Discussing Sansa XXXI: The plot thickens...

[Illiterati]

2 hours ago, Pandean said:

No you're good. I've just been told (mainly by my mother) that I normally shouldn't say things I think because I'm offensive, uncultured, and uh yeah.

 

so I tend to apologize a lot if I think I said something dumb.

 

Yeah. And it's not like the South is formally led by the best ruler. TBH I was moreso speaking of a certain golden haired psychopath.

 

If you weren't a little offensive, you wouldn't belong in these forums!

[Pandean]

1 hour ago, Illiterati said:

If you weren't a little offensive, you wouldn't belong in these forums!

Truth!

[Lord Okra]

12 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

I doubt Arya knows about Robb beheading Karstark.  She was at Harrenhal and then with the BwoB during that time.  She showed up at the Twins immediately after Robb was killed and just knows it was the Freys who killed him.

How do you figure it was Robb beheading Karstark that got him killed?  It was because he didn't marry Frey's granddaughter.  Unless that had something to do with why Bolton conspired with the Lannister and Freys to betray Robb, but I always got the impression he did that for his own gain.

Everything else you said I think you were spot on.

It is like Pandean said...

Robb killed Karstark and lost a large part of his forces so he had to then expose himself to Frey.

[Pandean]

Something I just thought of:

 

While some fans as well as Arya claim Sansa is power hungry...it almost seems like Arya currently is more power hungry with the way she's acting toward other people, toward Sansa, it's almost like she relishes the fear since it gives her power...

I can't really see Sansa relishing fear or power--she is good at handling power. I don't thinking liking power is a bad thing. But I cannot for the life of me see the "Sansa is Power Hungry" argument.

 

[Tianzi]

If Sansa is power hungry, then the series is doing a very poor job in showing it.

She sleeps in the chambers of Lord and Lady Stark? Well, no shit Sherlock Arya, she is the current Lady Stark (by the show's current rules), and so who is suppose to sleep there? Spiders? She is in the position of authority now, she is supposed to act it, and not to apologise for existing.

Listening to people instead of wanting to behead them? N/c.

Acknowledging that some of them came there for her and not for Jon in the first place? (and saved their sorry asses, but I guess that's not going to be addressed in the show) That's called not being dumb.

Acknowledging that Jon might not come back and there has to be a back-up plan for that? Hasn't Jon himself stated that he went to Dragonstone aware of the risk that Daenerys might execute him?

The thing is that Arya is being annoying, unlikable and unreasonable. She isn't making any good points, yet the show plays it like she's hitting the bullseye about Sansa's supposed dark intentions. And the fact that this forced and atificial conflict is advancing by LF out-ninja-ing our supposed invincible shade assasin is making it a whole level dumber.

 

[Anarres]

48 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

She sleeps in the chambers of Lord and Lady Stark? Well, no shit Sherlock Arya, she is the current Lady Stark (by the show's current rules), and so who is suppose to sleep there? Spiders? She is in the position of authority now, she is supposed to act it, and not to apologise for existing.

Not to mention that, unless I remember incorrectly, Sansa's idea was for Jon to take the room.

[Lord Okra]

2 hours ago, Tianzi said:

If Sansa is power hungry, then the series is doing a very poor job in showing it.

She sleeps in the chambers of Lord and Lady Stark? Well, no shit Sherlock Arya, she is the current Lady Stark (by the show's current rules), and so who is suppose to sleep there? Spiders? She is in the position of authority now, she is supposed to act it, and not to apologise for existing.

Listening to people instead of wanting to behead them? N/c.

Acknowledging that some of them came there for her and not for Jon in the first place? (and saved their sorry asses, but I guess that's not going to be addressed in the show) That's called not being dumb.

Acknowledging that Jon might not come back and there has to be a back-up plan for that? Hasn't Jon himself stated that he went to Dragonstone aware of the risk that Daenerys might execute him?

The thing is that Arya is being annoying, unlikable and unreasonable. She isn't making any good points, yet the show plays it like she's hitting the bullseye about Sansa's supposed dark intentions. And the fact that this forced and atificial conflict is advancing by LF out-ninja-ing our supposed invincible shade assasin is making it a whole level dumber.

 

I don't think the show is missing it.  I think the Sansa haters are totally missing what is going on.

[Illiterati]

2 hours ago, Anarres said:

Not to mention that, unless I remember incorrectly, Sansa's idea was for Jon to take the room.

None of this matters to Arya, imo.  What matters is that LittleFinger thinks he sees an opening into which he can drive a wedge.

[Pandean]

1 minute ago, Lord Okra said:

I don't think the show is missing it.  I think the Sansa haters are totally missing what is going on.

I feel like Sansa is probably one of the most polarizing characters in GoT. But seriously, the amount of haters who jump on the littlest thing about her character...is getting ridiculous.

 

[Lord Okra]

8 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I feel like Sansa is probably one of the most polarizing characters in GoT. But seriously, the amount of haters who jump on the littlest thing about her character...is getting ridiculous.

 

Sansa's character has been great on the show.

The haters just hold on to S1 Sansa as if she hasn't changed one bit since then (much like they are portraying on the show Arya right now).

We'd have to ignore basically every conversation and thing Sansa has done the last two seasons in order to still think of Sansa as a spoiled brat who only wants power and is willing to betray her family to gain it.  That narrative isn't supported at all in the show.

[Pandean]

14 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Sansa's character has been great on the show.

The haters just hold on to S1 Sansa as if she hasn't changed one bit since then (much like they are portraying on the show Arya right now).

We'd have to ignore basically every conversation and thing Sansa has done the last two seasons in order to still think of Sansa as a spoiled brat who only wants power and is willing to betray her family to gain it.  That narrative isn't supported at all in the show.

Yet people still act like it is.

It's so infuriating.

Sansa probably has one of the best character arcs and development on the show and I hate when people don't even look at that because her derp she was a brat in season 1.

Like Arya wasn't.

It's also funny how most Sansa haters seem to really love Arya and think she can do no wrong.

Seriously though. 

[Illiterati]

8 minutes ago, Pandean said:

 

It's also funny how most Sansa haters seem to really love Arya and think she can do no wrong.

 

Yep, goes both ways.

I fall more in the OMG Arya camp, but not to a point (I hope) that blinds me to Sansa's redeeming attributes.

The Starks have become sort of a Fantastic Four, with each member getting a superpower that will combine for the win.  Bran gets greenseeing/warging, Jon gets leadership and fighting acumen (plus he's resurrected yo!), Arya gets supergirl ninja warrior, lie detector and face-change, and Sansa gets political savvy and family matriarch/nurturing mother.

[Ser Sinister]

I think they've done a disservice to both characters, but in my opinion, I think what they might have been trying to portray was that Sansa moved into Ned and Cat's room, and to Arya, that's a power grab. After all, they all had their own rooms, so maybe it's meant to imply that Sansa still has a little bit of that spoiled girl in her after all.

But the writing has been bad in general at Winterfell. Bran is basically non-existent, and given his capabilities, why hasn't anyone reached out to him in any fashion. Arya has always butted heads with Sansa, but the writing is over the top in trying to make that point. 

And Littlefinger is doing really obscure plotting, that hopefully, we get some explanation about before the end of the season. Sansa can't stand him, so I'm not sure what his endgame is. Splitting up the Stark girls? For what purpose?

Bottom line, Winterfell is a mess right now, but there's still two episodes left. So there's hope...right? 

[earth127]

Post in wrong thread

[Mladen]

3 hours ago, Tianzi said:

If Sansa is power hungry, then the series is doing a very poor job in showing it.

She sleeps in the chambers of Lord and Lady Stark? Well, no shit Sherlock Arya, she is the current Lady Stark (by the show's current rules), and so who is suppose to sleep there? Spiders? She is in the position of authority now, she is supposed to act it, and not to apologise for existing.

Listening to people instead of wanting to behead them? N/c.

Acknowledging that some of them came there for her and not for Jon in the first place? (and saved their sorry asses, but I guess that's not going to be addressed in the show) That's called not being dumb.

Acknowledging that Jon might not come back and there has to be a back-up plan for that? Hasn't Jon himself stated that he went to Dragonstone aware of the risk that Daenerys might execute him?

The thing is that Arya is being annoying, unlikable and unreasonable. She isn't making any good points, yet the show plays it like she's hitting the bullseye about Sansa's supposed dark intentions. And the fact that this forced and atificial conflict is advancing by LF out-ninja-ing our supposed invincible shade assasin is making it a whole level dumber.

I agree wholeheartedly. But the issue here is the ripple effect of Sansa abandoning the Eyrie and ofc, lacking real reason why sisters would confront. I feel as if Martin's outline clearly says that the sisters will clash in WF, but given the characters that they have built in TV show, there is no logical room for that. So, they have to resort to these shenanigans. The problem is, as you said, the show doesn't portray Sansa as power-hungry. She has the power, she wields it, yes she is even happy about it, but for the argument that she is some power-hungry, ambitious climber, there is nothing to point out. GoT is not the best in portraying internal thoughts so if Sansa had those thoughts, we would have known it.

I adore Arya, she is one of my favorite characters in the books and I feel that the two sisters are complementing each other rather nicely. But, this. This is just crazy. And not in the good way.

[Lord Okra]

2 minutes ago, Risto said:

I agree wholeheartedly. But the issue here is the ripple effect of Sansa abandoning the Eyrie and ofc, lacking real reason why sisters would confront. I feel as if Martin's outline clearly says that the sisters will clash in WF, but given the characters that they have built in TV show, there is no logical room for that. So, they have to resort to these shenanigans. The problem is, as you said, the show doesn't portray Sansa as power-hungry. She has the power, she wields it, yes she is even happy about it, but for the argument that she is some power-hungry, ambitious climber, there is nothing to point out. GoT is not the best in portraying internal thoughts so if Sansa had those thoughts, we would have known it.

I adore Arya, she is one of my favorite characters in the books and I feel that the two sisters are complementing each other rather nicely. But, this. This is just crazy. And not in the good way.

I think what is going on in the show is perfectly in line with the characters in the show.

Arya and Sansa in every scene they had were fussing with each other.  Way back in season 1....they made it perfectly clear that these two do not get along at all.

Then, Arya makes comments about Sansa several times throughout the series later on.  She needed to get back to this person and that person......oh, yeah....Sansa too I guess.  She has never let go of her grudge with Sansa.  The show did establish an Arya/Sansa dislike/grudge in the scenes they were together early (every single one of them).  And Arya continued to express her disapproval of Sansa throughout the series when they were apart (Ned defending Sansa to Arya/Arya reluctant to include Sansa with her other family).

Arya and Sansa didn't like each other in the show.

They are finally back together but Arya still holds this grudge (which is really in line with the character they have portrayed).  And, it all makes sense in the show universe.

They had a sibling rivalry/grudge which happens all the time.  They weren't close....they didn't "love" each other.  Now, they are back together and Arya is still influenced by her past dislike of Sansa.  Of course, in Arya's defense......she doesn't know anything about what Sansa has been through or who Sansa is today.

Drama's need conflict and this is the sibling conflict that is adding to the drama and providing a way for Sansa/Arya to finally come together.

Arya thinks Sansa is being manipulated by LF but, in the end, we are going to see that it is Sansa who has been manipulating LF since that scene with Brienne/Sansa/LF where Sansa said she could have him killed right now.

Sansa truly believes that "nobody can protect anyone."  So, she is doing her best to gather some power finally so that she can protect herself the only way she knows how (she isn't a trained assassin) which is by manipulating the people around her into positions that favor her.  She doesn't trust LF and that is why she only called for his help after Jon pushed forward on Winterfell.  Sansa wanted to do it without LF but she didn't get the support from the North like she thought she would so, in the end......she called on LF as a last resort.

Ever since then she has been using LF's obsession with her to maintain influence over the Knights of the Vale.  She's explained this to numerous people on the show repeatedly.  Sansa is using the tools and opportunities that present themselves to her.

If it plays out like they have set it up then Sansa will be able to secure the Vale without LF and that will open her up to offing him finally (something she'd done long ago if she didn't actually need his army).

Sansa learned to play the game by watching LF/Cersie and she is using what she learned to defeat her enemies.

[Anarres]

2 hours ago, Illiterati said:

None of this matters to Arya, imo.  What matters is that LittleFinger thinks he sees an opening into which he can drive a wedge.

Oh no doubt, and I don't think it's bad that Arya doesn't know or care. That's her character and that's fine.

But we as viewers get to see all sides of the story, so it's a little weird to see people adopt the limited viewpoint and information of an in-show character and base their views on it. To each his or her own of course.

[Ser Hyle]

On 8/15/2017 at 5:19 AM, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Interesting thing glossed over here. Jon says he thought Arya was dead. Brienne told Sansa Arya was alive in Season 6. So why has Sansa not told Jon? Perhaps Jon looking for and finding Arya is something she sees as a threat to her influence. Jon and Arya have one mind, if she supports him then Sansa is left in the cold?

Because nobody talks to anybody in this god damn series. It drives me crazy. If Arya wants to know more about LF and/or what LF is up to now, all she has to do is ask Bran. It's been made clear to her that Bran can see/know things about people. Maybe Bran's too fucked up on mushrooms to tell her anything useful, but it would only take one quick scene to demonstrate to the audience that you can't ask Bran for shit, you just get what he gives you.

[Lord Okra]

10 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

Because nobody talks to anybody in this god damn series. It drives me crazy. If Arya wants to know more about LF and/or what LF is up to now, all she has to do is ask Bran. It's been made clear to her that Bran can see/know things about people. Maybe Bran's too fucked up on mushrooms to tell her anything useful, but it would only take one quick scene to demonstrate to the audience that you can't ask Bran for shit, you just get what he gives you.

Bran has said several times that he can't control his powers and doesn't know how to use them yet.  He claims he needs to practice so he'll be ready for when the Night King comes.

Given that Bran has admitted he isn't all seeing......all knowing.....yet......I think the show has created a plausible scenario whereby Bran can't just expose every threat and every issue as needed....on demand.

You say that the show should demonstrate it......they did.....Bran basically flat out said as much (at least once but I believe he said it twice for those who missed it the first time).

[Ser Hyle]

On 8/15/2017 at 11:45 AM, Lord Okra said:

This was a line to show that Arya doesn't know what she's talking about.  Sansa didn't take the master bedroom.  Jon gave her the master bedroom over her own objections.

It was a great part of what they were building there in that scene which was Arya showing that she didn't know what was going on or what had happened.....like the fact that Sansa tried to get Jon to take her parents old room but Jon insisted that she have it as "Lady of WInterfell."

"I'm not a Stark" Jon said.

Sansa, "You are to me."

Here's another example of the communication issues that drive me crazy. Why didn't she just tell her this!? "Actually, Jon insisted I take this chamber. And by the way - what in it is nicer than what's in yours?"