Bets On The Father of Cersei's Current Pregnancy?

[Carl Drogo]

22 minutes ago, Cron said:

Regarding your statement that I put in bold above?

Have you read the books?  Book-Cersei absolutely will, and does, use sex to get what she wants, even for relatively petty and minor things.

As I recall, Lancel and all 3 Kettleblack brothers had sex with her in exchange for stuff they did for her, at a bare minimum.

 

I have read the books and I find your speculation viable, but I do stand by my personal view that at this point she would consider the kind of thing she did with the Kettleblacks beneath her. If there were someone comparable, she would simply order them to do her bidding. A Lancel situation, where she was both sexually attracted and manipulating, is more possible, the show story simply does not provide a character at this point who comes to mind in this position. And as I said, I don't think that she would give herself to Euron at any rate before she has everything she wanted from him, both out of fear of him losing interest and for fear of him directly. Plus she sees that he is a vain, boastful and disrespectful man who is not beholden to her. There's no reason for her to do it, even if she felt attracted.

[Carl Drogo]

Cron, just to add to what I've said. Everyone always says Cersei only has one good thing going for her: Her love for her children. But in fact, it is two things that she has going for her. There is another thing that both the books and the show have firmly established: Her fight against male abuse and domination and the treatment of women as chattel. Hers is, whatever else it is, also a fight of female empowerment. Of course she is not fighting for other women but only for herself, but that fight is nevertheless established as a good thing both in the books and on the show. That is another reason she would never give in to someone like Euron, who could be expected to boast about it openly afterwards. That would diminish her and she knows it. ->Not gonna happen.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

12 hours ago, Gendry_Goldeneyes said:

personally i dont think shes pregnant at all and is just trying to manipulate jaime

Yes, I think the same. It's one way to be sure Jaime will protect her at all cost. 

[SansaJonRule]

5 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, if you're a huge Tyrion fan, maybe you'll like this.  I'm not convinced Tyrion has committed big blunders lately.

Personally, my plan to take Westeros would have been different from his, but they stuck to Tyrion's plan and it paid off in a big way at the Field of Fire 2, where Lannister and Tarly armies were crushed.

Sure, the dragons have been heavily under-utilized, but that's a plot device to "nerf" the dragons cuz they are so powerful and such a huge advantage that if they were used even half-decently the war between Dany and Cersei would be no contest.

Indeed, one of the greatest values of those dragons would be for reconnaissance, and they are not being used for that AT ALL.  They don't even have to fight, or be in any danger, they could fly high like a spy plane, so Dany would have KNOWN that Euron's fleet was coming up the coast, and so that Dany would have KNOWN the Lannisters had abandoned Casterly Rock and were moving on Highgarden.

And, clearly, they are being under-utilized in the quest for the wight, too.  Dany is sitting around Dragonstone, with three dragons doing nothing, while Jon and the others have gone north to try to find a wight and bring it back...on foot??  Wow, those dragons would be REALLY handy to fly recon to tell Jon "Hey, there's an army of 10,000 undead 3 miles to the west," or whatever.  Indeed, as far as we know, Dany is still skeptical herself that the WW/Other threat even exists.  So, uh, why doesn't she hop on Drogon, fly up there and take a look?  Might even wanna strafe  'em a few times with dragon fire to cross off a few thousand or so, who knows?

But no.  Dany sits at Dragonstone with her 3 dragons, doing nothing, while Jon and his crew travel north by ship, then WALK into the north to try to find a wight, on a quest which, realistically, would likely take MONTHS to complete (round trip), whereas Dany could have flown up there and back in a day or two.

Oh well.

Sigh.,   

Agree with you totally here. First off, while Tyrion has committed some blunders, I don't think they were huge. For one thing, Danny has Tyrion acting as a military commander when he is not. He is Dany's Hand and he has been a good one for the most part and he's plotting against someone who is - Jaime. It really wouldn't make sense for Jaime not to outsmart him.  I have always wondered what was Grey Worm doing during their initial assault planning - twiddling his thumbs?  It was he who shut Tyrion up when they were being beseiged by the masters in the pyramid in Mereen. He should have been the one who suggested using the dragons to search for Eurons fleet because they did know from Yara and Theon that he was out to get them.  Then again who'd  have thought he could have gotten what,  100 ships built so quickly?  (Big peeve of mine.)

And yes, WHY doesn't Dany just take a quick trip north so Dany could see the AotD for herself.  The show has already established that Drogon decided he likes Jon, so presumably taking him along for the ride wouldn't be a problem. Also,  it seems Drogon could sweep down and pick a wight or two out of the herd with little risk. I don't recall the WW having bows and arrows. 

I also think allowing Jorah to go was a mistake. She needs a military commander who knows Westeros!

I wonder if GRRM watches the show and cringes. 

[Cron]

1 hour ago, Carl Drogo said:

Cron, just to add to what I've said. Everyone always says Cersei only has one good thing going for her: Her love for her children. But in fact, it is two things that she has going for her. There is another thing that both the books and the show have firmly established: Her fight against male abuse and domination and the treatment of women as chattel. Hers is, whatever else it is, also a fight of female empowerment. Of course she is not fighting for other women but only for herself, but that fight is nevertheless established as a good thing both in the books and on the show. That is another reason she would never give in to someone like Euron, who could be expected to boast about it openly afterwards. That would diminish her and she knows it. ->Not gonna happen.

Interesting.  I agree with a LOT of what you wrote, but not your conclusion that she would not have sex with Euron.

Nearly every character in ASOIAF/GoT is "gray" in some sense, meaning somewhere between "pure good" and "pure evil," and nearly every character has something that can evoke sympathy, and/or empathy.  It is true that Cersei lives in a world where her gender tends to be a disadvantage, and that she's been treated poorly b/c of it, particularly by her own father, who married her off to Robert, and and wanted to marry her off to Lancel, and who, despite his (Tywin's) claim to the contrary, did treat and view Cersei differently than he treated and viewed Jaime.

Having said that...Cersei uses her sex as power and as a weapon. NO DOUBT.  In fact, she has told us that.  Remember way back in Season Two (I believe) when she flat out told Sansa something like "Your most powerful weapon is between your legs"?

And this is consistent with Cersei's behavior, in both the books and the show.  In the books, she has sex with multiple, if not numerous, men in order to get hings from them that she wants.  It's just true, as I've mentioned several times here, most notably in discussing her sexual flings with Lancel and ALL THREE Kettleblack brothers, as I recall.

Which raises an interesting question, in this regard.  Is Cersei any better than Shae, or Ros, or the Sailor's Wife??  From a moral standpoint? Look, I don't want to get all high and mighty judgmental of Cersei on this subject (although I WOULD judge her on other subjects, such as murders she's responsible for, sometimes against innocent people), but is Cersei NOT a "whore"???  If not, then what is the definition of "whore" we are using???  Honesty, I don't even mean the word as an insult to her, I'm using it in the technical sense.  Cersei lets guys have sex with her body in exchange for stuff, right??  Yes, absolutely she does, in books and show.  So HOW is she any better than Shae, or any number of other "whores" in the show???

But again, hey, I want to stress, I'm not "judging" Cersei on this, not really.  Is she any worse than Tyrion, who has been with innumerable whores in his life???  No, not at all, not in my mind, and I'm not judging Tyrion about that here, eitheri.

But with respect, I'm just not buying the theory that Cersei would not let Euron have sex with her body in exchange for what he can do for her.  Heck no, I don't buy that at ALL.  We know she has let guys have sex with her body for FAR less, in fact.

Finally, I've already addressed the issue of Euron keeping silent about it, but to summarize, I believe he could be incentivized to keep quiet, at least for a little while.  My goodness, Cersei has already said she will marry him when the war is done.  All he has to do is be patient, and stay quiet (as I assume she told him to do) for a little while, and then bam, he gets it all, he marries Cersei, has lots of sex with her, and gets to be king of the 7 kingdoms.  Plenty of incentive for him to keep it quiet for a while, I think.

[Cron]

2 hours ago, Carl Drogo said:

I have read the books and I find your speculation viable, but I do stand by my personal view that at this point she would consider the kind of thing she did with the Kettleblacks beneath her. If there were someone comparable, she would simply order them to do her bidding. A Lancel situation, where she was both sexually attracted and manipulating, is more possible, the show story simply does not provide a character at this point who comes to mind in this position. And as I said, I don't think that she would give herself to Euron at any rate before she has everything she wanted from him, both out of fear of him losing interest and for fear of him directly. Plus she sees that he is a vain, boastful and disrespectful man who is not beholden to her. There's no reason for her to do it, even if she felt attracted.

Well, Euron was in a position of power to give her something she needed (his navy).

Further, I've speculated it could have been "revenge sex," plain and simple, as "punishment" to Jaime for what Cersei sees as Jaime's betrayal of her.

Perhaps I'm wrong, I suppose, but to me, all the pieces fit together.  I'll be very surprised if we don't eventually find out that Jaime is not the father, and Euron IS.

[Cron]

55 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Agree with you totally here. First off, while Tyrion has committed some blunders, I don't think they were huge. For one thing, Danny has Tyrion acting as a military commander when he is not. He is Dany's Hand and he has been a good one for the most part and he's plotting against someone who is - Jaime. It really wouldn't make sense for Jaime not to outsmart him.  I have always wondered what was Grey Worm doing during their initial assault planning - twiddling his thumbs?  It was he who shut Tyrion up when they were being beseiged by the masters in the pyramid in Mereen. He should have been the one who suggested using the dragons to search for Eurons fleet because they did know from Yara and Theon that he was out to get them.  Then again who'd  have thought he could have gotten what,  100 ships built so quickly?  (Big peeve of mine.)

Fantastic points.  I myself have had discussions with other people where I took the position that you just said: Tyrion is NOT a military commander.  He's really smart, and could plot some general strategy, but he has almost NO experience in such matters.

And that's a great point about Euron's fleet, too.  My goodness, the reconnaissance I was talking about was not just random sweeps of the area.  As you say, they KNEW Euron was coming, b/c Yara and Theon TOLD them, and Euron STILL got the drop on them!

55 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

And yes, WHY doesn't Dany just take a quick trip north so Dany could see the AotD for herself.  The show has already established that Drogon decided he likes Jon, so presumably taking him along for the ride wouldn't be a problem. Also,  it seems Drogon could sweep down and pick a wight or two out of the herd with little risk. I don't recall the WW having bows and arrows. 

Yep.  The dragons fly FAR faster than any horse or ship, and as you say, there's no reason Dany and Jon could not have gone on Drogon together.  There and back in no time.  But, of course, what we're really discussing here is something that I and others (maybe including you) have known for a long time: The dragons are BY FAR the most powerful pieces on the game board, so much so that just about everything else is irrelevant.  I've known for a long time they would be "nerfed," and sure enough that's exactly what's happening.  Oh, well, it's still fun.

55 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

I also think allowing Jorah to go was a mistake. She needs a military commander who knows Westeros!

I wonder if GRRM watches the show and cringes. 

Ohhh, I think GRRM watches and enjoys it.  GRRM has said "the books are the books, and the show is the show" (or words to that effect, but I think that's a near-exact quote), which I take to mean he compartmentalizes the two in his mind, just as I do.  I love the books for what they are, and I love the show for what it is and what it does (some of which IS better than the books.  In fact, I've got a pretty lengthy thread in the General GoT section which asks the question if there's anything better on the show than in the books, and the answer is "yes, plenty," although on balance I prefer the books)

[Astromech]

Not sure if she is even pregnant, but if she is, I really hope we see another shadow baby. Maybe that is how Melisandre will die in Westeros, by sacrificing herself to corrupt the child. Hey, it could happen.

[LokisRaider]

18 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

You think D&D are not going to provide a scene if Euron and Cersei sleep together. Its definitely Jaimes. You think if Euron and Cersei had slept together, Jaime would be hearing it from Cersei, more than likely Euron would be torturing Jaime about how she loved a thumb in the bum.

I think that this season has shown they do not follow any character traits so yes D&D would have it be Eurons and they would just conveniently not bring it up until the plot demands it. That is all the show has done going on 2 seasons now. They have shown that they do not care to keep a coherent story and just put things out there when they feel like it needs to be because it would be better for "dramatic TV". Davos about Shireen, Dany about Varys, Bran about Littlefinger, Sansa about Littlefinger, Sam and Dragonglass and now about Jons parentage (just a couple off the top of my head, I know there is more).

  Do I personally think it is Euron? Nope. But do I think that D&D have the ability to make it him and say fuck it to plot and character? Absolutely. And people will praise it saying it is such an amazing twist too. I think that would be the worst part about it being praised for being something no one saw coming because it wouldn't make any sense. Now I'm just going off on if's and but's. Hopefully you are right and it is not Euron.

[Samwell_Tarly]

2 minutes ago, LokisRaider said:

I think that this season has shown they do not follow any character traits so yes D&D would have it be Eurons and they would just conveniently not bring it up until the plot demands it. That is all the show has done going on 2 seasons now. They have shown that they do not care to keep a coherent story and just put things out there when they feel like it needs to be because it would be better for "dramatic TV". Davos about Shireen, Dany about Varys, Bran about Littlefinger, Sansa about Littlefinger, Sam and Dragonglass and now about Jons parentage (just a couple off the top of my head, I know there is more).

I definitely agree Season 7 has shown a change in character develeopment or should i say undevelopment. Yeah I understand that the show is not running coherent story lines but I would expect to see Euron sleep with Cersei if the plot line come up she was pregnant or atleast some type hint/clues.

2 minutes ago, LokisRaider said:

  Do I personally think it is Euron? Nope. But do I think that D&D have the ability to make it him and say fuck it to plot and character? Absolutely. And people will praise it saying it is such an amazing twist too. I think that would be the worst part about it being praised for being something no one saw coming because it wouldn't make any sense. Now I'm just going off on if's and but's. Hopefully you are right and it is not Euron.

As you say I would not praise a plot line I didnt see coming one bit and see it as a massive twist,I would want some hints and clue to justify it. Im adamant  it is Jaime, but regardless of who is the father or not, shes not having a kid, she'll lose it or she'll be killed, the prophecy has been fulfilled.

[SansaJonRule]

1 hour ago, Cron said:

Fantastic points.  I myself have had discussions with other people where I took the position that you just said: Tyrion is NOT a military commander.  He's really smart, and could plot some general strategy, but he has almost NO experience in such matters.

And that's a great point about Euron's fleet, too.  My goodness, the reconnaissance I was talking about was not just random sweeps of the area.  As you say, they KNEW Euron was coming, b/c Yara and Theon TOLD them, and Euron STILL got the drop on them!

Yep.  The dragons fly FAR faster than any horse or ship, and as you say, there's no reason Dany and Jon could not have gone on Drogon together.  There and back in no time.  But, of course, what we're really discussing here is something that I and others (maybe including you) have known for a long time: The dragons are BY FAR the most powerful pieces on the game board, so much so that just about everything else is irrelevant.  I've known for a long time they would be "nerfed," and sure enough that's exactly what's happening.  Oh, well, it's still fun.

Ohhh, I think GRRM watches and enjoys it.  GRRM has said "the books are the books, and the show is the show" (or words to that effect, but I think that's a near-exact quote), which I take to mean he compartmentalizes the two in his mind, just as I do.  I love the books for what they are, and I love the show for what it is and what it does (some of which IS better than the books.  In fact, I've got a pretty lengthy thread in the General GoT section which asks the question if there's anything better on the show than in the books, and the answer is "yes, plenty," although on balance I prefer the books)

I can see why they are "nerfing" the dragons in order to equalize things for now, and also to avoid as much collateral damage as possible. Plus there is the factor of her advisors not wanting Dany to put herself in danger, but like we both said, it is D&D doing what is most convenient for the way they want the story to proceed. And yeah dragons are COOL. 

I can compartmentalize the books and the show, but this season I think they are making sacrifices because of the compressed time and just make things go the way they want and it irritates me. 

[Queen of Winter]

9 hours ago, storm.131 said:

I think Cersei giving birth to a dwarf would also tie in nicely with incest increasing the likelihood of particular genetic characteristics being passed on.

However, having just re-read the chapter when Cersei saw Maggy the Frog, I agree that all this will turn out to be menopause or a phantom pregnancy because Maggy's prophecy said she would have 3 children.  Since everything else she predicted has so far come true, it would be unlikely for her to end up having 4 children.

My thoughts exactly, it was the first thing that came to mind.

And I agree she won't have any additional living children. She could also have a stillborn child that was a dwarf. I'm really curious as to how this will all play out.....

[Meera of Tarth]

On ‎14‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 11:13 PM, Cron said:

I don't bet, but if I did, I'd bet Jaime is NOT the father.

My guess: Euron.

And when Jaime finds out, he's gonna go full Valonqar.

I'd prefer Jaime to go Valonqar for other reasons thhan this. twincest will son disappear! 

That would add nothing to the plot or the development  of the character. It would only mean than Jaime has always loved Cersei and now is killing her because she cheated on him? Well, that would be even destroy his character even more.

[Lurid Jester]

22 hours ago, Cron said:

Actually, yes, you're right, my strong memory is that the word Valonqar really means "little sibling," not necessarily "little brother."

(If I'm not mistaken, I think Aemon Targaryen confirmed it in the books)

And so, yes, the possibility of a female Valonqar exists.

Unfortunatley you're mixing Aemon's epiphany about the translation of the PtwP with valonqar. 

The prophecy of the valonqar is explicitly male. 

Quote

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

While valonqar could very well just mean younger sibling, in this instance we clearly get a gender in the form of "his hands".  

[Samwell_Tarly]

48 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Unfortunatley you're mixing Aemon's epiphany about the translation of the PtwP with valonqar. 

The prophecy of the valonqar is explicitly male. 

While valonqar could very well just mean younger sibling, in this instance we clearly get a gender in the form of "his hands".  

Deterring from the facts, it doesnt matter whether the ''valonqar'' gender actually translates to a male monkey strangling cersei, cos she tooks its last peanut. Valonqar is not in the show!

Whoever kills Cersei, she will be killed out of hatred, revenge or what ever else emotion they feel like killing her for. Killing her will not fulfil a prophecy in the Show cos there isn't one. 

[Lurid Jester]

24 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Deterring from the facts, it doesnt matter whether the ''valonqar'' gender actually translates to a male monkey strangling cersei, cos she tooks its last peanut. Valonqar is not in the show!

I don't think anyone is saying it is in the show.  We're (I am at least) using it as a way of illustrating the most likely progression of evens, both in the show and in the books. Jamie killing Cersie makes the most narrative sense and would arguably be the most gratifying.  It provides a very well structured story arc for both Jamie and Cersie.  They've practically painted a dotted line with an arrow pointing right at it.

Admittedly the pregnancy development adda a huge question mark that could screw things up. With the portion of the prophecy they left off the show.

But they've already screwed up portions of the prophecy they kept, namely that she would have three children.

By Cersies own words she has had four. 

So who knows?

I'm still holding on to the theory that Jamie kills Cersie, and then follows her shortly thereafter.  They came into the world together, and leave the world together. 

[Cron]

6 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

I can see why they are "nerfing" the dragons in order to equalize things for now, and also to avoid as much collateral damage as possible. Plus there is the factor of her advisors not wanting Dany to put herself in danger, but like we both said, it is D&D doing what is most convenient for the way they want the story to proceed. And yeah dragons are COOL. 

I can compartmentalize the books and the show, but this season I think they are making sacrifices because of the compressed time and just make things go the way they want and it irritates me. 

Well, I hear you, but despite some gripes I have, I'm loving this season.

My episode grades so far have been 9, 9, 9, 10 and 8.

What about you?

[Cron]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I'd prefer Jaime to go Valonqar for other reasons thhan this. twincest will son disappear! 

That would add nothing to the plot or the development  of the character. It would only mean than Jaime has always loved Cersei and now is killing her because she cheated on him? Well, that would be even destroy his character even more.

Well, I hear you, but that DOES seem to be the direction the show is going in with Jaime.

He seems really devoted to her this season, and as much in love as ever, near as I can tell.

Not saying I like it, but that's what it seems we're being shown.  I'm starting to think the books and show may diverge pretty dramatically on this subject.  In the books, it sure looked to me like Jaime was DONE with Cersei while he was still in the Riverlands (and threw that letter into the fire), but show-Jaime seems to be pretty thoroughly caught in her web.

And so, I think it's going to take some REALLY offensive and REALLY personal to Jaime in order to make him cross her off, and finding out he's not the father but Euron IS sounds to me like exactly the kind of thing that will "wake the Valonqar."

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Cron said:

Well, I hear you, but that DOES seem to be the direction the show is going in with Jaime.

He seems really devoted to her this season, and as much in love as ever, near as I can tell.

Not saying I like it, but that's what it seems we're being shown.  I'm starting to think the books and show may diverge pretty dramatically on this subject.  In the books, it sure looked to me like Jaime was DONE with Cersei while he was still in the Riverlands (and threw that letter into the fire), but show-Jaime seems to be pretty thoroughly caught in her web.

And so, I think it's going to take some REALLY offensive and REALLY personal to Jaime in order to make him cross her off, and finding out he's not the father but Euron IS sounds to me like exactly the kind of thing that will "wake the Valonqar."

but everyone is telling Jaime that he is not smart, Open a, Tyrion....these are subtle indications that he has to to process sooner or later. Plus, there is his relationship with Btienne, that has been several times juxtaposed with Cersei (even in the pruple wedding). And Cersei can't have slept with Euron, imI think. It would be a good twist if Euron and Cerseu had been together (since they are evil) but Jaime killing her for this reason doesn't contribute to his arc. They are just delaying the inevitable.

[Cron]

2 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Unfortunatley you're mixing Aemon's epiphany about the translation of the PtwP with valonqar. 

The prophecy of the valonqar is explicitly male. 

While valonqar could very well just mean younger sibling, in this instance we clearly get a gender in the form of "his hands".  

Mmmm...I've already been corrected on the first part, so I concede that point (Aemon was talking about The Prince Who was Promised, not Valonqar.  Fair enough.  Having said that, I do believe I've heard Valonqar means 'sibling," not "brother."

Beyond that, the male pronouns Maggy used do NOT prove the Valonqar is male, cuz (a) there are theories that Maggy herself misunderstands the word (which is not a stretch, for a variety of reasons), and (b) use of the male pronouns could simply be generic and gender neutral anyway (for example, when the word "mankind" refers to all of humanity not just men), and/or Maggy simply used the male pronouns cuz even IF she understood "Valonqar" means "sibling," she didn't know whether, in this case, it was a "little sister" or "little brother," so she just used the male pronouns as a sort of default.

But hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that the Valonqar is female.  Far from it.  I'm totally convinced it's Jaime.  TOTALLY convinced.