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Daenerys will Break the Wheel


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6 hours ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

They still have Euron with his magical teleporting fleet and immunity to any injury. Though he might be a bit less happy about the alliance, given how she's pregnant with Jaimes baby. Though I wouldn't put it past Cersei to play both Jaime and Euron.

Has that navy , right, the writers of the show never do the logical thing, Dany could eliminate Euron pronto, after all he has caused her enough grief.

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5 hours ago, Heavy D said:

The great houses (Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, Tully, Greyjoy, Martell, Arron, Tyrell) that play the game.  Maybe it means getting rid of them to make the land truly one land.   Each lord would answer directly to her, the rightful monarch, instead of an intermediary like the great families.  It's not perfect but the country united will be stronger.  

That is even worse. The Mad King was stopped because there were those powerful to stop him. If Daenerys destroys Great House and takes everything into her own two hands, who is to say that her child, grandchild or great-great-grandchild won't turn just like her father? And what then? With no one to oppose him/her, he/she would be able to destroy Westeros. And that is even worse than what we have now.

 

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4 minutes ago, Risto said:

That is even worse. The Mad King was stopped because there were those powerful to stop him. If Daenerys destroys Great House and takes everything into her own two hands, who is to say that her child, grandchild or great-great-grandchild won't turn just like her father? And what then? With no one to oppose him/her, he/she would be able to destroy Westeros. And that is even worse than what we have now.

 

Good point in my opinion. I was thinking along the same lines.

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13 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Nope, the books show why she's a horrible ruler, and unlike the show does not whitewash her worst acts (despite having only Dany's self-rationalizing point of view to display it through).

Out of all the characters, Dany gets by far the best PR from the changes made on the show, bar none. Jon also looks great in the show, but he doesn't have Dany's catalogue of atrocities in the books.

The Show hasn't done anything to remotely whitewash Dany.  Rather they have added numerous scenes that do nothing but make her look worse than she does in the books.  Nor have they added any new noble traits that she doesn't have in the books.

Frankly, Stannis received better PR changes than her.  How they dropped many of his more negative attributes or actions such as his constant complaining or abandonment of Robert.  Furthermore, they added in that whole sympathetic relationship between him in Shireen that doesn't exist in the slightest in the books.

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1 hour ago, Minsc said:

The Show hasn't done anything to remotely whitewash Dany.  Rather they have added numerous scenes that do nothing but make her look worse than she does in the books.  Nor have they added any new noble traits that she doesn't have in the books.

Frankly, Stannis received better PR changes than her.  How they dropped many of his more negative attributes or actions such as his constant complaining or abandonment of Robert.  Furthermore, they added in that whole sympathetic relationship between him in Shireen that doesn't exist in the slightest in the books.

The only character that Benioff & Weiss whitewashed is Jon Snow.  Hell, the Jon on the show has been so whitewashed he smells like chlorine bleach.  They made up their own chacter in their endless panderings to Jon's fans.  It made me hate Jon even more than I already did. 

P.S., in the books, it was I, Bowen Marsh, who killed that idiot after he betrayed the Night's Watch.

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2 hours ago, boojam said:

Has that navy , right, the writers of the show never do the logical thing, Dany could eliminate Euron pronto, after all he has caused her enough grief.

Come on, the narrative that somehow the battered Lannister army is evenly matched to the vastly superior military strength of Daenerys' army doesn't maintain itself. Show runners need Cersei to stretch it out as long as possible, and if that means her opponent and her opponents advisers being handed a massive idiot ball, they will damn well hold that idiot ball. None of Cersei's grip on the power makes sense, but it ramps up the tension before her eventual demise, so logic isn't necessary. She gets slavish Jaime who has somehow transformed into a great military strategist, she gets Euron and his magic fleet, she gets Tarlys and their army, and she gets to be cheered on by people that splattered her with shit the last season. Seriously, did she blow all of the devout people in KL? I can see why brothel keepers and whores would cheer for her- after all, FM was bad for business, but the rest of the smallfolk doesn't have a great cause to cheer for her and Euron on a victory parade, what exactly did she do to get so popular? Maybe the little birds are acting as her version of Stasi and Ser Gregor is her enforcer?

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Personally, I hate the phrase 'break the wheel'. It's such an empty, vague phrase with nothing behind it. What wheel is Dany going to break? Feudalism? And replace it with what? An absolute monarchy? Great! Much better! Aerys Targaryen with a dragon would have been so much better for everyone.

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5 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Personally, I hate the phrase 'break the wheel'. It's such an empty, vague phrase with nothing behind it. What wheel is Dany going to break? Feudalism? And replace it with what? An absolute monarchy? Great! Much better! Aerys Targaryen with a dragon would have been so much better for everyone.

Seriously, she's so full of it. If she was really threatening to break the wheel and stand up for rich and poor, she'd be breaking down the monarchy and absolute rule while advocating for some sort of representative republic. But no, it's all "bend the knee" and "I'm your queen and I was destined to rule!!!!"

 

 

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Daenerys is the best hope for Westeros.  Her record of helping the weak is proven in Slaver's Bay.  People are now free, thanks to Dany.  Her accomplishments, not the phrase, is the proof that she is the best choice to rule Westeros. 

Look what the Baratheons and the Starks have done to Westeros.  Robb, Tywin, Balon, Joffrey, and Renly took a prosperous kingdom and turned it into a war torn country with a huge debt to the iron bank.  The land was in better hands under the Targaryens.  I don't expect any system to be perfect, but the Targaryens were better than the Baratheons and their Stark lackeys.

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57 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Personally, I hate the phrase 'break the wheel'. It's such an empty, vague phrase with nothing behind it. What wheel is Dany going to break? Feudalism? And replace it with what? An absolute monarchy? Great! Much better! Aerys Targaryen with a dragon would have been so much better for everyone.

Isn't Westeros already ruled by an absolute monarchy?

Or has my US unbringing corrupted my understanding of the nuances of monarchies?

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17 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

If Daenerys don't destroy feudalism and aristocracy she is just a slave master with another title.

 

The aristocracy is not necessarily always a slave master.  Slavery is illegal all over the seven kingdoms; and although it does occasionally occur, it's not widespread and when caught, is punished.  There are still aristocrats in modern England; but no slaves that I know of.  If Dany manages to destroy feudalism and the aristocracy all at once, she will probably be shown the door as well (since she is an aristocrat) and I would imagine that with such a huge, double-blow to the social order, millions of people, mostly smallfolk, will suffer and die by violence and starvation.  The thing to do is to make gradual reforms; encourage the development of a stronger middle class, remove some of the laws of feudalism, try to improve the lives of the suffering peasants while not destroying the aristocracy (who would rebel and stir up violence).  Maybe Dany could eventually usher in an era where the monarch is less powerful, and have a more powerful and more democratic government, like Parliament?  

(I'm thinking of the Russian Revolution, which was a reaction to a weak monarchy and cruel/feudal laws, and all the suffering and hunger it unleashed for decades).

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11 hours ago, Eddard Scissorhands said:

Excellent points. The problem with 'Breaking the wheel' is the fact that she says that all those houses are just spokes on a wheel, one on top of another. 

I'm not sure if she means all those house should be stripped of their power or just be disbanded completely.

But one thing seems certain. In her view the Targaryen house, who is far from innocent from crimes as a collective entity, is the one who must be on top of all and the only one excempt from this cycle, by default because of daddy. Her entire case rests on the entitlement of the Targaryen house on the throne. 

Maybe this is just a side effect of the show oversimplifying her views. 

I'm sure she means to change things up for the better. But this certainly doesn't seem to involve sharing or shifting anything in terms of the absolute power she feels the Targ name carries. She put herself as above and more self righteous than any of the major houses before she even put a foot on Westerosi soil.

 

Yes.  Why can't Dany see that her supposed 'breaking of the wheel' must include her own status as absolute monarch of Westeros.  Of course, if her power is not absolute, then she can't break that wheel.  Changing the social and legal order is a very convoluted and tricky business; as Dany should have realized from her time in Essos.  

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1 hour ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

Yes.  Why can't Dany see that her supposed 'breaking of the wheel' must include her own status as absolute monarch of Westeros.  Of course, if her power is not absolute, then she can't break that wheel.  Changing the social and legal order is a very convoluted and tricky business; as Dany should have realized from her time in Essos.  

Excellent point. What a conundrum. 

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7 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

The only character that Benioff & Weiss whitewashed is Jon Snow.  Hell, the Jon on the show has been so whitewashed he smells like chlorine bleach.  They made up their own chacter in their endless panderings to Jon's fans.  It made me hate Jon even more than I already did. 

P.S., in the books, it was I, Bowen Marsh, who killed that idiot after he betrayed the Night's Watch.

Oh, come on! That's just not true. You are obviously just hate Jon Snow. 

P.S. Your p.s. just proves my point.

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6 hours ago, Ascension of the Metatron said:

Daenerys is the best hope for Westeros.  Her record of helping the weak is proven in Slaver's Bay.  People are now free, thanks to Dany.  Her accomplishments, not the phrase, is the proof that she is the best choice to rule Westeros. 

Look what the Baratheons and the Starks have done to Westeros.  Robb, Tywin, Balon, Joffrey, and Renly took a prosperous kingdom and turned it into a war torn country with a huge debt to the iron bank.  The land was in better hands under the Targaryens.  I don't expect any system to be perfect, but the Targaryens were better than the Baratheons and their Stark lackeys.

Look what Targs did to Westeros. They had few decent kings who really count, but the worst were too cruel and insufferable... The Dance, the Blackfyre rebellions... or even the Aegon conquest...nice dynasty indeed.
Anyway, Starks did well in the North. In the books Starks are possibly the most loved by their bannerman House (also Martells are) and even by common people and that speaks volumes. Probably, that's why the North and Dorne are different from other kingdoms and probably that's why no one roots for the Mad King's daughter.

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10 hours ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

Come on, the narrative that somehow the battered Lannister army is evenly matched to the vastly superior military strength of Daenerys' army doesn't maintain itself. Show runners need Cersei to stretch it out as long as possible, and if that means her opponent and her opponents advisers being handed a massive idiot ball, they will damn well hold that idiot ball. None of Cersei's grip on the power makes sense, but it ramps up the tension before her eventual demise, so logic isn't necessary. She gets slavish Jaime who has somehow transformed into a great military strategist, she gets Euron and his magic fleet, she gets Tarlys and their army, and she gets to be cheered on by people that splattered her with shit the last season. Seriously, did she blow all of the devout people in KL? I can see why brothel keepers and whores would cheer for her- after all, FM was bad for business, but the rest of the smallfolk doesn't have a great cause to cheer for her and Euron on a victory parade, what exactly did she do to get so popular? Maybe the little birds are acting as her version of Stasi and Ser Gregor is her enforcer?

One hundred per cent correct. The argument for two seasons was that the crown could not move against the Faith Militant because the masses would go Able Sugar if such was done. Cersei did more than that and the anger of the masses just disappeared! Destruction of The Sept should have brought non Faith Militant , yet followers of the Faith of the Seven , down on KL like a whirl wind. All the crown's vassals would have rioted , even the Tarlys. More imagination in the telling of that story would have made a much more interesting narrative.

 

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Daenerys will save millions by getting rid of prisions.

"I will not put men on chains" - so basically this means no prisioners, for her there is only "team Danny" or "dead" state.

This raises big problems because she doesn't understand and/or care for why the concept of prisioner exists - this is a huge problem for someone that wants to rule.

 

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Some of these response in this thread..i know you lot hate Dany, but common hate her cause she is boring, but do no go off the walls with calling her a hypocrite and other nonsense like that.

The story (aside from the magical things) is set in a feudal world, were a few rich families control the rest by FEAR. These people won't bend to anyone, let alone a child of a monarch that half of them overthrew just cause she asked nicely. So let's actually examine what she did so far:

- She freed the Unsullied, does it really matter how she freed them? Are you lot with your head so far up your asses that you are complaining that she roasted alive the guys that were cutting the dicks of children, and numerous other horrors?

The Unsullied are not following her because she threatened them, they follow her because she gave them free will.

In Westeros, while the common soldier may not have much freedom to go about doing whatever he wants like a lord, he does have the basics freedoms like taking a shit whenever he wants for example. These are soldiers that were feed the following narrative: fight against this foreign invader, or die by my hands, because we wont suffer traitors..not much of a choice now is it?

Now you can say that Dany is basically giving them the same choice, but if u remember what Lannister do with their captives, you will understand that its a better choice for them to switch sides.

The only thing that Dany is guilty is not having a good plan to maintain peace once she burns all her enemies, but that's why she has good advisors around her, that can guide her in the right direction.

Seriously people, make the distinction.

 

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