Jon Is No Longer Stark Or Snow: Implications For Many People

[Iron Mother]

Due to official marriage and annulment described by Gilly (in hilarious fashion, she calls him Rag-Ar)

Jon Snow is no longer Snow OR Stark.  He is 100% real Targaryen.  Do we even get the implications of this yet?  He is officially the Nephew of Daenerys, making her his Aunt.

When revealed, a few MEGA things will happen! 

1) Daenerys must acknowledge she is not the last dragon, and her claim to the throne is a step BELOW Jon!  Rhaegar was the successor behind Mad King Aerys.  The Living Son of Rhaegar would be the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, not Rhaegar's sister.  How will Daenerys approach this?

2) Sansa will be rightful heir to Winterfell/The North, assuming the North accepts females in that post now.  I don't see why they shouldn't.  Whole new dynamic up there!  How will The North approach this revelation that a woman will be ruling in Winterfell/The North?  How will the Stark family approach this?

3) Can Jon Snow even be King of the North anymore?  His "Kingship" currently hinges on him being SON OF NED STARK!

4) Cersei (on paper) would have to accept Robert did not kill the lineage/successor to the Iron Throne afterall..... making Robert's rule a REAL "usurper" not just a bad word but actually INVALID.  Rhaegar's heir is alive.  They thought the succession was extinguished but it isn't.

Looks like everyone has to bend the knee to Aejon Targaryen

[Styl7]

7 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Due to official marriage and annulment described by Gilly (in hilarious fashion, she calls him Rag-Ar)

Jon Snow is no longer Snow OR Stark.  He is 100% real Targaryen.  Do we even get the implications of this yet?  He is officially the Nephew of Daenerys, making her his Aunt.

When revealed, a few MEGA things will happen! 

1) Daenerys must acknowledge she is not the last dragon, and her claim to the throne is a step BELOW Jon!  Rhaegar was the successor behind Mad King Aerys.  The Living Son of Rhaegar would be the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, not Rhaegar's sister.  How will Daenerys approach this?

2) Sansa will be rightful heir to Winterfell/The North, assuming the North accepts females in that post now.  I don't see why they shouldn't.  Whole new dynamic up there!  How will The North approach this revelation that a woman will be ruling in Winterfell/The North?  How will the Stark family approach this?

3) Can Jon Snow even be King of the North anymore?  His "Kingship" currently hinges on him being SON OF NED STARK!

4) Cersei (on paper) would have to accept Robert did not kill the lineage/successor to the Iron Throne afterall..... making Robert's rule a REAL "usurper" not just a bad word but actually INVALID.  Rhaegar's heir is alive.  They thought the succession was extinguished but it isn't.

Looks like everyone has to bend the knee to Aejon Targaryen

1) He was never a Stark.. But he is a Targaryen. I think Daenerys will accept this... If Daenerys greatest lust was to take the Iron Throne, if Daenerys was Cersei she wouldn't let that "detail" be an obstacle.. If Daenerys wanted the throne, if the throne mattered at all, she could take it even with Jon having a better claim according to the tradition of Westeros. 

2) Bran is still alive..

3) Well being sone of Ned help the Lord to choose him

4) Robert killed the successor to the Iron Throne.. He killed Rhaegar.. Jon is Rhaegar's heir, but I don't know how that affect the fact that Robert is a Userper or not.. Viserys was alive after Robert took Kings Landing and Viserys was Aerys' heir. He is as much as a Userper as he used to be. Ofc Roberts rule was based on the right of conquest.. To me he is a Userper, he always was.. But he had the right of conquest

[Dragons 7th Eye]

Robert's claim was that of conquest. If the former royal line continued or not is irrelevant to that.

I don't think Jon will care for his claim. Besides, the loverbirds will be married anyway by then, by the looks of it. So it does not matter.

It looked like the Lords of the North and Vale were quite ready to accept Sansa already as the Lady of Winterfell. As far as we have seen, King Jon First of his name will have no more objections than Queen Daenarys of too many titles will.

[Lurid Jester]

8 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Looks like everyone has to bend the knee to Aejon Targaryen

I hope you're joking about the name. It would be a more plausible possibility if there had ever been anyone with that name before.  

[Grayce Hornwood]

It does have significant ramifications, if the truth were to be widespread. But Jon's main focus is on the Walkers at this point. I don't really see him dropping that cause to try and vie for the Iron Throne.

[xander_blackfyre]

1)  Technically was never a Stark.  Was a Snow, should have been a Sands as he was born in Dorne, but having him be a snow just part of the promise Ned made.  Jon is the reluctant King in the North, who says that he wants to claim all of Westeros once the fighting is done.  Especially if Dany wants it more than him, he may just step aside and let her have it or if the marriage happens they would rule together and make some baby dargons.

2)Bran is still alive and even if he does not want Lordship of Winterfell and the North I think that the lords of the North are fine with a woman ruling.  Lady Mormont rules Bear Island, Alys Karstark rules Karhold, so there is precedent for a woman ruling, and they seem to respect Lady Mormont opinion despite the fact that she is a women and like 11 or 12.  Also the northern lords and the men of the Vale were saying that maybe they should have made Sansa their leader in this past episode.

3)Actually when Lyanna Mormont gave her impassioned speech on behalf of Jon she said "I don't care if he is a bastard, Ned Stark's blood runs through his veins."  So you could say that is still technically true by way of his grandfather.

4)The usurping of the throne was more a consequence of the war than an aim, they only wanted two things really 1. Lyanna back 2. to survive and the only way to do that was to end Aerys reign, Robert may have come to be the face of the rebellion but he never wanted the throne, Jon Arynn was the one to raise his banners in rebellion first after Aerys demanded Robert and Ned's head, it was decided during the course of the war that Robert should be the one to claim the throne as he had blood ties to the Targaryens. 

[tugela]

10 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Due to official marriage and annulment described by Gilly (in hilarious fashion, she calls him Rag-Ar)

Jon Snow is no longer Snow OR Stark.  He is 100% real Targaryen.  Do we even get the implications of this yet?  He is officially the Nephew of Daenerys, making her his Aunt.

When revealed, a few MEGA things will happen! 

1) Daenerys must acknowledge she is not the last dragon, and her claim to the throne is a step BELOW Jon!  Rhaegar was the successor behind Mad King Aerys.  The Living Son of Rhaegar would be the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, not Rhaegar's sister.  How will Daenerys approach this?

2) Sansa will be rightful heir to Winterfell/The North, assuming the North accepts females in that post now.  I don't see why they shouldn't.  Whole new dynamic up there!  How will The North approach this revelation that a woman will be ruling in Winterfell/The North?  How will the Stark family approach this?

3) Can Jon Snow even be King of the North anymore?  His "Kingship" currently hinges on him being SON OF NED STARK!

4) Cersei (on paper) would have to accept Robert did not kill the lineage/successor to the Iron Throne afterall..... making Robert's rule a REAL "usurper" not just a bad word but actually INVALID.  Rhaegar's heir is alive.  They thought the succession was extinguished but it isn't.

Looks like everyone has to bend the knee to Aejon Targaryen

She did not say who he married though. It could have been someone else.

Marriages were presided over by Septons, not the Maesters, so this annulment is not official. In order to be official it would require the agreement of the king, otherwise Rhaegar would be committing treason and whatever he did would be invalid. There is no way the king would have agreed to something like that with a rebellion under way when he would have needed Dornish troops on his side.

Daenerys would say that the annulment was not legitimate and consequently the marriage was not legitimate. A bastard has no claim to the throne over a trueborn. So she would just ignore whatever the Maester wrote. And she can do that because she has armies to back her up.

In any case, it is just some notes made by an obscure Maester, and will not carry weight in the broader Westerosi society unless the senior nobles want it to.

The rightful heir to Winterfell is Bran. In any case, Sansa has been married twice now, so she would belong to other houses.

Jon was proclaimed king by acclamation, he does not lose the title because his parentage is not exactly as people thought, although it might encourage some to rebel against him. You can be sure that the Mormonts, Karstarks and Umbers will NOT rebel against him.

Robert took the crown by force of arms, so he was the real king. A title is nothing if you cannot hold it.

[RhaenysBee]

I just live for the behind the episode clip in which David Benioff tells us how Gendry and Jon like each other because they are both bastard sons of powerful men who were friends with each other. 

I mean Robert loooooved Rhaegar and the episode didn't just reveal that Jon is legitimate. 

[TyrionFan82]

1. I think Dany would be okay with this as long as she and Jon could produce a new Targaryen heir.

2. Bran is the rightful heir but for the time being isn't able to rule. Will he be? Probably but now, no. Sansa could rule w/Arya keeping things in order.

3. No, Jon can't rule (I suppose). He was a bastard but that didn't seem to matter. Regardless it's a moot point if he sits the IT.

4. Cersei wouldn't let this effect her, she'll fight to the bitter end.

[Samwell_Tarly]

11 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

1) Daenerys must acknowledge she is not the last dragon, and her claim to the throne is a step BELOW Jon!  Rhaegar was the successor behind Mad King Aerys.  The Living Son of Rhaegar would be the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, not Rhaegar's sister.  How will Daenerys approach this?

To be fair all Jons life he has had power thrust upon because hes been forced into a position of power. Hes never wanted it and never will. I personally think if he gets the throne offered to him he will decline.

11 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

2) Sansa will be rightful heir to Winterfell/The North, assuming the North accepts females in that post now.  I don't see why they shouldn't.  Whole new dynamic up there!  How will The North approach this revelation that a woman will be ruling in Winterfell/The North?  How will the Stark family approach this?

Again as said not a problem, a couple of female leaders of houses. Also Lord Manderly says we may have been wrong to choose Jon and should of choose Sansa. Quite obviously Bran doesnt and will never be Lord of Winterfell/Warden of the North.

11 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

3) Can Jon Snow even be King of the North anymore?  His "Kingship" currently hinges on him being SON OF NED STARK!

Could be an arguement valid for both here.

11 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

4) Cersei (on paper) would have to accept Robert did not kill the lineage/successor to the Iron Throne afterall..... making Robert's rule a REAL "usurper" not just a bad word but actually INVALID.  Rhaegar's heir is alive.  They thought the succession was extinguished but it isn't.

Robert technically did kill the sucessor to the IT, he killed Rhaegar Targaryen. He had to rid the Seven Kingdoms of Aerys and ultimately that meant the Iron Throne was free and he had the best claim to it due to his Targaryen Heritage. Im not sure Cersei would be actually bothered about what Robert was guilty of.

[Iron Mother]

So many are saying generally the same things.

Not STARK, the SON OF NED STARK.  There's a difference.

I never went into what Jon WANTS or WILL DO.  I said these are the implications that he is now not Ned Stark's child, a true Targaryen with a real marriage behind it, Daenerys' claim is challenged based on her ONLY real claim "I AM THE LAST TARGARYEN".  Her claim of "I am the daughter of the rightful king, the last child of that kind, is now incorrect.

Finally, The succession continues to Rhaegar's child when he dies.  So, when Robert kills Rhaegar, there is still a legitimate heir out there.  Why do you think they went through all the trouble to kill Rhaegar's KNOWN children?

[Wildling Queen]

12 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Jon Snow is no longer Snow OR Stark.  He is 100% real Targaryen.  Do we even get the implications of this yet?  He is officially the Nephew of Daenerys, making her his Aunt.

3) Can Jon Snow even be King of the North anymore?  His "Kingship" currently hinges on him being SON OF NED STARK!

Wouldn't being 100% Targaryen mean that both Jon's parents would have to be Targaryens? They weren't, Jon's mother was a Stark and Jon is her legitimate son (or so it seems right now). And as big a deal as has been made throughout this season of people in Westeros not trusting Dany because she was raised across the Narrow Sea and is a foreigner, wouldn't the fact that Jon Snow was born to a Stark and raised in the North and in Winterfell still make him trusted as a Stark and a Northman?

[Iron Mother]

1 hour ago, Wildling Queen said:

Wouldn't being 100% Targaryen mean that both Jon's parents would have to be Targaryens? They weren't, Jon's mother was a Stark and Jon is her legitimate son (or so it seems right now). And as big a deal as has been made throughout this season of people in Westeros not trusting Dany because she was raised across the Narrow Sea and is a foreigner, wouldn't the fact that Jon Snow was born to a Stark and raised in the North and in Winterfell still make him trusted as a Stark and a Northman?

100% Targaryen.  His parents were officially married, taking the last name of his father.

Whether or not he can still be King in the North when he is not Ned's son anymore is a question I posed originally.

If people had to choose between someone who lived in Westeros always versus a "foreigner" it's clear by what characters have said they would trust Jon over Daenerys.

[dala]

3 hours ago, tugela said:

Marriages were presided over by Septons, not the Maesters, so this annulment is not official. In order to be official it would require the agreement of the king, otherwise Rhaegar would be committing treason and whatever he did would be invalid. There is no way the king would have agreed to something like that with a rebellion under way when he would have needed Dornish troops on his side.

Daenerys would say that the annulment was not legitimate and consequently the marriage was not legitimate. A bastard has no claim to the throne over a trueborn. So she would just ignore whatever the Maester wrote. And she can do that because she has armies to back her up.

In any case, it is just some notes made by an obscure Maester, and will not carry weight in the broader Westerosi society unless the senior nobles want it to.

Maynard was High Septon, not an obsure maester. The High Septon is notable for his ability to......annul marriages. This makes the annulment and marriage both very credible and very official.

[Wildling Queen]

21 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

100% Targaryen.  His parents were officially married, taking the last name of his father.

Whether or not he can still be King in the North when he is not Ned's son anymore is a question I posed originally.

If people had to choose between someone who lived in Westeros always versus a "foreigner" it's clear by what characters have said they would trust Jon over Daenerys.

I understood the question. My post was meant to be reasons I think the answer is yes, Jon could still be KoN without being Ned's son. He still has Stark blood and he was raised in Winterfell with the Starks.

The only other Stark options would be Sansa (who I think is going to shoot herself in the foot eventually with help from Littlefinger), Arya (who doesn't seem to want the role), and Bran (who already said he can't even be lord of Winterfell now that he's the three-eyed raven). 

We'll see, but it seems likely to me that Jon's father isn't going to disqualify him as a Northerner or a part of the Stark family.

[Thor Odinson]

IMO, I believe the following will happen:

1) Daenerys will NOT be happy. I believe she will go full-on Mad Queen. Finding out that she's spent years of her life believing that the Seven Kingdoms were hers by right, only to find out that according to the very same criteria which she's used to justify her ambition, she's not the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, is going to drive her over the deep end. The show will ultimately be about Jon Snow, the union of Ice and Fire, having to defeat the extremes of both Ice and Fire as represented by the Night King and Daenerys (Each side will have their own dragon. Jon Snow on Rhaegal, the Night King on Viserion, and Daenerys on Drogon).

2) He'll lose the position of King in the North and rule will pass to Sansa. She will then propose marriage and Jon will regain his position as King in the North by being Sansa's husband. And in the process he'll gain the Stark name (An old First One tradition. Great houses with only female heirs pass on the name of the daughter and not her husband). In the end Jon will forge his own identity as Jon Stark, rather than as Jon Snow, the Bastard of Winterfell, or ________, the Targaryen Prince.

3) Jon will never sit the Iron Throne, which I suspect will be destroyed by the end of the story, either by Cersei or Daenerys, both of which will be dead by the end of the story. Instead, he'll rule the North with Sansa from Winterfell, and through their children Jon and Sansa will recreate the Winterfell of their childhood memories. Bran will disappear into the wilderness permanently to take up his role as the Three-Eyed Raven, while Arya will follow in the footsteps of Nymeria and sail west of Westeros to discover whatever new lands may be there.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

33 minutes ago, Thor Odinson said:

IMO, I believe the following will happen:

You may want that to happen, but surely you don't *believe* it will.

[Iron Mother]

49 minutes ago, Wildling Queen said:

I understood the question. My post was meant to be reasons I think the answer is yes, Jon could still be KoN without being Ned's son. He still has Stark blood and he was raised in Winterfell with the Starks.

The only other Stark options would be Sansa (who I think is going to shoot herself in the foot eventually with help from Littlefinger), Arya (who doesn't seem to want the role), and Bran (who already said he can't even be lord of Winterfell now that he's the three-eyed raven). 

We'll see, but it seems likely to me that Jon's father isn't going to disqualify him as a Northerner or a part of the Stark family.

Well we have seen how much they all hate Targaryens.... and if he's revealed to be one?

And Ned Stark is their personal "lineage figure" not Lyanna.  He was accepted by them as Ned's son regardless of being a bastard (a big leap anyway).  Add to that he is an authentic Targaryren and that's not a good concept for the North that now backs him as King.  Little Lyanna of Bear Island says "we know no King but whose name is STARK."

[Iron Mother]

36 minutes ago, Thor Odinson said:

2) He'll lose the position of King in the North and rule will pass to Sansa. She will then propose marriage and Jon will regain his position as King in the North by being Sansa's husband. And in the process he'll gain the Stark name (An old First One tradition. Great houses with only female heirs pass on the name of the daughter and not her husband). In the end Jon will forge his own identity as Jon Stark, rather than as Jon Snow, the Bastard of Winterfell, or ________, the Targaryen Prince.

Sansa marrying Jon is a real stretch.  For both of their characters.  And he wouldn't regain the Stark name, Winterfell would then be ruled by House Targaryen.  It goes by the male's name not the female.

[SansaJonRule]

59 minutes ago, Thor Odinson said:

IMO, I believe the following will happen:

1) Daenerys will NOT be happy. I believe she will go full-on Mad Queen. Finding out that she's spent years of her life believing that the Seven Kingdoms were hers by right, only to find out that according to the very same criteria which she's used to justify her ambition, she's not the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, is going to drive her over the deep end..

2) He'll lose the position of King in the North and rule will pass to Sansa. She will then propose marriage and Jon will regain his position as King in the North by being Sansa's husband. And in the process he'll gain the Stark name (An old First One tradition. Great houses with only female heirs pass on the name of the daughter and not her husband). In the end Jon will forge his own identity as Jon Stark, rather than as Jon Snow, the Bastard of Winterfell, or ________, the Targaryen Prince.

I agree that I Daenerys will not take this news lightly - assuming it is proven to everyone's satisfaction.  I can see it throwing a monkey wrench in the progress Dany and Jon have made toward understanding each so far.

As this is based on medieval Europe, it is quite possible that Jon would still have a legitimate claim as Lord of WF/King of the North as Ned's legitimate nephew.  It's clear that he does not want to be and has only accepted it because of the need to unite the north against the WW.  As for him not ever wanting to be in a position of leadership, he admitted to Commander Mormont that he did when asked.  He has obviously decided that leading isn't as easy and glorious and it's made out to be, and I see him happily handing it over to Sansa and staying on as commander in arms or something like that (if he doesn't marry Dany).

John and Sansa married??  Can I get a collective Ugh!?  Not saying it couldn't happen and wouldn't make sense; they are cousins.  But they grew up as brother and sister in a culture where siblings did not marry.

Wasn't Robert's claim to the IT by rule of conquest?