Bonnot OG Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 Just saw that Richard Spencer is scheduled to speak at the University of Florida on September 12. Can these universities stop with the normalization of these neo nazi scumbags? Jesus christ it is infuriating that they think there is some educational value in hearing a fucking neo nazi talk. It isn't even a debate that could challenge his bigotry, it's literally him pushing his genocidal ideology and trying to indoctrinate people and gain a following. Just getting one person interested is a win for those scumbags, and these universities are allowing it to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 4 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said: At the very least I'd hope that everyone participating in the discussion would agree (no matter their view on how far Freedom of Speech should protect people), that if Nazi's ever again actually started exterminating people, it would be every moral human being's responsibility to do everything within their power to put a stop to it. And yes, this would include going out and fighting/killing aforementioned Nazis who are exterminating people. Because if you didn't, could you really justify to yourself that you did the right thing because "Violence is never the answer"? At the very least, if Nazis ever again started exterminating people, I would hope that would be a given. I'm already fat and old at 32, would much rather die as a redshirt than live as a brownshirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 8 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said: Just saw that Richard Spencer is scheduled to speak at the University of Florida on September 12. Can these universities stop with the normalization of these neo nazi scumbags? Hm. Didn't know he was coming to Gainesville. Gotta make some calls in the morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnot OG Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 28 minutes ago, dmc515 said: Hm. Didn't know he was coming to Gainesville. Gotta make some calls in the morning. It's not finalized, but the fact they are even debating to let him speak there, especially after what the fuck has happened since march is disgusting. 32 minutes ago, dmc515 said: At the very least, if Nazis ever again started exterminating people, I would hope that would be a given. I'm already fat and old at 32, would much rather die as a redshirt than live as a brownshirt. We'd like to stop that before letting that happen again. That's why some of us that are for violent action against neo nazis, ask when the non violence group would think violence is acceptable. All of us anti racists and anti fascists, whether we are for violent responses or non violent responses, know what they have done in the past and what their ideology entails. Not everyone can throw a punch, not everyone can take one, not every person can even get and protest even in a non violent manner since some people have social anxiety, depression etc. Everyone will protest in their own way, with violence to fight the fascists, peaceful demonstrations or the use of social media. I just don't like how the some in the non violence crowd tries to shit on those literally coming to blows with these scumbags and start with the false equivalences saying they are both the same. Fascists don't play by the rules, and they'll use the system to their advantage to gain power and then strip the system to follow in their ideology and stomp out the resistance when they have the power and the means to do so. They prey on the good intentions of others, specifically the free speech absolutists. They used the ACLU to carry out their attack in Charlottesville. They came armed with shields and weapons. It was never going to be a peaceful protest. And the ACLU, the epitome of free speech absolutism, fell on their face and fell for the neo nazis trap. And those neo nazis gave a glimpse of what they would do if in power and if people resisted them and protested their ideology. The only difference is, they would be armed with guns, have access to the military and police, and have the legal authority, by their rule of law, to kill protesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 3 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said: Actually, it's mostly when a large number of not very powerful people take to the pen and the microphone that the pen becomes most powerful. The reason non-violent action has been limited in the past is because it takes 100x more courage to be actively non-violent in the face of violence than to just meet violence with violence. And not many of us have that sort of courage. I hope I'm never tested in this way. A bullet can't stop a bullet, it's just 2 bullets flying past each other. And if you are going to get into the body count game then your cause is already lost. The WS&Ns would have preferred the driver to have been gunned down or beaten to a pulp before he caused anyone any harm. Because then their cause would be the victimised one. Who is "you" in this situation? If one is advocating for violence and oppression of a hate group, then isn't the person advocating for such violence and oppression as much not a decent person as those of the hate group? Wars can actually be won, ya know. Nazi germany was defeated, for example. With bullets. Nonviolent action is only useful in certain cases. Not everything can be won with some millennial posting a tweet. I think some of your group forgets that acknowledging counter violence might occur doesn't mean that we who are on the side of justice and the oppressed think no other means of opposition should or can be used. By all fucking means, use your pen if you're good enough with it (rhetorical you, not actually you, please please not you because I actually want the pen user to incite people to defend me and mine rather than to make even more complacent and complicit). In any case, the question of violence in these threads only arose when some of you became aghast at the idea that nazi's ought to have restricted rights to speech. Somehow between pointing out that incitement to commit violence and acts of genocide shouldn't be allowed to occur and that stopping it could produce violence and also that violent oppression might need to be met with violence turned into a bunch of people crying foul at the idea that the oppressed might respond to violence with violence. I find it incredibly unlikely that someone who is being violently oppressed will say to their savior and/or defender "thanks for writing that proclamation that I'm now free, but I can't really leave the camp since you had to pick up a gun to enforce that very proclamation." 3 hours ago, r'hllor's red lobster said: wow, yes of course. what an eye opener. if only there was, like, some kind of real and distinct political divide between the those calling for violent oppression and those who may be willing to resort to violence in the fight to oppose the violent oppressors because the supposed ideal of "rule of law" tends to take the side of oppressive faction.... but, i mean, you are totally correct. no real difference between these two factions. both are just fucking it up for the pacifists that have achieved so much Mmmhhmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 34 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said: Just saw that Richard Spencer is scheduled to speak at the University of Florida on September 12. Can these universities stop with the normalization of these neo nazi scumbags? Jesus christ it is infuriating that they think there is some educational value in hearing a fucking neo nazi talk. It isn't even a debate that could challenge his bigotry, it's literally him pushing his genocidal ideology and trying to indoctrinate people and gain a following. Just getting one person interested is a win for those scumbags, and these universities are allowing it to happen. Free speech blah blah blah free speech blah. We liberals really fucked up when we decided freedom of speech meant we need to protect the speech rights of terrorist groups that seek to recruit and incite violence and genocide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 8 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said: I just don't like how the some in the non violence crowd tries to shit on those literally coming to blows with these scumbags and start with the false equivalences saying they are both the same. Anyone who tries to say they're both the same deserves to be shit on. And as I said in the last thread, false equivalences is affording the white nationalists too much - it implies both sides have an actual argument. 10 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said: They used the ACLU to carry out their attack in Charlottesville. They came armed with shields and weapons. It was never going to be a peaceful protest. And the ACLU, the epitome of free speech absolutism, fell on their face and fell for the neo nazis trap. They didn't "use" the ACLU. The ACLU has been defending the klan, neo-nazis, terrorists, what have you for decades (see Nazis v. Skokie 1977). They have continued to defend the Klan after they terrorized the Civil Rights Movement and built up a body count of little girls. They have continued to defend the Klan after they fucking bombed the SPLC in 1983. The current situation was not going to dissuade the ACLU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 13 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said: Free speech blah blah blah free speech blah. We liberals really fucked up when we decided freedom of speech meant we need to protect the speech rights of terrorist groups that seek to recruit and incite violence and genocide. But incitement to violence isn't protected by free speech laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnot OG Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 4 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said: Free speech blah blah blah free speech blah. We liberals really fucked up when we decided freedom of speech meant we need to protect the speech rights of terrorist groups that seek to recruit and incite violence and genocide. Yea, the problem is many liberals, American liberals (I'm left of American liberals), do not differentiate between hate speech and free speech. They just think you have the right to say it. They also do not see genocidal ideologies and rhetoric spewed from that ideology as an act of violence. Nazis and white supremacists dehumanize people with their rhetoric. They try to strip them down to being subhuman. Turn them into the enemy by scapegoating them. Get the public to feel you are justified when you start to discriminate against them then persecute them. Then they won't question your end game of wiping them out. Every buzz word they use, every phrase they chant is for a purpose. The longer their ideology is allowed to breath and the more platforms they are given, the more it is normalized. The more it is normalized the bigger the threat it becomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnot OG Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 5 minutes ago, dmc515 said: Anyone who tries to say they're both the same deserves to be shit on. And as I said in the last thread, false equivalences is affording the white nationalists too much - it implies both sides have an actual argument. They didn't "use" the ACLU. The ACLU has been defending the klan, neo-nazis, terrorists, what have you for decades (see Nazis v. Skokie 1977). They have continued to defend the Klan after they terrorized the Civil Rights Movement and built up a body count of little girls. They have continued to defend the Klan after they fucking bombed the SPLC in 1983. The current situation was not going to dissuade the ACLU. Oh I know. I think ACLU is a counterproductive organization that has a lot of blood on their hands thanks to their free speech fetishism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 So who else gets banned when your new upheaval of free speech comes into law? Christians? Muslims? Feminists? Man Utd supporters? Hate speech and incitement to violence is difficult enough to define as it is, if you start banning people from talking because you don't like the ideology then where do you stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A True Kaniggit Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: So who else gets banned when your new upheaval of free speech comes into law? Christians? Muslims? Feminists? Man Utd supporters? Hate speech and incitement to violence is difficult enough to define as it is, if you start banning people from talking because you don't like the ideology then where do you stop? Well that's easy. No one else gets banned. Why would you think anyone else gets banned? You stop at the people who advocate the wholesale extermination of other human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnot OG Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 Yea, we are pretty clear on who we have issues with lol. Why the would we ban Christians, Muslims or Feminists? The people that want to ban them and kill them are the people we want to stop from having platforms and stop hiding behind freedom of speech. Like how much clearer do we have to be about what we have an issue with? We can't spell it out any more than we are, especially on a forum where typing the text is literally spelling it out. The country already considers Islamic extremism terrorism and does actually charge people for terroristic threats, but we do not charge neo nazis or white supremacists for preaching their ideologies even though they entail perpetuating violence against people of color. And in the case of nazism also against the lgbt community, the disabled, jews, muslims, and those that oppose them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 25 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: But incitement to violence isn't protected by free speech laws. Nazis held a rally in Charlottesville. Not sure how you can claim that incitement to violence isn't protected by free speech laws when nazis are given permits for rallies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 @dmc515 I'm located in Germany, although I've lived half my life in Switzerland. The main commonality I can see between the countries that have weak nationalist parties (btw. I think Poland is the wrong color there) is that those are the countries that used to be fascist some time in the last century. Countries whose national identity is wound up in the idea that they stood up to the fascists are more likely to actually support fascists now - e.g.formerly collaborationist Switzerland that asked Germany to have her Jews marked as such in her passports so they could be turned away at the border and who was the Nazi's main banker, but whose people still think to this day that it was the might of the powerful Swiss military that stopped Hitler from invading them. Or France, which conveniently forgets the existence of the Vichy régime and behaves as if every single French person had been in the Résistance. Or... But let's go through some of these countries with particularly strong and weak nationalist parties: Czech Republic: Weak nationalists, Holocaust denial illegal Finland: Strong nationalists, Holocaust denial legal France: Strong nationalists, Holocaust denial used to be legal until 1990 Germany: Weak nationalists, Holocaust denial illegal Hungary: Strong nationalists, Holocaust denial illegal, but criticism of the Hungarian state also illegal Netherlands: Strong nationalists, Holocaust denial legal, as long as children can't hear it Norway: Strong nationalists, Holocaust denial legal Poland: Weak nationalists (according to that map), promotion of totalitarian ideas illegal Spain: Weak nationalists, prohibits glorification of the Franco regime You know, I do kind of see a pattern there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 22 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said: Oh I know. I think ACLU is a counterproductive organization that has a lot of blood on their hands thanks to their free speech fetishism. Then stop depicting them as some unwitting group to violence. It is absolutely essential we have an interest group - that is demonstrably not solely beholden to rich motherfuckers - that will defend our right no matter what. Does that mean I agree with the ACLU? Nope, I think it's well passed time the DOJ classifies the Klan as a terrorist organization. But it's hard to even get that opinion out before people start saying I'm just as bad as the nazis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 20 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said: Well that's easy. No one else gets banned. Why would you think anyone else gets banned? You stop at the people who advocate the wholesale extermination of other human beings. Did everyone who marched that day want that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A True Kaniggit Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said: Did everyone who marched that day want that? Probably not. But we're not talking about everyone who marched that day are we? Nope, we are discussing the individuals who claim to be part of an ideology that desires the extermination of people they consider "sub-human". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 12 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said: @dmc515 I'm located in Germany, although I've lived half my life in Switzerland. ... Czech Republic: Weak nationalists, Holocaust denial illegal Finland: Strong nationalists, Holocaust denial legal France: Strong nationalists, Holocaust denial used to be legal until 1990 Germany: Weak nationalists, Holocaust denial illegal Hungary: Strong nationalists, Holocaust denial illegal, but criticism of the Hungarian state also illegal Netherlands: Strong nationalists, Holocaust denial legal, as long as children can't hear it Norway: Strong nationalists, Holocaust denial legal Poland: Weak nationalists (according to that map), promotion of totalitarian ideas illegal Spain: Weak nationalists, prohibits glorification of the Franco regime You know, I do kind of see a pattern there I'm sorry, I don't. You conveniently explained away the Swiss in an unconvincing manner, and the French. How exactly are the Swedish and Norway discernably different? How bout Spain and Portugal? Germany, Austria, and the Czechs have the strongest anti-Nazi laws for obvious reasons. It seems....undignified to claim they're the most immune to the rise of the right because of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A True Kaniggit Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 52 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: But incitement to violence isn't protected by free speech laws. What do you consider incitement to violence? I'll make this as simple as possible. 1) A person gets up on a platform and says, "Yes, I believe Jews/non-whites/homosexuals/(any other of the myriad of people who are not me) need to be killed". So this would count as incitement to violence, correct? And as such would not be protected under free speech laws. 2) A person gets ups on a platform and says, "I am a Nazi. I think what us Nazi's believe is correct. I'm going to try and recruit you to become a Nazi". You don't consider what person number 2 says as incitement to violence? Because I do. The term "Nazi" has been around for a long time. A person who claims to be a Nazi knows full well the endgame of that ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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