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Risto

Discussing Sansa XXXI: The plot thickens...

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4 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

That's what we should be discussing: the final product, not some outdated outlines. 

2017 Show Canon Sansa: 

"I'm not trying to undermine you" "This isn't an invitation, it's a trap" "I wish Jon were here." "I hope he comes back soon." "Jon is our king." "How can you even think such a horrible thing?"

Sansa is loyal to her family, she likes being in charge and feeling useful, that's not the same as being power hungry. 

I can't see the whole Sansa-is-Power-Hungry and doesn't care about her family thing. Like I literally can't. Sometimes I wonder if I'm watching a different show.

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Based on previous GRRM comments, I've long suspected that Sansa will die before the end of the series.  She's always been narcissistic and selfish and her time with Cersei and Littlefinger will turn her into a "player".  Which isn't the Stark way.  I still wonder if Bran's cold and emotionless reunion with her is because he knows something about her (he was a tad warmer greeting Arya).

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17 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Based on previous GRRM comments, I've long suspected that Sansa will die before the end of the series.  She's always been narcissistic and selfish and her time with Cersei and Littlefinger will turn her into a "player".  Which isn't the Stark way.  I still wonder if Bran's cold and emotionless reunion with her is because he knows something about her (he was a tad warmer greeting Arya).

There is nothing wrong with being a player. if Ned was a good player his family wouldn't have suffered this much.

She can use her skills to protect her family from the likes of Cersei and LF.

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2 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

There is nothing wrong with being a player. if Ned was a good player his family wouldn't have suffered this much.

She can use her skills to protect her family from the likes of Cersei and LF.

Didn't work out well for Catelyn and I'll wager it won't work out well for any of the other political players by the series end.

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31 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Based on previous GRRM comments, I've long suspected that Sansa will die before the end of the series.  She's always been narcissistic and selfish and her time with Cersei and Littlefinger will turn her into a "player".  Which isn't the Stark way.  I still wonder if Bran's cold and emotionless reunion with her is because he knows something about her (he was a tad warmer greeting Arya).

How the hell is she narcissistic and selfish?

In Season 1 she was a sheltered highborn girl who naively thought that life was a song.

If anything, Sansa is very very compassionate. She has yet to do anything to prove she is disloyal to her family; her main goal was the retake Winterfell and rebuild her family, she is trying to protect her family, she was so happy when Bran and Arya came back.

How is any of that narcissistic and selfish?

Sansa was a bratty sheltered naive 13 year old. She is now 19 and very very different. She's cautious, worldly, ambitious, compassionate, and can be ruthless to her enemies. She isn't the same character as she was in season 1.

And I think she's going to survive. But that's just me.

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3 minutes ago, Pandean said:

How the hell is she narcissistic and selfish?

In Season 1 she was a sheltered highborn girl who naively thought that life was a song.

If anything, Sansa is very very compassionate. She has yet to do anything to prove she is disloyal to her family; her main goal was the retake Winterfell and rebuild her family, she is trying to protect her family, she was so happy when Bran and Arya came back.

How is any of that narcissistic and selfish?

Sansa was a bratty sheltered naive 13 year old. She is now 19 and very very different. She's cautious, worldly, ambitious, compassionate, and can be ruthless to her enemies. She isn't the same character as she was in season 1.

And I think she's going to survive. But that's just me.

I'm not just talking about her TV character.  They have made her TV character a tad more sympathetic, mainly because they removed the fact she ran to Cersei to tell her of Eddard's plan and then married her off to Bolton.  But it's clear that she learned an awful lot from Cersei and Littlefinger and I think Arya is spot on with her analysis.

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8 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I'm not just talking about her TV character.  They have made her TV character a tad more sympathetic, mainly because they removed the fact she ran to Cersei to tell her of Eddard's plan and then married her off to Bolton.  But it's clear that she learned an awful lot from Cersei and Littlefinger and I think Arya is spot on with her analysis.

I don't get why people talk about Sansa betraying Ned. All she knew was that Ned wanted her and Arya to leave. According to what I read, it stated that she thought Ned and Cersei fought and that Sansa thought if she talked to Cersei then she could make it better. She didn't know what Cersei was then. She was privy to what was really going on. She was 11. I really don't see it as a bad thing at all.

 

Of course Sansa would want to rule if Jon died. If Jon died, she is the person next in line. Sansa is ambitious. But that doesn't mean she wants to overthrow Jon, that she 'likes pretty things' and people kissing up to her, all of that stuff Arya said. Sansa is Lady of Winterfell. She has a duty. She is good at it. There's nothing wrong with that, or liking when people like her, or hell, liking pretty things.

Arya may be able to read lies (still not really sure though since she never really finished her training and they never really showed how she progressed in that) but she isn't a mind-reader. Sansa didn't even make a statement that could be considered a truth or lie. "Why are you saying such horrible things?" isn't a truth or a lie. 

IDK. I'm just quite confused over the way people treat her character like she's still the same from Season 1 or the first book or whatever.

But it's not like I'm going to convince anyone otherwise.

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I don't think it is a good idea to mix the tv/books at all.

Sansa on tv is the only Sansa that matters when discussing the tv series.

She's grown up in the series into a great character.

What I got from the interaction between Sansa/Arya is that Arya still holds a grudge from long ago and doesn't recognize that Sansa has matured.  Sansa is still growing but she's in no way been disloyal to her family on the show.

It was a good scene because Arya and Sansa didn't get along at all as children and bringing that back was good.  But, it was Arya all the way in the wrong in the scene which is fine.  The writers had a scene earlier that many on here complained about where Arya met with the Lannister soldiers.  Massie did such a great job showing Arya was still learning and growing imo.  She sat down nervous and thinking of them as the enemy but quickly saw that they were just soldiers.

In that same scene they also laid on a subtle theme about Arya not understanding the value of women like Sansa.  "Girls take care of their Papa's while boys just go off to fight."  I think she is still grasping that there is a great value in not fighting.....in being the boy with is dad on the boat.....in being the woman who makes a home......

Sansa's strengths are something Arya is still learning to appreciate as well as her letting go of childish squabbles and opinions.  Sophie did a great job in all the reunions scenes showing that she was truly affectionate and excited to see her siblings.  Her apology to Jon was heartfelt imo.

Not that Sansa doesn't have trust issues.

 

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8 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

I don't think it is a good idea to mix the tv/books at all.

Sansa on tv is the only Sansa that matters when discussing the tv series.

That's a good point.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

I don't think it is a good idea to mix the tv/books at all.

Sansa on tv is the only Sansa that matters when discussing the tv series.

She's grown up in the series into a great character.

What I got from the interaction between Sansa/Arya is that Arya still holds a grudge from long ago and doesn't recognize that Sansa has matured.  Sansa is still growing but she's in no way been disloyal to her family on the show.

It was a good scene because Arya and Sansa didn't get along at all as children and bringing that back was good.  But, it was Arya all the way in the wrong in the scene which is fine.  The writers had a scene earlier that many on here complained about where Arya met with the Lannister soldiers.  Massie did such a great job showing Arya was still learning and growing imo.  She sat down nervous and thinking of them as the enemy but quickly saw that they were just soldiers.

In that same scene they also laid on a subtle theme about Arya not understanding the value of women like Sansa.  "Girls take care of their Papa's while boys just go off to fight."  I think she is still grasping that there is a great value in not fighting.....in being the boy with is dad on the boat.....in being the woman who makes a home......

Sansa's strengths are something Arya is still learning to appreciate as well as her letting go of childish squabbles and opinions.  Sophie did a great job in all the reunions scenes showing that she was truly affectionate and excited to see her siblings.  Her apology to Jon was heartfelt imo.

Not that Sansa doesn't have trust issues.

 

I didnt interpret the scene that way at all. and your claim it was Arya all the way in the wrong is incorrect anyway. There were issues with both sisters here.

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I just think that Sansa is being not so subtly influenced by LF, and a part of her is tempted by the power- she was powerless and abused for so long, she shields herself in the Lady of Winterfell cloak, plus, she learned from her fathers and brothers mistakes, so she's going to be far more scheming than Ned and Robb. But, ultimately, she will resist the temptation to betray Jon, even when urged by LF, and, should LFs crimes be revealed, execute him. 

*Given how little writers care about continuity, Bronze Yohn and Glover would suddenly start falling over themselves to point fingers at LF.

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11 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

I just think that Sansa is being not so subtly influenced by LF, and a part of her is tempted by the power- she was powerless and abused for so long, she shields herself in the Lady of Winterfell cloak, plus, she learned from her fathers and brothers mistakes, so she's going to be far more scheming than Ned and Robb. But, ultimately, she will resist the temptation to betray Jon, even when urged by LF, and, should LFs crimes be revealed, execute him. 

*Given how little writers care about continuity, Bronze Yohn and Glover would suddenly start falling over themselves to point fingers at LF.

And why the hell was Bronze Yohn conversing with LF anyway?

I'm not sure she's tempted to betrayed Jon, but I think she does like power but not in the whole abuse or power hungry way. She's ambitious, which isn't a bad thing. And I think she likes the idea of power after being powerless, but I don't think she wants power for power's sake, like some characters.

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1 minute ago, Pandean said:

And why the hell was Bronze Yohn conversing with LF anyway?

I'm not sure she's tempted to betrayed Jon, but I think she does like power but not in the whole abuse or power hungry way. She's ambitious, which isn't a bad thing. And I think she likes the idea of power after being powerless, but I don't think she wants power for power's sake, like some characters.

Given how LF says "Lady of Winterfell thank you" to the men he was speaking to, I'd say he has started talking to Vale and Northern lords as though he is her regent, possibly without her knowledge. That's an easy way to create more tension between Sansa and Arya, without Sansa even being aware. Right now, Arya is playing into his hands, but I can understand why she questions Sansa, they have always been different and I'm sure there is still some resentment on both their parts, she's just very confrontational about it, which is in her character. If she were a bit more diplomatic, they'd have had a better dialogue. But we need more tension before LF is outed and it's going to be ramped up with more season 1 style Sansa/Arya fights, no matter how stupid it looks, or how much their characterisation is butchered.

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53 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

I didnt interpret the scene that way at all. and your claim it was Arya all the way in the wrong is incorrect anyway. There were issues with both sisters here.

I didn't see anything wrong with anything Sansa did or said in the scene.  It was Arya accusing her without cause and nothing more than that.

What issue, shown on screen, did Sansa cause?

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6 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Didn't work out well for Catelyn and I'll wager it won't work out well for any of the other political players by the series end.

And what do you think Jon is? Jon is also a player. By being King in the North, he is de facto a political player. So, is he supposed to die? 

Being player isn't inherently a bad thing and we see that through Sansa. She uses her knowledge and skills to help the people and prepare them for the war to come. She is doing her part and she is doing a good job.

5 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

I'm not just talking about her TV character.  They have made her TV character a tad more sympathetic, mainly because they removed the fact she ran to Cersei to tell her of Eddard's plan and then married her off to Bolton.  But it's clear that she learned an awful lot from Cersei and Littlefinger and I think Arya is spot on with her analysis.

Again? What analysis? That, in case Jon dies, Sansa wants to be in charge?

https://media.giphy.com/media/YFKpMW4pcMVoI/giphy.gif

 

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20 minutes ago, Risto said:

Sansa never said that Ned Umber or Alys Karstark should be beheaded. She just spoke about giving the castles to loyalists. 

I actually think that's quite interesting.  Where Jon is pretty conservative about dealing with 'traitorous houses', Sansa seems more severe.  But when you put her next to Arya when they start dissenting against Jon, Sansa is the less extreme one.  So what they've essentially done is show that Sansa is some sort of moderate, at least out of those three.

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5 minutes ago, Pandean said:

My main question about this Arya/Sansa thing though is that, yeah, Arya did a bunch of FM training but she's not omnipotent. She's able to get things wrong. So, I'm going out on a ledge here and saying maybe her accusation is just that--an emotional accusation.

It looks a bit like they're setting Arya up for a fall.  She seems overconfident in her own abilities and doesn't know that Littlefinger is playing her (at least that seems to be how we're supposed to interpret it according to the inside the episode videos that the producers put on youtube).

I think what they really have is complementary attributes that even each other out if they work together.  Arya has a more direct sense of agency, whereas Sansa is able to manipulate the geopolitical situation.  Sooner or later if they team up they'll be better than Littlefinger at his own game.

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22 minutes ago, Kleia said:

It looks a bit like they're setting Arya up for a fall.  She seems overconfident in her own abilities and doesn't know that Littlefinger is playing her (at least that seems to be how we're supposed to interpret it according to the inside the episode videos that the producers put on youtube).

I think what they really have is complementary attributes that even each other out if they work together.  Arya has a more direct sense of agency, whereas Sansa is able to manipulate the geopolitical situation.  Sooner or later if they team up they'll be better than Littlefinger at his own game.

A fall as in she might die? Because I doubt she would die. I mean, I may be wrong...

 

And yeah, if they could work together that would be great. But, sisters man. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.

 

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Interesting thing glossed over here. Jon says he thought Arya was dead. Brienne told Sansa Arya was alive in Season 6. So why has Sansa not told Jon? Perhaps Jon looking for and finding Arya is something she sees as a threat to her influence. Jon and Arya have one mind, if she supports him then Sansa is left in the cold?

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1 hour ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Interesting thing glossed over here. Jon says he thought Arya was dead. Brienne told Sansa Arya was alive in Season 6. So why has Sansa not told Jon? Perhaps Jon looking for and finding Arya is something she sees as a threat to her influence. Jon and Arya have one mind, if she supports him then Sansa is left in the cold?

Brianne told her that as far as she knows Arya is alive. Let's not forget that the last time Brianne saw Arya was when Sandor took her away- that was pre Braavos, anything could've happened to Arya since. She was stabbed a few times by the Waif after all- it's only the sheer strength of plot armour that saved her. 

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