Cersei for one) get in big trouble for going against their husbands.

 

[a free shadow]

As-many-as-there-are-steps-in-the-Citadel hells :ninja:

[Gaz0680]

1 hour ago, Lord Okra said:

Hateful would be too strong a term.  Arya was just antagonizing Sansa in early scenes without cause.  Arya had cause to throw food at Sansa?  No, she didn't.  Arya was the one who was reprimanded repeatedly early in the show for doing things she wasn't supposed to be doing.....including harassing/antagonizing Sansa.

You may recall her being sent away from dinner by Septa?  Perhaps you don't recall.

I'm not just throwing things around.  I'm following the story as it was shown on the actual tv screen.  Early on, Arya liked to harass and irritate her sister......PERIOD.....it is just a fact.  We get no scenes of Sansa harassing/antagonizing Arya.

Arya was antagonising and harassing Sansa??

Lol Sansa was absolutely horrible to Arya in the books and was a bully.

Showwise, they didnt display any of that in season 1, but they also didnt show Arya harassing Sansa or antagonising her at all, so your claim is pure opinion not fact.

As for the Septa sending Arya away that was because of her outspoken unladylike behaviour, NOT because of anything she did to Sansa. And btw, Arya was in the right in that scene anyway. She didnt do anything wrong. 

They showed Arya fling food at Sansa once. So what, she was a kid. Ever think maybe she was just trying to have a little fun with Sansa and maybe get Sansa to throw it back? 

 

[Alayne's Shadow.]

3 hours ago, Illiterati said:

Sansa sold out Ned, Arya, and the entire family for a chance to be queen.  That's something one might apologize for, once they grew up and realized what they had done.....

That's not at all what happened in the books. Sansa was a naive, sheltered child that had no idea in what she was getting herself into. She thought she was fixing things, hence why she goes to Cersei and pours her heart out. She's not power hungry to be Queen. She's a romantic pre-teen that idealizes the whole idea of being a Queen and the romantic ideals that were sold to her at such a young age.  

Honestly, this will always be an issue for me. For me, I'll never understand how people are usually so hard on Sansa because she was naive. She's an eleven year old girl, for Christ's Sake! Who's a political genius at eleven? Part of why I like Sansa so much is just because her journey is all about evolving and growing and developing not only political acumen, but her own sense of identity and agency. 

[Illiterati]

4 minutes ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

That's not at all what happened in the books. Sansa was a naive, sheltered child that had no idea in what she was getting herself into. She thought she was fixing things, hence why she goes to Cersei and pours her heart out. She's not power hungry to be Queen. She's a romantic pre-teen that idealizes the whole idea of being a Queen and the romantic ideals that were sold to her at such a young age.  

Honestly, this will always be an issue for me. For me, I'll never understand how people are usually so hard on Sansa because she was naive. She's an eleven year old girl, for Christ's Sake! Who's a political genius at eleven? Part of why I like Sansa so much is just because her journey is all about evolving and growing and developing not only political acumen, but her own sense of identity and agency. 

Everything you say is true.  Yet still, even if not apologizing, she could address it, and say, "I was so naive and foolish.  I thought I could help."  Not just look down her nose at Arya and then huff off when she sees Arya is a bad-ass.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

3 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Everything you say is true.  Yet still, even if not apologizing, she could address it, and say, "I was so naive and foolish.  I thought I could help."  Not just look down her nose at Arya and then huff off when she sees Arya is a bad-ass.

She does address it, she says, quite clearly, "I was a child." Arya's the one attacking her, accusing her of not doing nothing, when in fact, Sansa did what she thought she could do, by asking for mercy in the court, and which Joffrey said he'd concede. Sansa's not in the wrong here, Arya's accusing her of being a traitor, ignoring the entire context of the situation, which is, she was forced to write the letter. She got angry, but of course she carries the weight of her naivety with her, as she reminisces about it in 6X10.

Sansa: "I came here everyday when I was a girl. Prayed to be somewhere else. Always thinking about what I wanted, never about what I had. I was a stupid girl."

LF: "You were a child." 

[Lord Okra]

1 hour ago, Gaz0680 said:

 

Lol Sansa was absolutely horrible to Arya in the books and was a bully.

 

Whatever happened in the books doesn't matter if it isn't on the show somewhere.

Show Sansa is show Sansa and show Arya is show Arya.

I'm not talking about the books at all.

And we get a several scenes and/or references in the show to Arya doing mean stuff to Sansa but we don't get the opposite.....Sansa being mean to Arya.

I like both characters (show) and see no reason to be mad at either over anything.  Still, in show there is Arya messing with Sansa and stories about how Arya used to mess with Sansa......member that tale Sansa told about Arya sewing up crap into her bed?

We get little stuff like that throughout the series.  Stuff reinforcing this theme that Arya doesn't like Sansa.  They never give a really just cause for it either other than Arya doesn't like her sisters style/goals/dreams/skills.

From tossing food to "Like bloody hell" when Sansa is talking about having babies to Arya telling her father she "hates" Sansa to even the first interaction when they finally reunite......from the first comment by Arya continuing to the half hearted hug she gave Sansa.

Arya doesn't like Sansa for "reasons."  In show, the "reasons" are pretty petty.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Seven save us but the Dorne storyline was probably better than this Winterhell shitfest! This is how I make sense of this mess - Sansa and Arya have different personalities, like Risto pointed out in the title of the last thread Sun and Moon, yet they still know the cores of each other even through the changes.  

Arya has learned more cold control for someone who wears her heart on her sleeve, however she still shows her heart to Sansa, along with Sansa knows how to push her buttons to bring out her true feelings. Sansa has learned more calculated flexibility for someone who is so steadfast to their values, in spite of that she will bend just for Arya's sake, besides Arya knows how to force her hand.

Sansa is still using Littlefinger while keeping options open however now Arya has been thrown in the mix, with the fact she does not want him there. Sansa knows Arya will not be able to "stay out of it" and she will be forced to choose. It's a given for me that Sansa will choose Arya, not to mention getting rid of LF is for the best anyway, no matter how terribly Arya has been written here.

Each one is playing a dangerous game with a master manipulator even so I believe they will save each other. Sansa should not be playing games with this man anymore, nevertheless to protect Arya she will finally put an end to this. Arya is playing games instead of telling him to leave or simply killing him since she's trying to play it Sansa's way and I think Sansa sees that. They are both forcing each other to act to get rid of the threat in the best way.

It's really sweet when you look at it this way. No matter how it's written to fool us with more fake family feuds I believe they really are learning to overcome their differences. They are family, they love each other, they will protect each other, and they both know the pack survives.

 

[Lord Okra]

2 minutes ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

Seven save us but the Dorne storyline was probably better than this Winterhell shitfest! This is how I make sense of this mess - Sansa and Arya have different personalities, like Risto pointed out in the title of the last thread Sun and Moon, yet they still know the cores of each other even through the changes.  

Arya has learned more cold control for someone who wears her heart on her sleeve, however she still shows her heart to Sansa, along with Sansa knows how to push her buttons to bring out her true feelings. Sansa has learned more calculated flexibility for someone who is so steadfast to their values, in spite of that she will bend just for Arya's sake, besides Arya knows how to force her hand.

Sansa is still using Littlefinger while keeping options open however now Arya has been thrown in the mix, with the fact she does not want him there. Sansa knows Arya will not be able to "stay out of it" and she will be forced to choose. It's a given for me that Sansa will choose Arya, not to mention getting rid of LF is for the best anyway, no matter how terribly Arya has been written here.

Each one is playing a dangerous game with a master manipulator even so I believe they will save each other. Sansa should not be playing games with this man anymore, nevertheless to protect Arya she will finally put an end to this. Arya is playing games instead of telling him to leave or simply killing him since she's trying to play it Sansa's way and I think Sansa sees that. They are both forcing each other to act to get rid of the threat in the best way.

It's really sweet when you look at it this way. No matter how it's written to fool us with more fake family feuds I believe they really are learning to overcome their differences. They are family, they love each other, they will protect each other, and they both know the pack survives.

 

I agree.

This is just them wrapping up this part of the story (Sansa/Arya don't get along).  We are witnessing the final act where they finally accept each other and love each other as sisters....accepting the other for what she is....

It is an appropriate ending imo for the way the story has gone.

Yes, it could have been better written (esp the Arya side so far) but I think we get a nice closure to their mini feud with the end of LF.

[Lothar]

1 hour ago, a free shadow said:

I am not quite sure when it happened in the show, but I do remember that Sansa was at least not aware of his death at the point of making her statement.

But her statement right or wrong did nothing to Micah.  The Hound was already coming back with his dead body when Ned left Robert and Sansa. 

[Gaz0680]

23 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Whatever happened in the books doesn't matter if it isn't on the show somewhere.

Show Sansa is show Sansa and show Arya is show Arya.

I'm not talking about the books at all.

And we get a several scenes and/or references in the show to Arya doing mean stuff to Sansa but we don't get the opposite.....Sansa being mean to Arya.

I like both characters (show) and see no reason to be mad at either over anything.  Still, in show there is Arya messing with Sansa and stories about how Arya used to mess with Sansa......member that tale Sansa told about Arya sewing up crap into her bed?

We get little stuff like that throughout the series.  Stuff reinforcing this theme that Arya doesn't like Sansa.  They never give a really just cause for it either other than Arya doesn't like her sisters style/goals/dreams/skills.

From tossing food to "Like bloody hell" when Sansa is talking about having babies to Arya telling her father she "hates" Sansa to even the first interaction when they finally reunite......from the first comment by Arya continuing to the half hearted hug she gave Sansa.

Arya doesn't like Sansa for "reasons."  In show, the "reasons" are pretty petty.

What are these "several references" to Arya doing mean stuff to Sansa?? She flung food at her once. Thats it.

There are no other hints or references to Arya doing anything to Sansa in the show. Its all in your head.

And there is NOTHING reinforcing this imagined theme that Arya doesnt like Sansa. Indeed, even when Arya was angry with Sansa in season 1 (justifiably so) for lying (and saying she did t see WAS a lie, Sansa knew exactly what really happened), she even said to Ned "I dont hate her, not really".

Was Arya angry with Sansa in the show? Absolutely

Did she ever bully or be mean to Sansa in the show or do anything to indicate she hated her?? Absolutely not. The food flinging was just fun and didnt prove any ill intent at all.

[Lord Okra]

7 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

What are these "several references" to Arya doing mean stuff to Sansa?? She flung food at her once. Thats it.

 

I've already addressed this.  I'm not going to list every vague reference to Arya's dislike of Sansa.

I think if you read every post I've made in the topic on the subject I've got like 5 or 6 instances, references to instances, flat out statements by Arya to that effect, subtle references by Arya to that effect......

It isn't just about she did mean stuff to Sansa as a child.  We get a LITTLE of that.....a scene and a reference......but goodness, so what?

It isn't like this destroys Arya as a person or something.  Why is it such a big deal to you that you need to deny it was part of the show?  I don't understand.

Arya and Sansa didn't get along.  It is what it is.  It is just part of the drama/conflict within this massive story.  She didn't do anything that bad to Sansa but she was mean to Sansa (as a mischievous sister would be in good writing).  

Nothing supporting it you say?

Not Arya's own words huh?  She tells her own father that she hates Sansa before backing it down AFTER her fathers shows her she isn't being fair.  How about when Arya is listing the family she needs to get back to and then OBVIOUSLY......for dramatic effect.....and to reinforce this Arya doesn't care much for Sansa compared to her other family........belatedly adds Sansa to the list?

If Arya's own words and actions don't convince you that she wasn't fond of Sansa then I can't convince you.

I suggest rewatching the show.

[Pandean]

Sewing shit into her bed (apparently multiple times)

Fling food

Pulling on Sansa's hair and beating her back with her fists

Mocking Sansa's femininity/having babies/etc.

Saying she hates Sansa

Reluctantly acknowledging she's part of her family

Treating her like a traitor because she has the master bedroom

Spoiler

Every interaction they have in the leaked ep 6

 

Arya has done a lot of mean stuff to Sansa.

 

I believe @LordOkra mentioned these too.