Cron Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 6 hours ago, NexivRed said: It was shown on the show as to control him. In the books it's also suggested she gets horny and he's a poor Jaime substitute. But that's the books. Show Cersei has never been written to be flirtatious or horny. She constantly talks to Jaime about "us" and almost seems repulsed by anyone else. Lancel is a Lannister so is just about bearable. Uh, yeah, I know she was having sex with Lancel to control him. My question is "How is the fact that Cersei was letting Lancel have sex with her body consistent with what I understand to be your belief that Cersei is 'devoted' to Jaime?" Regarding the rest: My operative philosophy while watching the show is that unless the show specifically contradicts something from the books, book-canon rules. Even for the show. This is b/c there could be numerous reasons that things were left out of the show that go way beyond raw speculation that the showrunners changed basic aspects of a character cuz that's what they liked, rather than just cuz they didn't have time to show it all on-screenl. 6 hours ago, NexivRed said: Right. And she's sensible enough not to invite that possibility. A legitimate child with Euron would make sense. Yes and yes. That's your perogative but you undo your argument by mentioning the term because everyone knows they specifically chose to not have it be part of the prophecy on the show. I've said this numerous times on this thread, but here it comes again. We have been specifically told that the endings for major characters WILL be the same for books and show. Cersei is a major character. Jaime is a major character. Thus, if Jaime is the Valonqar and is going to cross Cersei off in the books, he WILL do it in the show, too, even if the word "Valonqar" is never mentioned on the show even one time. 6 hours ago, NexivRed said: Believe it for the sake of the prophecy if you want, but it would have more credibility if you could provide legitimate reasons why Jaime would kill her other than using the prophecy as his destiny. Please see above. We have been told the major characters will have the same endings in books and show. We have been TOLD that. Thus, if Jaime is going to cross Cersei off in the books, he WILL do it in the show, too, even if it comes about in the show under different circumstances, and even if the word "Valonqar" is never once mentioned in the show. 6 hours ago, NexivRed said: That could just mean "dead or living." There's a whole lot of "how" that's completely different. There is no way I believe that is intended to be so vague as "dead or living." No way. Now, maybe I'm wrong, I've never once claimed to be perfect or omniscient, but I will be STUNNED if Jaime kills Cersei in the books but not the show. My goodness, are we now speculating that when GRRM told D&D the endings for all the major characters, they just went down a list of names and GRRM said "lives" or "dies" for each one?? I don't think so. We have been TOLD that the endings for the main characters will be the same, not just that everyone who lives in the books will live in the show, and that everyone who dies in the books will die in the show. 6 hours ago, NexivRed said: That's you convinced. This storyline is not convincing though because of the timeline I mentioned. I have addressed this multiple times in this thread too. In my strong opinion, personal timelines went out the window a while ago. In my strong opinion, the showrunners could not reconcile all the personal timelines in this show even if that's the thing they most wanted to accomplish in the next month. There are SO MANY incongruities at this point that I don't even try to keep track of them anymore, and that's without even getting into the possibilities that what we are being shown is out of chronological order. 6 hours ago, NexivRed said: We're gonna have 8 more months till Jaime leaves Cersei? So in your version, where will the Walkers be at this point? Where will Jaime and Cersei be? Will Dany be queen? What? 8 more months till Jaime "leaves" Cersei? Not sure where you got the idea I believe that. Jaime could find out he's not the father and cross Cersei off at ANY MOMENT, although I believe it will be in Season 8 (MAYBE at the very end of Season 7) 6 hours ago, NexivRed said: This is where you just sound bloody minded about the prophecy; it makes no sense in the reality of the show. Please see above. I have addressed this numerous times, in this post and quite a few others. Thanks. 6 hours ago, NexivRed said: The only way the timeline works is if Cersei and Jaime leg it together at some point, leaving the iron throne to start an exiled life somewhere together. Then she gives birth to a baby she's prophesised to never have (so you'll believe a prophecy not mentioned but ignore one that is?), and because it has some dark hair they know it's specifically Euron's. And Jaime at that point suddenly gets so mad he kills her. (a) Please see above. (b) SPOILER time. The baby is going to die. That is KNOWN. So, no, I DON'T go against Maggy's prophecies in any way, including the prophecy that Cersei will only have 3 children. There is NO NEED for the baby to be born in order for Jaime to discover it's not his and cross Cersei off. 6 hours ago, NexivRed said: You think a.) they're gonna write that? and b.) it'd make for good T.V.? Cersei, the villain, die alone somewhere after all the fighting is done? It'd be so spectacularly shit I doubt even these writers would do it. Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. That's a big part of why I like to come here, to hear different views and perspectives. Having said that, I am 100% convinced Jaime is going to cross Cersei off (books and show), 95% convinced the baby is not Jaime's, and maybe 80 to 90% convinced the father is Euron. Those are my opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 2 hours ago, falcotron said: I don't understand your point. Book!Jaime is done with Cersei while he's still in the Riverlands; show!Jaime is still with her two seasons after the equivalent. That seems like proof that the show is into some pretty major divergence from the books, but you're saying it means the opposite of that? And that's the point. I don't think GRRM or most readers see book!Jaime as a hero, but I do think D&D and many show viewers see show!Jaime as a hero, even if he's not acting heroic at the moment. For example, look at the interview where D&D talk about how the Field of Fire 2 battle last week was the first time since Blackwater where there were heroes that you can't help rooting for on both sides. I don't think they meant Dickon or Bronn; Jaime is the hero they're referring to on the Lannister side. They expect us to be rooting for Jaime as a hero, which means the redemption they give him is probably going to be a heroic one. HARR! Sorry, I had a typo up there. When I said "not" in the first sentence it should have read "now." That is, that the show now IS into major divergences from the books regarding Jaime and Cersei. (At least, regarding the paths that will lead them to their final endings, which we have been told will be the same in books and show for major characters) And that typo changed the meaning of what I intended entirely. OOPS! Sorry, but at this point I'm engaged in conversation with quite a few people here on a variety of subjects, and don't always have time to even go back to proofread what I wrote for typos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Um, Cersei has no other lovers in the show, it is obviously Jamie's baby. There is no one even potentially that could be her lover unless you think she's sleeping with Qyborn. So, Jamie is the father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 1 hour ago, lakin1013 said: But why would a new baby be intensely personal to Jaime? He never displayed any real role with Joffrey, Tommen, or Myrcella. I realize he could not act fatherly, but he could have been avuncular, the favorite uncle kind of thing. He didn't. He wasn't. Why now? It's not the "new baby" per se that is intensely personal to Jaime, it would be the revelation that Jaime is NOT the father. AND if I'm right, and Euron IS the father, that would be a LOT more salt in the wound. That would all be intensely personal to Jaime, and enough to cause Jaime to cross Cersei off, in my strong opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakin1013 Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Cron said: It's not the "new baby" per se that is intensely personal to Jaime, it would be the revelation that Jaime is NOT the father. AND if I'm right, and Euron IS the father, that would be a LOT more salt in the wound. That would all be intensely personal to Jaime, and enough to cause Jaime to cross Cersei off, in my strong opinion. I agree then, if Jaime is not the father, and if Cersei makes it plain to all that Jaime is the father, all the while knowing he isn't - I believe we have the definition of cuckold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Time for Starks Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 99.0% Jaime 0.7% Tycho Nestoris 0.2% Qyburn 0.1% Euron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 17 minutes ago, lakin1013 said: I agree then, if Jaime is not the father, and if Cersei makes it plain to all that Jaime is the father, all the while knowing he isn't - I believe we have the definition of cuckold. Exactly. And look at what Jaime has cared about during his life. Only two things, really. Cersei, and being a great warrior. The End. He's already lost one of those things (when he lost his hand), and if he finds out Cersei has cheated on him (whilst Jaime has literally always been faithful to Cersei), then behold, a Valonqar is born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illiterati Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, A Time for Starks said: 99.0% Jaime 0.7% Tycho Nestoris 0.2% Qyburn 0.1% Euron No love for Bronn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Time for Starks Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Illiterati said: No love for Bronn? I jumped right to the end of the thread without reading through it... Is Bronn the trendy pick? Never crossed my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Me, too! Didn't read the thread...so if it's already been mentioned, sorry, but I'm certain it's Moon Boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Time for Starks Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, Prince of the North said: Me, too! Didn't read the thread...so if it's already been mentioned, sorry, but I'm certain it's Moon Boy! "She's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illiterati Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 6 minutes ago, A Time for Starks said: I jumped right to the end of the thread without reading through it... Is Bronn the trendy pick? Never crossed my mind. I mean if Tycho and Qyburn are in there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 1 minute ago, A Time for Starks said: "She's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know" Yep, you got it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Haven't read all the posts. In the books she also slept with Taena Merryweather. Also IIRC it we only know for a fact that she slept with Osney Kettleback (for killing the High Septon and saying that he slept with Margery). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NexivRed Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Cron said: That would all be intensely personal to Jaime, and enough to cause Jaime to cross Cersei off, in my strong opinion. You're starting to sound a bit like you're pressing this because you think that's some sort of realistic reaction. Is it normal to you? Killing someone over that? Your opinion can be as strong as you like, but it's bloody weird lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deminelle Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 11 minutes ago, NexivRed said: You're starting to sound a bit like you're pressing this because you think that's some sort of realistic reaction. Is it normal to you? Killing someone over that? Your opinion can be as strong as you like, but it's bloody weird lol. I find your comment weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darmody Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 6 hours ago, Cron said: By the way, I get "Hotsister" and even "Urine," but why do you call Jaime "Larry"? I actually don't know where "Larry" comes from. I follow the crowd on that one. I just like the idea of using boring nicknames like Larry and Carol in place of the memorable Jaime and Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hyle Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 On 8/14/2017 at 10:20 PM, Wildling Queen said: I tend to agree with you on that, but just working on other possibilities: Missandei said this season that the word everyone was using for "prince" was genderless in Valyrian, it could also mean "princess." Could the word "valonqar" also be genderless? Could the younger sibling be Arya considering that she's a younger sibling of Sansa, the girl Cersei tortured for so long? Again, I think you're right. If it wasn't for Qyburn standing there in the scene last night confirming the pregnancy to Cersei, I wouldn't even believe it was a real pregnancy and that Jaime would bust her in that lie somehow. There's no mention of the valonqar in the show! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 2 hours ago, NexivRed said: You're starting to sound a bit like you're pressing this because you think that's some sort of realistic reaction. Is it normal to you? Killing someone over that? Your opinion can be as strong as you like, but it's bloody weird lol. OH. MY. FREAKING. GOODNESS. Are you SERIOUS?!?!?!!?!?!!?!?!?! So, do you believe that everything GRRM writes reflects what HE believes to be "realistic" or "normal" reactions to events???? Hello????? These are FICTIONAL CHARACTERS, in a FICTIONAL STORY. If GRRM writes that Cersei has Ned executed, does that mean GRRM believes that was a "realistic" or "normal" reaction by Cersei to what ned did???? If GRRM writes that Walder Frey kills many people at the Red Wedding, does that mean GRRM believes that was a "realistic" or "normal" reaction by Walder to what Robb did??? If GRRM writes about how Ramsay tortured and mutilated Theon, does that mean that GRRM believes that Ramsay's reaction to events was "realistic" or "normal"??? If GRRM writes that Littlefinger poisoned Jon Arryn, does that mean GRRM believes that LF's reaction to events in his life was "realistic" or "normal"??? If GRRM writes that brothers of the NW murdered Jeor Mormont, does that mean that GRRM believes their behavior was "realistic" or "normal"?? If GRRM writes that Tyrion MURDERED his father b/c he thought it was somehow rational or justified, does that mean GRRM believes Tyron's behavior is somehow "realistic" or "normal"??? If GRRM writes about how Gregor Clegane smashed the heads of little children against a wall, does that mean GRRM believes that Gregor'rs behavior was somehow "realistic' or "normal"????? Absolutely ludicrous. I could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on with this, but I'm done with this nonsense, I have much more intellectually stimulating ways to spend my time than interacting with a person who, APPARENTLY, believes that just b/c a person here predicts a fictional character will do a certain thing, that means that the poster believes the predicted behavior is somehow "normal." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 1 hour ago, darmody said: I actually don't know where "Larry" comes from. I follow the crowd on that one. I just like the idea of using boring nicknames like Larry and Carol in place of the memorable Jaime and Cersei. Very interesting. Guess I'll have to watch out for that around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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