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Risto

Discussing Sansa XXXI: The plot thickens...

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7 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Leadership 101:  Don't repeat your senior leader's intent as theirs alone.  Take ownership of it, make it YOUR intent, too.  When she said "He's down there because that is what he thinks is right" (paraphrased), that was chickenshit of her, She should have said, "Jon is in Dragonstone for the good of our realm, all of us.  I am here to support him while he is away.  I'll help you in any way I can, but Jon is our king."

But Jon chose to go even though everyone, including the Lords in the room, disagreed with his decision. He should be the one to answer for it.

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Just now, Alayne's Shadow. said:

But Jon chose to go even though everyone, including the Lords in the room, disagreed with his decision. He should be the one to answer for it.

All the more reason Sansa has to be fully behind him publicly.  She's operationally his second in command.  He needs her full public support, not just lip service and "Yeah, he's the king and he thinks what he's doing is the right thing."

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11 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Well then we are seeing very different shows. Sandra is the name us book readers call showSansa.

We may be. Or we may be processing it different.

I read the books. Multiple times. Never heard of this Sandra business.

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2 minutes ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

But Jon chose to go even though everyone, including the Lords in the room, disagreed with his decision. He should be the one to answer for it.

Jon made the choice to go and left Sansa in charge and according to Glover and Royce she's doing a good job of ruling in Jon's stead. That should suffice instead they are talking about mutiny, which is what is perplexing. What Royce said was treason punishable by death and Arya had the right of it. It's just how and when she delivered it was royally mucked up. Now if they showed chaos and mayhem at WF with an absentee king, they may have the right to complain. But that's not what they are showing. Are we supposed to infer that they assembled to talk about Bran's vision of the NK and the army of the dead and that's why Glover and Royce are all frantic and talking about replacing Jon? If so, their fear of this imminent threat is understandable although I don't know how they expect Sansa to lead them in this war.

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3 minutes ago, Pandean said:

We may be. Or we may be processing it different.

I read the books. Multiple times. Never heard of this Sandra business.

Oh dear. Sandra is not a character in the books. It's a name some book fans call ShowSansa on this site to distinguish the character from BookSansa.

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3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Oh dear. Sandra is not a character in the books. It's a name some book fans call ShowSansa on this site to distinguish the character from BookSansa.

No, I know Sandra is not a character in the books. I'm not an idiot. My gods. You just said "We book readers" and I'm clarifying I read the books. I should've put the other sentence in a new paragraph.

I didn't know how/why people started calling Sansa, Sandra. Like, is there a reason people say Sandra instead of Book!Sansa verses Show!Sansa like most other characters?

Did I miss something in the show or is it just a fan thing?

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3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

This hit me too. They forgot about it probably, why bother with some previous stories.

So is this the level LF is plotting on now? He has fallen low. That letter (if it's the one I think), can be easily ruled out as Cercei's threat to Robb instead of Sansa's authentic content. 

He's probably planning to ramp up the tension between Stark siblings first, and then Arya angrily whips up the letter and accuses Sansa of treason, because why let common sense get in the way of a stretched out plot line? 

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4 hours ago, Risto said:

I feel as all the secondary characters have been utterly destroyed this season. Just look at the Tarlys. Maesters behave like the information they are getting are completely irrelevant. Nothing has been fleshed out. I just wish we have more time to see Northern and Vale lords discussing Jon's absence and Sansa dealing with that. 

As for why Royce is following LF's orders, he is after all the Protector of the Vale given his status as guardian of SR. 

 

They did destroy most of the houses, in very clumsy ways. Sigh. Still, there are dragons, pretty costumes and action packed sequences so we'd keep watching it to the bitter end :D

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4 hours ago, Risto said:

Well, if we discard the chopping heads off and moaning about the room and nice things, one gets to the point. Not the most precise point as Arya's point seems to be "you want power if something happens to Jon" which is like saying "Sun will most likely rise in the east". The entire conversation could have been handled better. I just expected their conflict to be far more interesting than this. They are different and they grew up into two strong women. They deserve better than this :D 

Well, he has been gone for quite some time. People tend to be a bit restless when their King is missing indefinitely. I think there must be months since Jon left WF.

 

If something happens to Jon, it doesn't matter if Sansa wants power or not, she will be the next in line to be either Queen In the North or ruling Lady of Winterfell, or both; since Bran wants neither position, and it's no sin for her to recognize that.  I do think Sansa could have been more emphatic in upholding Jon's kingship; but she is still new at ruling/placating ornery lords.  Also, Sansa's usual modus operandi, until her final confrontation with Ramsay, was to appease and plead, not dictate.

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1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Jon made the choice to go and left Sansa in charge and according to Glover and Royce she's doing a good job of ruling in Jon's stead. That should suffice instead they are talking about mutiny, which is what is perplexing. What Royce said was treason punishable by death and Arya had the right of it. It's just how and when she delivered it was royally mucked up. Now if they showed chaos and mayhem at WF with an absentee king, they may have the right to complain. But that's not what they are showing. Are we supposed to infer that they assembled to talk about Bran's vision of the NK and the army of the dead and that's why Glover and Royce are all frantic and talking about replacing Jon? If so, their fear of this imminent threat is understandable although I don't know how they expect Sansa to lead them in this war.

The Vale is not part of the North, therefore Jon is not their King. It's not treason if his allegiance doesn't lie with Jon. He actually said, and I quote:

"The Knights of the Vale came North for you, Lady Stark." which is profoundly true. They didn't came for Jon Snow. They came for Sansa Stark. 

Them actually saying that perhaps they made the wrong choice of choosing Jon as a leader is not treason. Treason would have been if they said "We want to depose Jon and crown Sansa.", which none of them did. Them voicing concern for the North when Winter's here and the King is absent is normal. 

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4 hours ago, Risto said:

I feel as all the secondary characters have been utterly destroyed this season. Just look at the Tarlys. Maesters behave like the information they are getting are completely irrelevant. Nothing has been fleshed out. I just wish we have more time to see Northern and Vale lords discussing Jon's absence and Sansa dealing with that. 

As for why Royce is following LF's orders, he is after all the Protector of the Vale given his status as guardian of SR. 

 

Yeah, it seems that without GRRMs writing, the show producers are lost at sea. I know that GRRM is supposed to be advising them about overall plot development, but it feels like has taken a hiatus. Possibly permanent. This episode was still very entertaining, but a lot of the dialogue was too simplistic, too straightforward.

I really liked Arya's character in earlier seasons, but the way she has been built up to become a super-assassin, unsurpassed single combat fighter, and a perfect mind-reader is just cringe-worthy at this point. The only thing she can do now is to fly out into outer space Superman style.

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8 hours ago, teej6 said:

In the leaked script for this episode, it does state that Sansa is tempted for a brief moment when Glover and Royce suggest she should be QITN and Arya picks up on it. In the final product this temptation is not seen on Sophie's face and Arya ends up looking like an idiot. 

That's what we should be discussing: the final product, not some outdated outlines. 

2017 Show Canon Sansa: 

"I'm not trying to undermine you" "This isn't an invitation, it's a trap" "I wish Jon were here." "I hope he comes back soon." "Jon is our king." "How can you even think such a horrible thing?"

Sansa is loyal to her family, she likes being in charge and feeling useful, that's not the same as being power hungry. 

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3 hours ago, teej6 said:

And I'm sorry I disagree with the Jon having been gone for awhile so mutiny is acceptable argument. Glover not too long ago swore to have Jon's back till the bitter end and all of a sudden he's like I made a mistake in not choosing you Sansa. 

Jon is a commander and he is missing for God knows how much. It is natural for lords to feel a bit abandoned and to search for stability where they can find it. Robb went South, so for many of them, this is history repeating. It is not unreasonable for them to say "Hey, you are here with us, thanks for that" And, Lord Royce said nothing but plain true.

2 hours ago, Illiterati said:

Leadership 101:  Don't repeat your senior leader's intent as theirs alone.  Take ownership of it, make it YOUR intent, too.  When she said "He's down there because that is what he thinks is right" (paraphrased), that was chickenshit of her, She should have said, "Jon is in Dragonstone for the good of our realm, all of us.  I am here to support him while he is away.  I'll help you in any way I can, but Jon is our king."

She said that Jon is the King. She can't do much here. She has no idea what he is up to, she didn't get any news. Simply, Sansa is in dark as any of them.

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Just now, Risto said:

Jon is a commander and he is missing for God knows how much. It is natural for lords to feel a bit abandoned and to search for stability where they can find it. Robb went South, so for many of them, this is history repeating. It is not unreasonable for them to say "Hey, you are here with us, thanks for that" And, Lord Royce said nothing but plain true.

She said that Jon is the King. She can't do much here. She has no idea what he is up to, she didn't get any news. Simply, Sansa is in dark as any of them.

My specific quarrel is with her saying "He's doing what he thinks is right."  Mind you, it is in character for Sansa to say exactly that, I'm just looking at it as more of a leadership lesson.

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2 hours ago, teej6 said:

Jon made the choice to go and left Sansa in charge and according to Glover and Royce she's doing a good job of ruling in Jon's stead. That should suffice instead they are talking about mutiny, which is what is perplexing. What Royce said was treason punishable by death and Arya had the right of it. It's just how and when she delivered it was royally mucked up. Now if they showed chaos and mayhem at WF with an absentee king, they may have the right to complain. But that's not what they are showing. Are we supposed to infer that they assembled to talk about Bran's vision of the NK and the army of the dead and that's why Glover and Royce are all frantic and talking about replacing Jon? If so, their fear of this imminent threat is understandable although I don't know how they expect Sansa to lead them in this war.

What Royce said is true. They did come because their lord commanded them to save his cousin. They came because of Sansa. So, it is not a treason as much as stating the obvious.

38 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

If something happens to Jon, it doesn't matter if Sansa wants power or not, she will be the next in line to be either Queen In the North or ruling Lady of Winterfell, or both; since Bran wants neither position, and it's no sin for her to recognize that.  I do think Sansa could have been more emphatic in upholding Jon's kingship; but she is still new at ruling/placating ornery lords.  Also, Sansa's usual modus operandi, until her final confrontation with Ramsay, was to appease and plead, not dictate.

Which is why entire exchange reeks of bad writing. The problem is that Arya literally accused Sansa of wanting to step up in the worst case scenario. Which is ridiculous as it is natural for her to do it. Is there anyone who would oppose Sansa if something happens to Jon? Simply, the dialogue doesn't fit the characters or their current status.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Newstar said:

I think the writing implied that Arya was correct that Sansa was hoping that Jon wouldn't come back so that she could rule without him and get the power she wants (even if she felt bad for feeling that way), because Sansa when called on it couldn't deny it. They weren't just talking about Sansa contemplating the possibility that Jon may die, since Sansa characterized Arya's suggestion as a "horrible thing"; Arya was talking about Sansa--albeit secretly and guiltily--wanting Jon to die so that she could get Winterfell.

It's nice to get a reminder that Arya has always cared about Jon more than Sansa ever did or will and is outraged that Sansa would ever hope for Jon's death, even guiltily, because it would clear the way for her rule. Watching her fiercely defend Jon and get angry at Sansa for failing to do so feels more like Book Arya.

Yep. People are forgetting that Arya is a walking lie detector too and can easily see through Sansa

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31 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

That's what we should be discussing: the final product, not some outdated outlines. 

2017 Show Canon Sansa: 

"I wish Jon were here." "I hope he comes back soon. "Jon is our king." "How can you even think such a horrible thing?"

Sansa is loyal to her family, she likes being in charge and feeling useful, that's not the same as being power hungry. 

Meh, to me it just looks like she was saying those things because it is the right thing to say at the moment, not because she believes in them. I cannot imagine even Jofferey in that situation saying, yes please give me power in front of everyone. A person wanting power will be like - "No, no, Jon is the king" to people's face while secretly doing everything to retain the power

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14 minutes ago, Banjo said:

Meh, to me it just looks like she was saying those things because it is the right thing to say at the moment, not because she believes in them. I cannot imagine even Jofferey in that situation saying, yes please give me power in front of everyone. A person wanting power will be like - "No, no, Jon is the king" to people's face while secretly doing everything to retain the power

I read her language the same way you did.  Sansa wants to be important, that's just who she is.  And she learned how to get there from the worst possible tutor.

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27 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Some people are playing the double standard now : they are defending Arya for trying to dehead the lords of the north but when Sansa said that in Ep1 they started talking about a "betrayal" :D

I'm not part of the group agreeing with Arya but what you said doesn't make any sense.

Sansa wanted to take the lands away from children of the rebel lords. Alys Karstark/Ned Umber. Both Sansa and Jon agreed that the traitors(Smalljon, Harold) needed to pay with their lives. The double standard would only be applicable if Arya wanted to punish Robett Glover's granddaughter.

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1 hour ago, Banjo said:

Meh, to me it just looks like she was saying those things because it is the right thing to say at the moment, not because she believes in them. I cannot imagine even Jofferey in that situation saying, yes please give me power in front of everyone. A person wanting power will be like - "No, no, Jon is the king" to people's face while secretly doing everything to retain the power

Like what? what secret plan does she have to retain the power?

She is busy preparing Winterfell for the war to come and building up grain stores for refugees.

 

1 hour ago, Illiterati said:

I read her language the same way you did.  Sansa wants to be important, that's just who she is.  And she learned how to get there from the worst possible tutor.

Sansa is lady of Winterfell and lady regent of the North. so she doesn't need to get there, she is already one of the most important people in Westeros.

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