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Risto

Discussing Sansa XXXI: The plot thickens...

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19 minutes ago, teej6 said:

The problem is Sansa's temptation and Arya's love for Jon is not clear in the final product and most people are seeing it as stupidity on Arya's part. If they would have clearly shown Arya protecting Jon's interests instead of having her talk about chopping off heads and being pissed at Sansa for taking Ned and Cat's room it wound have been much better. 

Well, if we discard the chopping heads off and moaning about the room and nice things, one gets to the point. Not the most precise point as Arya's point seems to be "you want power if something happens to Jon" which is like saying "Sun will most likely rise in the east". The entire conversation could have been handled better. I just expected their conflict to be far more interesting than this. They are different and they grew up into two strong women. They deserve better than this :D 

14 minutes ago, Sand11751 said:

Unlike Jon and Sansa's faux fights, the conflicts between Arya and Sansa are perfectly portrayed because they've simmered for a long time. But I don't like one aspect of Sansa looking afraid or worried; that's not right, they wouldn't physically hurt each other. Being afraid that Arya would wreck things, yes, that's more sensible. And Arya was right; where's the sense of loyalty to Jon in his absence? It's too much to ask that the sisters resolve a lifetime of differences in two episodes but both are smarter than Littlefinger and shouldn't let him come between them anymore.  

Well, he has been gone for quite some time. People tend to be a bit restless when their King is missing indefinitely. I think there must be months since Jon left WF.

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38 minutes ago, dantares83 said:

i think it is a plot by Arya to get Littlefinger to reveal everything about himself

she has heard what Bran said that Littlefinger was the main cause of their misery and vows revenge and hopes Littlefinger has a worse death that Walder Frey (eating his sons before his death)

Where did Bran say this? I seem to have missed that moment, which is a shame, I can't wait until LF is dealt with. Preferably by defenestration, after his machinations are revealed. 

I think he overplayed his hand with Sansa- she's tempted by the power being lady Stark brings, but I doubt she's forgotten that he sold her to a psychopath. And I've no doubt Arya would confront her about the letter, but Im sure they'd talk it out.

Also, wtf is Bronze Yohn doing? He was suspicious of LF and now he's going around following his orders. 

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2 minutes ago, Risto said:

Well, he has been gone for quite some time. People tend to be a bit restless when their King is missing indefinitely. I think there must be months since Jon left WF.

 

Yes, and strangely Cersei's hair hasn't grown since season 5. Or maybe she likes the short look. Hard to keep track of time.

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15 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

Also, wtf is Bronze Yohn doing? He was suspicious of LF and now he's going around following his orders. 

I feel as all the secondary characters have been utterly destroyed this season. Just look at the Tarlys. Maesters behave like the information they are getting are completely irrelevant. Nothing has been fleshed out. I just wish we have more time to see Northern and Vale lords discussing Jon's absence and Sansa dealing with that. 

As for why Royce is following LF's orders, he is after all the Protector of the Vale given his status as guardian of SR. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

 

Also, wtf is Bronze Yohn doing? He was suspicious of LF and now he's going around following his orders. 

This hit me too. They forgot about it probably, why bother with some previous stories.

So is this the level LF is plotting on now? He has fallen low. That letter (if it's the one I think), can be easily ruled out as Cercei's threat to Robb instead of Sansa's authentic content. 

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31 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:
13 minutes ago, Risto said:

I feel as all the secondary characters have been utterly destroyed this season. Just look at the Tarlys. Maesters behave like the information they are getting are completely irrelevant. Nothing has been fleshed out. I just wish we have more time to see Northern and Vale lords discussing Jon's absence and Sansa dealing with that. 

As for why Royce is following LF's orders, he is after all the Protector of the Vale given his status as guardian of SR. 

 

Also, wtf is Bronze Yohn doing? He was suspicious of LF and now he's going around following his orders. 

Glover at the end of last season literally said "he would regret forever not being at the Battle of the Bastards with jon till he dies" and then he completely ignores that 4 months later. Royce wanted to murder LF and now seems to be siding with him. I don't understand why everyon eis getting restless. They are preparing for war and basic instructions can be handled by Sansa. So why is it such a big deal for Jon to be present right now in the North, instead of gathering allies from the South?

Why hasn't Arya done the most basic thing and tracked down the servant girl LF was talking with and see what she said to him instead of following him around to read that letter. Or do this crazy thing where she asks the Maester what letter she gave to LF since she is the Lady of the House instead of being caught by LF?

And why is Bran the most useless person of all time in sharing any information he knows with his family.  If it has indeed been months since the first episode, I don't see how any significant conversation hasn't happened yet. 

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1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Nah. The punishment for treason, which is what the Northern lords were openly proposing, is death. Jon said as much in 7x01. Jon also cut Janos Slynt's head off for less, for those making the absurd claim that Jon would be horrified by Arya's suggestion. Sansa was out of line for not shutting that shit down with a quickness (instead she let their praise sink in before saying that Jon was doing what HE thinks is best, a not-so-subtle jab for the Northern lords who have seen her openly criticize Jon's decisions), and Arya was correct to call her on it.

I think what infuriated Arya was not so much Sansa's failure to defend Jon but Sansa pretending that she wasn't power-hungry and that her motives were pure. 

I'll have to re-watch the episode, but I don't remember what they were saying coming to the point of making me feel it was treasonous. I'm more with the other posters that a lot of this is faux drama to keep this plot going. I would have much preferred that they followed the Northern story a little better than this. Sansa listens to their complaints and she stands up for Jon. I don't think it's a character flaw that Sansa like ruling. She can support Jon as King and enjoy helping him rule at the same time. Sansa is not plotting against Jon or any of her family.

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32 minutes ago, Mother of Mini Dragons said:

I'll have to re-watch the episode, but I don't remember what they were saying coming to the point of making me feel it was treasonous. I'm more with the other posters that a lot of this is faux drama to keep this plot going. I would have much preferred that they followed the Northern story a little better than this. Sansa listens to their complaints and she stands up for Jon. I don't think it's a character flaw that Sansa like ruling. She can support Jon as King and enjoy helping him rule at the same time. Sansa is not plotting against Jon or any of her family.

Glover and Royce were talking about replacing Jon (KITN) with Sansa (QITN). That is treasonous, plain and simple and punishable by death. But instead of viewers getting this message, we have Arya's line of chopping off heads sounding crazy and vengeful. What would have worked better is if Arya called Glover and Royce out for their treasonous statement right in front of all assembled. I mean come on they had Sansa undermining Jon every second a couple of episodes ago. It would have been nice to see her get irritated with Arya's interference and in the process Arya could have put the fear of the old Gods in those treasonous old men.

And you are right about it all being faux drama to keep the plot of WF going. They don't have Stannis, or the real Northerners (book Northmen are fiercely loyal) or the Boltons anymore so they give us Creepyfinger and  his ridiculous scheme to get two teenage sisters fight/hate each other, while in the other room their omniscient brother is zoned out. 

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The entire Winterfell plot is currently being sacrificed for LittleFinger's future.  The relationship between the 2 sisters is how LF plans to become powerful again and it does show us that he is a patient dude. BUT I get antsy with this plot because the sisters could just inquire of the Bran 9000c model  who is  out sitting in the yard.  He could tell them everything they want to know.  This plot line is going to a be a 'wait through' until it is resolved. 

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1 minute ago, lakin1013 said:

The entire Winterfell plot is currently being sacrificed for LittleFinger's future.  The relationship between the 2 sisters is how LF plans to become powerful again and it does show us that he is a patient dude. BUT I get antsy with this plot because the sisters could just inquire of the Bran 9000c model  who is  out sitting in the yard.  He could tell them everything they want to know.  This plot line is going to a be a 'wait through' until it is resolved. 

It will be resolved either next week or probably in the final episode, they've kept LF alive for no reason all season, might as well stretch it to the final episode. 

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1 hour ago, Risto said:

Well, if we discard the chopping heads off and moaning about the room and nice things, one gets to the point. Not the most precise point as Arya's point seems to be "you want power if something happens to Jon" which is like saying "Sun will most likely rise in the east". The entire conversation could have been handled better. I just expected their conflict to be far more interesting than this. They are different and they grew up into two strong women. They deserve better than this :D 

Well, he has been gone for quite some time. People tend to be a bit restless when their King is missing indefinitely. I think there must be months since Jon left WF.

But most viewers haven't got the point. All they see is two Lords wishing Sansa was queen and her magnanimously rejecting the offer and then crazy wild Arya attack Sansa with "you like nice things so you could feel better than everyone, and you should have chopped off heads". 

And I'm sorry I disagree with the Jon having been gone for awhile so mutiny is acceptable argument. Glover not too long ago swore to have Jon's back till the bitter end and all of a sudden he's like I made a mistake in not choosing you Sansa. 

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It just baffles me that every episode people find another way to hate on Sansa and worship Arya. The fact that people still see her as the naive little girl from season 1 who "betrayed" her family while Arya can do no wrong...I'm convinced Sansa could save Westeros and usher in a new area of peace and people would still say she's a power hungry bitch.

 

i think the argument about Arya knowing things because she has FM training is lacking--Sansa didn't even say anything in front of Arya about the things she said regarding power so Arya can't tell if she's lying or not for something she didn't say. Arya also isn't some typs of omnipotent god. Yeah she trained with the FM but she ultimately fIled the training because she couldn't separate her emotions and judgements from her duty. So I feel like that argument doesn't work.

Im just remembering how last week people say Arya could be a better Lady of Winterfell

 

uhhhh

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I don't see how the conversation with the other lords is treason. Sansa is holding court--part of that is listening to others complaints. I don't think when they said what they said they were suggesting mutiny but relaying how they felt betrayed. Saying "perhaps we should've chosen you" because they felt abandoned because Jon has been gone for months and for all they know he's frolicking with the dragon queen isn't suggesting or inciting a mutiny 

 

part of holding court is listening to subjects complaints 

Jon didn't inherit the throne--he was chosen. It's natural for those who chose him to voice their concerns.

 

i think Sansa handled the situation well. And obviously chopping off heads isn't going to help. 

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1 minute ago, Pandean said:

It just baffles me that every episode people find another way to hate on Sansa and worship Arya. The fact that people still see her as the naive little girl from season 1 who "betrayed" her family while Arya can do no wrong...I'm convinced Sansa could save Westeros and usher in a new area of peace and people would still say she's a power hungry bitch.

 

i think the argument about Arya knowing things because she has FM training is lacking--Sansa didn't even say anything in front of Arya about the things she said regarding power so Arya can't tell if she's lying or not for something she didn't say. Arya also isn't some typs of omnipotent god. Yeah she trained with the FM but she ultimately fIled the training because she couldn't separate her emotions and judgements from her duty. So I feel like that argument doesn't work.

Im just remembering how last week people say Arya could be a better Lady of Winterfell

 

uhhhh

It's not hating on Sansa rather hating on the Sandra D&D has conjured up. Sansa in the books is beginning to manipulate and understand people like LF and their motives well. She is consistent. ShowSansa is all over the place. I wouldn't mind if they showed her being hungry for power and acceptance as the showrunners intended if the character and her motives were fully fleshed out. Instead we have the split personality Sandra with her fifty shades of nonsense. And the fact that she has Creepyfinger tailing her around like a love sick puppy is not making Sandra any more likable. And I'm not buying the we need the Vale army nonsense. She has Royce singing her praises. If Sansa is such a player all she needs to do is turn Royce against LF, which should be a piece of cake for her. Instead we have him lurking around and looking creepy so that we can have some good old soapy tension in WF. Of course everyone and their mother knows that in the end, LF will get what's coming to him but till then we have sit through this teenage faux drama.

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2 minutes ago, teej6 said:

It's not hating on Sansa rather hating on the Sandra D&D has conjured up. Sansa in the books is beginning to manipulate and understand people like LF and their motives well. She is consistent. ShowSansa is all over the place. I wouldn't mind if they showed her being hungry for power and acceptance as the showrunners intended if the character and her motives were fully fleshed out. Instead we have the split personality Sandra with her fifty shades of nonsense. And the fact that she has Creepyfinger tailing her around like a love sick puppy is not making Sandra any more likable. And I'm not buying the we need the Vale army nonsense. She has Royce singing her praises. If Sansa is such a player all she needs to do is turn Royce against LF, which should be a piece of cake for her. Instead we have him lurking around and looking creepy so that we can have some good old soapy tension in WF. Of course everyone and their mother knows that in the end, LF will get what's coming to him but till then we have sit through this teenage faux drama.

I literally can't see any of this in any bit of the show

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3 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I literally can't see any of this in any bit of the show

Which part of it can't you see? The inconsistency in Sansa's character? 

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5 hours ago, Risto said:

Yes, but Sansa did stand up for Jon. She reminded people that he is their King. I said this on the other thread, we have to understand Sansa's position here. Jon has been gone for months, so naturally the lords started to stir. They need stability, structure and Sansa is currently the only one offering that. She is not some power-hungry monster. She was ready to give her title to Bran when he returned. Yes, she likes being in charge (hell, who doesn't?) but I feel Arya's accusations this time were all over the place.

Leadership 101:  Don't repeat your senior leader's intent as theirs alone.  Take ownership of it, make it YOUR intent, too.  When she said "He's down there because that is what he thinks is right" (paraphrased), that was chickenshit of her, She should have said, "Jon is in Dragonstone for the good of our realm, all of us.  I am here to support him while he is away.  I'll help you in any way I can, but Jon is our king."

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4 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Which part of it can't you see? The inconsistency in Sansa's character? 

Legit everything you said

 

alos Sandra?

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1 minute ago, Pandean said:

Legit everything you said

 

alos Sandra?

Well then we are seeing very different shows. Sandra is the name us book readers call showSansa.

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