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purple-eyes

Can we officially call Rhaegar a jerk now?

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31 minutes ago, nymeria_2321 said:

theres a lot of Rheagar hate happening, but what I really want to know is why (assuming she was not kidnapped and being raped) did she not tell her family/Robert to try and avoid a war, or stop the war. How hard is it to say "guys I love him, and don't want to be with Robert, not being forced, please don't break with the mad king, please stop waging war and trying to kill Rheagar". ??? Maybe the reason for this is known and someone could enlighten me, but I have to assume we're talking over a year (to concieve and give birth) plus the time leading up to eloping and they kept their true feelings/actions/intentions to themselves that whole time ? Like wtf? 

This.

Boggles my mind. If Rhaegar wanted to over throw his dad, his mad burning the Starks could have helped him yet he hid out in his bachelor pad.  All those months! all those deaths!

And he seemingly had the kings guard on his side, which included a Martell and a Dayne, watching the ToJ for him and sitting out the war, Something more has to be going on.

Possibilities could include that Rhaegar kept it secret because his first wife and children were hostages and he was worried his father would kill them.

And perhaps he did try to get peace, perhaps he and lyanna did make contact. I'm trying to imagine Roberts reaction to that, if Robert would just throw that scroll out after pissing on it. It makes me curious about the fight between Robert and Rhaegar.

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1 hour ago, DarkBastard said:

There is sure a whole lot of ass-umtion going on in this thread.  No one knows the facts, and an annulment does not get approved without cause. If you read TWoIaF you'll remember Aerys said Rhaegar's chindren "smelled Dornish".  We know that Dornish people are very open sexually, what if the children born to Elia were not Rhaegar's? Perhaps she had a paramour at court...someone she loved before and continued to be with after the political marriage to Rhaegar.

For all the talk about his nobility and honor, to have him abandon his children and wife without cause doesn't make sense...but here are a bunch of folks choosing to condemn him here without any facts.  A wise man once said:  "Shut that shit DOWN".  There is a lot of information still to be revealed, patience folks!

I had an impression that Elia loved Rhaegar very much, though, he didn't love her back - was a political marriage, for duty.
Somehow I do not think Elia was that kind of woman. I think she was good, complete opposite of Oberyn...very gentle, feeble and kind, not fit to be royalty in the sense of image, but a good and dutyful wife. I doubt that she had a paramour.

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14 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Well, we know Rhaegar named Lyanna as his queen of love and beauty in front of his lawful wife and whole realm (all smile died). 

We know Elia almost died giving birth to his son but weeks after Aegon was born, Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna and annuled his marriage secretly.

We know Annulment means this marriage was never ever valid therefore Aegon and Rhaenys became bastards. 

All of these are facts. 

Do these facts sound like jerkish move? 

 

I believe the facts you are reciting merely skim across the surface of events, without knowing the full context.

It's possible that Rhaegar was a big jerk, but we just don't KNOW that for sure.

And I think that's the point quite a few people here are trying to make.

IF we ever get the full details, it's possible 99% of all people would agree with you on this, but I think unless and until that happens a lot of people are reserving judgment.

Consider this: There are MANY things in ASOIAF that we have later found out were NOT what they originally seemed to be. Indeed, ironically enough, Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna was one of the biggest, with many people wrongly believing he kidnapped and raped her.

There are quite a few other examples, too.  Another one off the top of my head was the way Jaime was perceived as a villainous, traitorous Kingslayer...until we heard the REST of the story, with the details he told Brienne in that bath.

Here's another: The story of Tyrion and Tysha.

Here's another:  The way Sandor was originally perceived, and the way he is perceived now, based in large part on a lot of background information we've been given.

So I think, in light of revelations like these that we have already seen, a lot of of people are reserving final judgment unless and until more complete information is known.  Yes, the 'facts" you recited are PART of the story, but they are NOT the whole story.

 

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9 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Your post is not that long and yes I did read it. 

Unfortunately so far there are facts to support Rhaegar is a jerk (divorce his wife shortly after she almost died giving him a son, left them at the mercy of mad king in stead of sending his ex-wife to her home, made his two elder children bastards) but there is no fact to support Elia is a jerk. 

Possibilities? Sure, tons of them we have. 

It is possible that Lyanna and Rhaegar tried to murder Elia and her children, they failed so they ran away. 

It is possible that Rhaegar used a sword to force high septon to annul his marriage. High septon did it to keep his head on his shoulder. 

It is possible that Rhaegar hold Elia and children on DS as hostage so that he can still have Dorne to help him although he already annuled his marriage with her. (thus also give chance to aerys to keep them as hostage)

Yet among so many equally ground-less possibilities you only raised the possibility that Elia cheated on her husband thus deserved to be abandoned. 

Why? 

Because you are biased. 

I'm biased by saying we should hold out judgment until we know the facts?

Based on your thought process, someone should be convicted and executed based on your speculation or feelings.  Then if you find out later there is a good explanation for what happened you will just say "oops" and move on?  

I truly don't care either way about Rhaegar as a character...I liked Dany most of the time (a few time the things she said and the way she acted got on my nerves) but this season I'm questioning her a bit more...a little bi-polar in my opinion.  I like Jon's character, he seems to be the most practical, fair, and level headed regardless of how he came into the world.  He is a not a product of lineage, he is what he has chosen to become.

My point is that there are so many unanswered questions and so much left out of the story with regard to Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Elia that we shouldn't rush to judgement.  

My only bias in favor of Rhaegar (if I have one at all) is the opinion of Barristan Selmy, a character I do admire and respect.  I also think of Rhaegar's "closest confidants" (Arthur Dayne and Jon Connington among them) who were not bad men.  If we are to take the word of these characters, or their loyalty and known friendship it is at least as acceptable to say "maybe there is more to the story" before saying Rhaegar is an asshole.

Again, I'm just saying the news we got last night is curious, and without any facts we should not judge either way.  That is being objective, not biased.  I don't know why you see that as unreasonable.  Did you have a personal experience with a man that has skewed your perspective?  Not being a smart ass, really asking if this is more personal for you for some reason.

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6 minutes ago, Cron said:

I believe the facts you are reciting merely skim across the surface of events, without knowing the full context.

It's possible that Rhaegar was a big jerk, but we just don't KNOW that for sure.

And I think that's the point quite a few people here are trying to make.

IF we ever get the full details, it's possible 99% of all people would agree with you on this, but I think unless and until that happens a lot of people are reserving judgment.

Consider this: There are MANY things in ASOIAF that we have later found out were NOT what they originally seemed to be. Indeed, ironically enough, Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna was one of the biggest, with many people wrongly believing he kidnapped and raped her.

There are quite a few other examples, too.  Another one off the top of my head was the way Jaime was perceived as a villainous, traitorous Kingslayer...until we heard the REST of the story, with the details he told Brienne in that bath.

Here's another: The story of Tyrion and Tysha.

Here's another:  The way Sandor was originally perceived, and the way he is perceived now, based in large part on a lot of background information we've been given.

So I think, in light of revelations like this that we have already seen, a lot of of people are reserving final judgment unless and until more complete informations.  Yes, the 'facts" you recited are PART of the story, but they are NOT the whole story.

 

Well said.

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11 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

His wife was loyal and dutiful to him. She gave him two children although she is always sickly and fragile. But Rhaegar humiliated her for Lyanna in front of the realm. 

And to make it more cruel, shortly after she almost died giving birth to his son, Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, annuled his marriage with her secretly (turned their two children into bastards) and disappeared for almost one year. He also took his first son's name Aegon and gave it to his new child with Lyanna since Aegon is a name for future king, not a bastard Waters boy.  As if the first little Aegon has never existed. Baby Aegon, first son of Rhaegar, a one year old boy, will be soon forgotten by everyone, because the only Aegon Targaryen who mattered and beloved is Jon Snow. The first Aegon is just a smashed bloody mess whom nobody cared. 

Did Elia and her brothers know her marriage was annuled before she died? 

We do not know.

But she and her children were abandoned by her ex-husband in DS to the mercy of Mad king, then were kept as hostage before they were brutally murdered. 

10000 Dornish army were sent to help Rhaegar still. Elia's uncle Prince Lewyn died fighting for Rhaegar. At the mean time his niece was already divorced by Rhaegar. 

I understand many people are so overjoyed to see Jon Snow is the rightful heir. They do not care what is the back story, only thing matters is that Jon Snow is legit and has a better claim to throne. Sure, he is Aragorn of Westeros, how come he be a bastard? 

But I wish Rhaegar good luck when he met Elia, Oberyn, Rhaenys waters and his nameless bastard baby son in wherever they go after death. 

Rhaegar and Lyanna had a great shinning love, yet somebody else paid for it with their lives. 

 

 

You are right. Rhaegar is the epitome of a selfish a.h. The back story is what makes this interesting and meaningful. Rhaegar is not meant to be seen as a hero. No one is all good or all evil in GOT, except perhaps Jon (good), and the army of the dead (pure evil).

Rhaegar is shown as being charismatic and admired by some, strong and poetic, handsome and not insane. Martin also shows that he is a spoiled, self important, princely brat who threw everything aside for his own desires and grandiose notions of his prophecised legacy. Rhaegar could have had Elia killed in a fit of selfishness, as many kings have done. It would have been cleaner. Yet Rhaegar had to act impulsively.

Jon is not responsible for the sins of his father. Jon is lovable and fans want him to be legitimate because he suffers as a bastard, yet this is what helps shape him into a decent person.

The future importance of his family existed because of Rhaegar's selfishness, the self-fulfilling prophecy although, one could argue that it was important anyway, because the long night was coming and the white walkers were returning. So the future of Westeros depends on these dragons and these new, young heroes being ready to fight. How are they ready to fight? They suffer and survive. Would Daenerys figured out how to hatch dragon eggs if she had been a princess in Kings Landing? Probably not. She figured it out in pure desperation. Would Jon be the compassionate, yet precise leader that he is if he had been raised a prince and then king in Kings Landing?  Jon knows how to fight the army of the dead because he was raised as a Stark in Winterfell and then as a man of the Nights Watch, places he never would have been if he had been raised in Kings Landing.

One of the things I notice about Game of Thrones is how well George R.R. Martin follows the long tested and used module (sorry I forget what it is called) where the king is born on a hill, raised by foster parents, a bunch of other things and then rises up to discover true identity and becomes a rightful king to restore order and sometimes even defeat evil. This module is present in literature and folklore throughout human history. It is a complicated formula that works for a stories popularity.

Ultimately the success of the heroes depends on the mess created by their parents before them.

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8 minutes ago, Gala said:

I had an impression that Elia loved Rhaegar very much, though, he didn't love her back - was a political marriage, for duty.
Somehow I do not think Elia was that kind of woman. I think she was good, complete opposite of Oberyn...very gentle, feeble and kind, not fit to be royalty in the sense of image, but a good and dutyful wife. I doubt that she had a paramour.

I agree with you, but it is possible.  My point is that we just don't know any of the facts yet and should not judge either way until we do.

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2 hours ago, redtree said:

So what, people can't voice dislike toward a character ? If it's an annulment then a negative feeling toward him is a rather expected. And no, Jamie is not my favorite character. What has Sansa done that made you put Rhaegar and Sansa in the same parallel i wonder ?

I went back to check if I forgot to put the smiley face to that, but I didn't, so why not see the joke in this? :dunno: 

the parallel is exactly what you said, being able to voice dislike for a character. :dunno: 

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3 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

I'm biased by saying we should hold out judgment until we know the facts?

Based on your thought process, someone should be convicted and executed based on your speculation or feelings.  Then if you find out later there is a good explanation for what happened you will just say "oops" and move on?  

I truly don't care either way about Rhaegar as a character...I liked Dany most of the time (a few time the things she said and the way she acted got on my nerves) but this season I'm questioning her a bit more...a little bi-polar in my opinion.  I like Jon's character, he seems to be the most practical, fair, and level headed regardless of how he came into the world.  He is a not a product of lineage, he is what he has chosen to become.

My point is that there are so many unanswered questions and so much left out of the story with regard to Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Elia that we shouldn't rush to judgement.  

My only bias in favor of Rhaegar (if I have one at all) is the opinion of Barristan Selmy, a character I do admire and respect.  I also think of Rhaegar's "closest confidants" (Arthur Dayne and Jon Connington among them) who were not bad men.  If we are to take the word of these characters, or their loyalty and known friendship it is at least as acceptable to say "maybe there is more to the story" before saying Rhaegar is an asshole.

Again, I'm just saying the news we got last night is curious, and without any facts we should not judge either way.  That is being objective, not biased.  I don't know why you see that as unreasonable.  Did you have a personal experience with a man that has skewed your perspective?  Not being a smart ass, really asking if this is more personal for you for some reason.

ironically the same Baristan Selmy you trusted on his words about Rhaegar told us Elia is a good and smart woman with a gentle heart. Yet you told us since Selmy said so on Rhaegar therefore you are in favor of him. So how about Elia? Double standard. 

And to make it more interesting, you are wondering the reason I judge Rhaegar is because I have personal experience (bad experience with a man blablabla). So I guess I can ask you same question, did you have some personal experience so that you have a better understanding on Rhaegar's eloping with true love and divorcing his dutiful wife? Plenty of men divorced their wives so that they can marry a younger woman. noy something new. 

Let me tell you, the true reason is because I have a lot of sympathy towards Elia and her two young children. Rhaenys was stabbed fifty times when she was dragged out of her father's bed and Aegon was smashed against the wall. Elia was raped and murdered in front of dead body of her child. All of this would not happen if Rhaegar and Lyanna did not do what they did. They enjoyed shinning love, sweet marriage, having honeymoon, making a saviour baby, while Elia and children being murdered and Dornish people being blackmilled and suffered.

And brave Rhaegar did not even bother (or dare) to tell people what he did with his marriage! 

 

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3 hours ago, Olligarchy said:

Hey @Iron Mother, have you considered using the Edit function to avoid multiposting? :P

 

i made a mistake.  if only we had the power to delete our own posts.

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Rhaegar might have believed that those children wasn't his children, that would be a very good reason for an annulment. 

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Seems like a fairly safe bet. I mean I've always assumed that the real Rhaegar would fall somewhere in between Robert's "Evil raper Rhaegar" and Barristan's "Glorious ruler Rhaegar".  

We still don't know what happened. We need more information to know for sure though. 

Let's wait and see. Right now we have second and third hand accounts. Any judgment I have will wait until Bran lays it all out.  

Or Howland. But mostly Bran. 

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The practices of Dorne are different to the Westerosi, they have no problem with open relationships. An annulment would not of affected Aegon becoming king after Rhaegar so I'm thinking Elia would of been okay with it. Thinking about it now it occurred to me that perhaps if Jon had been raised a prince in Kings Landing a marriage between him and Dany would most likely of been on the cards anyway as third born children they would been way down the line of succession - they may even of married for love?  - it's as if they were always meant to be?

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2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

ironically the same Baristan Selmy you trusted on his words about Rhaegar told us Elia is a good and smart woman with a gentle heart. Yet you told us since Selmy said so on Rhaegar therefore you are in favor of him. So how about Elia? Double standard. 

And to make it more interesting, you are wondering the reason I judge Rhaegar is because I have personal experience (bad experience with a man blablabla). So I guess I can ask you same question, did you have some personal experience so that you have a better understanding on Rhaegar's eloping with true love and divorcing his dutiful wife? Plenty of men divorced their wives so that they can marry a younger woman. noy something new. 

Let me tell you, the true reason is because I have a lot of sympathy towards Elia and her two young children. Rhaenys was stabbed fifty times when she was dragged out of her father's bed and Aegon was smashed against the wall. Elia was raped and murdered in front of dead body of her child. All of this would not happen if Rhaegar and Lyanna did not do what they did. They enjoyed shinning love, sweet marriage, having honeymoon, making a saviour baby, while Elia and children being murdered and Dornish people being blackmilled and suffered.

And brave Rhaegar did not even bother (or dare) to tell people what he did with his marriage! 

 

I am not defending Rhaegar or anything... but the same Selmy told us that that marriage was loveless... Rhaegar did it for duty and he was only fond of Elia and it seems he was nice to her, at least for a while. 

Talking about experiences... I have my own and being a woman I do sympathize Elia, but rather that she was married without love...because being in a marriage with the man who does not love you - is a torture for both - and that comes from my own experience. Spending years like that and knowing what I know now...I'd rather live alone than be in that situation again, fortunately, I have dealt with all that shit and started a new life.

I am just saying that there could be different points of view even in that situation. Anyway it doesn't excuse Rhaegar leaving Elia with kids in KL and not bothering that the was has started because of what he did. And the secrecy, too.
As for the Elia and kids death...I'd like also to ask Jaime on that account...he was a Kingsguard after all... Although, he killed the Mad King he didn't bother actually to protect the innocent, as if he didn't know what was coming. A nice and true knight indeed. 

By the way, both Rhaegar and Lyanna paid the price...I doubt that Lyanna was happy when she found out that her father and brother were killed because of her. Both Rhaegar and Lyanna are dead, too.

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6 hours ago, ummester said:

Rhaegar is a jerk and Lyanna is a home wrecker.

And what does it matter if Jon is a bastard or not? He made his peace with being Ned's bastard, I'm sure he could adjust to being Rhaegar's. And who cares about the Targ line of succession anymore? On top of all of this, if Ned knew R&L were married, he was a raging hypocrite for protecting the heir to a line he waged war against.

Boy do I disagree with this. He's not supposed to protect his nephew?

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Doesn't a high septum or King the only ones allowed to Annul a marriage to royalty? Gilly read about a maester giving an annulment, not a high septum. Im gonna spitball here and say WHAT IF..

The mad king allowed the annulment because that would void Rhaegars children's claim to the thrown. We already know the mad king wanted Visery to be his heir and he didn't trust Rhaegar. He prob had no idea Rhaegar wanted a third child and already had one on the way by Lyanna. If the KIng allowed it for these reasons it would make sense. Rhaegar's ex wife and children were already at Kings Landing and the King needed them there just in case the Dornish found out about the Annulment. He would need to keep the Dornish Loyal to the Crown and using Elia and the children would give him that. The king could make Visery heir to the 7k and disinherit Rhaegar.

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6 hours ago, Saitou Hajime said:

Rhaegar courts Lyanna in front of Elia, then weds Lyanna in Elia's home country. SOB has grapefruit-sized balls, I'll give him that.

Lol!

I have never been a fan of Rhaegar and started following the series long after R+L=J and that they were in love was established, so I never bought the whole King Bobby B version of Rhaegar, but still disliked him.  I think it is possible Elia consented to the annulment, and possible however very unlikely that Elia was a poor wife to Rhaegar.  Either way there is pretty much nothing that will convince me that Rhaegar was a good guy, so I've enjoyed this thread immensely.  But I also hold the opinion it is possible that Tysha wasn't as innocent as she is described by Tyrion on a very thin amount if circumspect evidence, so I won't sweat anyone trying to defend Rhaegar.  It is a testament to GRRM that he created characters so believable and enjoyable and debatable.

And @RhaenysB you totally have me in a box there as the first in line in the "Jaime Lannister is the best man in Westeros" club... so, sure, say whatever you'd like about Sansa, I won't complain lol.  In fact everyone should say what they want to say and not get too offended by others' opinions, these are fantasy characters afterall lol.

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10 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Lol!

I have never been a fan of Rhaegar and started following the series long after R+L=J and that they were in love was established, so I never bought the whole King Bobby B version of Rhaegar, but still disliked him.  I think it is possible Elia consented to the annulment, and possible however very unlikely that Elia was a poor wife to Rhaegar.  Either way there is pretty much nothing that will convince me that Rhaegar was a good guy, so I've enjoyed this thread immensely.  But I also hold the opinion it is possible that Tysha wasn't as innocent as she is described by Tyrion on a very thin amount if circumspect evidence, so I won't sweat anyone trying to defend Rhaegar.  It is a testament to GRRM that he created characters so believable and enjoyable and debatable.

And @RhaenysB you totally have me in a box there as the first in line in the "Jaime Lannister is the best man in Westeros" club... so, sure, say whatever you'd like about Sansa, I won't complain lol.  In fact everyone should say what they want to say and not get too offended by others' opinions, these are fantasy characters afterall lol.

Did you read the series after the show established R+L or just after it was a common internet topic everywhere? 

Elia was a good wife to Rhaegar and according to Barristan, he was very fond of her. It was just an arranged marriage and they didn't love each other with true love.

So the Tysha debate is still on too. Thank god I never ever go to Gen Asoiaf anymore. 

Yeah well, let's not open the Rhaegar vs Jaime debate. I'll always pick Rhaegar anyway. And I don't have a problem with people disliking Rhaegar, I was joking when I said we can call him a jerk if I get to call Sansa stuff too. Yeah, we should all like and dislike whoever we want and not take offense all the time. Took me a while to learn that but now I just take a breath and count to three when people say Drogo is a rapist psychopath and move on. Chillllz. 

I'm just waiting for Sam to forget this vital piece of information Gilly told him like he forgot about Stannis telling him there's dragonglass on dragonstone. And then Little Sam's first sentence can be Prince Reggar was annulled and secrectly married to another in Dorne, Papa! Aww. 

 

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