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Benjen = Night's King


greywindsrage

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I do believe Cold Hands is Benjen. I haven't seen any proof that'd debunk the theory. Also, it would make great sense that from all the people a Stark could "return" in such a form. From what we have been told, I think it would be safe-ish to sa he's one of the ice zombie things. (Please, someone, what's the English name for those fuckers?) And based on what we've been told about the warging ability that runs in the Stark line, it sound plausible that Benjen could have died while warging into an animal etc. and then warging back to his resurrected corpse.

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3 hours ago, jthurman14 said:

Do we know he is not cold hands?

Also the NK has been wightifying crastors sons for a long time. Unless the NK can transform back to human form I don't see how that works with Benjen visiting WF in GOT.

The NK has been doing no such thing. The NK is dead and has been so for thousands of years. The Others, and possibly the Great Other (if such an entity actually exists), may do something with Craster's sons but the only evidence that this occurs is the testimony of Craster's daughter wives. The children very well could just be left out and die from exposure. After all, there is a purely pragmatic possible reason for Craster's "sacrifices" that doesn't involve any sort of deal for protection from the Others; simply put, Craster doesn't want a male heir to eventually challenge his position and take his harem from him. To prevent this, he leaves any potential threat in the cold to die.

The truth is we don't know what happened to Benjen Stark -- he could have been turned to the side of the Others and return in some sort of antagonist role, he could possibly be Cold Hands, or he could just be dead in the frozen wastes north of the Wall and never appear on page again.

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The Night King as an active character in the reign of Tommen I is a construction of the show, no? As far as the the George's use of the Night's King as a legendary figure in ASOIAF is concerned, we should note that it is nestled in between two other tales he tells us through Bran's point of view at the Nightfort... 

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"There are ghosts here," Bran said. Hodor had heard all the stories before, but Jojen might not have. "Old ghosts, from before the Old King, even before Aegon the Dragon, seventy-nine deserters who went south to be outlaws. One was Lord Ryswell's youngest son, so when they reached the barrowlands they sought shelter at his castle, but Lord Ryswell took them captive and returned them to the Nightfort. The Lord Commander had holes hewn in the top of the Wall and he put the deserters in them and sealed them up alive in the ice. They have spears and horns and they all face north. The seventy-nine sentinels, they're called. They left their posts in life, so in death their watch goes on forever. Years later, when Lord Ryswell was old and dying, he had himself carried to the Nightfort so he could take the black and stand beside his son. He'd sent him back to the Wall for honor's sake, but he loved him still, so he came to share his watch."

Bran IV, Storm 56

The tale of seventy-nine (shouldn't that be nine and seventy?) sentinels suggests that even one's family would not harbor a deserter from the Night's Watch. It also suggests that if you desert in life, your watch will not end in death. Is the author suggesting anything else? 

After The George gives us the tale of the seventy-nine sentinals, he gives us the tale of the Night's King...

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The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

Bran IV, Storm 56

From this tale we see that a watchman set himself up as a king, with his seat at the Nightfort, after he had become ensorceled by a female Other. He sacrificed to the Others, presumably like Craster, and he was eventually brought down by the Lord of Stark and the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Old Nan suggests that there might have been a kinslaying element involved, but as the passage below suggests, this may have just been a flourish for young Bran's entertainment. 

Although the Night's King is referred to in passing a few more times, we don't learn anything else in the novels. Unlike the seventy-nine sentinals, though, we get a little clarification in The World of Ice and Fire...

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The oldest of these tales concern the legendary Night’s King, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, who was alleged to have bedded a sorceress pale as a corpse and declared himself a king. For thirteen years the Night’s King and his “corpse queen” ruled together, before the King of Winter, Brandon the Breaker, (in alliance, it is said, with the King-Beyond-the-Wall, Joramun) brought them down. Thereafter, he obliterated the Night’s King’s very name from memory.

In the Citadel, the archmaesters largely dismiss these tales—though some allow that there may have been a Lord Commander who attempted to carve out a kingdom for himself in the earliest days of the Watch. Some suggest that perhaps the corpse queen was a woman of the Barrowlands, a daughter of the Barrow King who was then a power in his own right, and oft associated with graves. The Night’s King has been said to have been variously a Bolton, a Woodfoot, an Umber, a Flint, a Norrey, or even a Stark, depending on where the tale is told. Like all tales, it takes on the attributes that make it most appealing to those who tell it.

The World of Ice and Fire

The ASOIAF character that bears the strongest association to the Night’s King is King Stannis, who will claim the Nightfort as his royal seat soon after Bran recalls Old Nan's tale. He appears have been ensorceled by a pale woman. And although we don't have a connection with the Others, he has sacrificed and made those shadowbabies, and he just might be fixing to sacrifice his daughter. 

After the the tale of the Night's King, The George gives us the tale of the Rat Cook...

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The Rat Cook had cooked the son of the Andal king in a big pie with onions, carrots, mushrooms, lots of pepper and salt, a rasher of bacon, and a dark red Dornish wine. Then he served him to his father, who praised the taste and had a second slice. Afterward the gods transformed the cook into a monstrous white rat who could only eat his own young. He had roamed the Nightfort ever since, devouring his children, but still his hunger was not sated. "It was not for murder that the gods cursed him," Old Nan said, "nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive."

Bran IV, Strom 56

The story tells us that the gods cannot forgive a man who slays a guest beneath his roof, even if he has a right to vengeance. It also sets up Lord Wyman's Frey pies, and it suggests that Wyman will not be satisfied with Rhaegar, Symond, and Jared. 

My guess is that the three tales are loosely related, and that they are meant to help us understand the culture of the North. 

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We know CH is not Benjen as per that photo of the manuscript (I think?) with a big fat NO from Martin to his editor who was asking about CH - "Benjen?". 

Martin has also said that the NK is a character of legend, who supposedly lived thousands of years ago, and that if he really existed he'd probably be long dead by now. 

 

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I wish people would be clear what they mean when they refer to the Night's King. I feel you almost need to put in a disclaimer if you are actually talking about the book version of the Night's King rather than some unknown entity that may possibly be leading the others that we haven't seen.

It's difficult to see what Benjen could possibly have to do with the Night's King unless he returns to the wall with a pale woman and becomes commander. It is interesting however that the Night's King was the 13th commander, an (in)auspicious number. Numbers 999 and 1000 could arguably also be considered somewhat symbolic as well.

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44 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 if he really existed he'd probably be long dead by now. 

 

Do Others age? "Cold preserves". The show's portrayal is likely different from the books, but in the absence of direct evidence I think it's reasonable to assume that there is some sort of Central authority that the Others are acting to support. Could be a humanoid ice thing, or a magical force of will, but something is giving them their priorities. 

As for Benjen being such a thing... seem unlikely. He didn't disappear until after Waymar Royce and company  went missing. That means if Benjen is a powerful Other, he attained the position very recently and that would beg thorough explanation.

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5 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Do Others age? "Cold preserves". The show's portrayal is likely different from the books, but in the absence of direct evidence I think it's reasonable to assume that there is some sort of Central authority that the Others are acting to support. Could be a humanoid ice thing, or a magical force of will, but something is giving them their priorities. 

As for Benjen being such a thing... seem unlikely. He didn't disappear until after Waymar Royce and company  went missing. That means if Benjen is a powerful Other, he attained the position very recently and that would beg thorough explanation.

What does how or if they age have to do w/ anything? The OP is suggesting that maybe Benjen is the Night's King. The Night's King was a man, a human being who allegedly had a fling with - and apparently was ensorcelled by - a female WW. 

The NK is not, I repeat, he IS NOT the alpha WW, however you wanna call him. :)

 

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37 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Do Others age? "Cold preserves". The show's portrayal is likely different from the books, but in the absence of direct evidence I think it's reasonable to assume that there is some sort of Central authority that the Others are acting to support. Could be a humanoid ice thing, or a magical force of will, but something is giving them their priorities. 

I’m thinking the central authority is the great other.

As to the part about cold preserves; I’m thinking that was Maester Aemon yapping. He died after leaving the Wall. I think Sam put him in a wine vat, kinda pickling the poor chap and Aemon, dead though he maybe might be is now on an adventure on the Cinnamon Wind with Archmaester Marwyn.

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

What does how or if they age have to do w/ anything? The OP is suggesting that maybe Benjen is the Night's King. The Night's King was a man, a human being who allegedly had a fling with - and apparently was ensorcelled by - a female WW. 

The NK is not, I repeat, he IS NOT the alpha WW, however you wanna call him. :)

 

Right, I don't disagree, but meant to challenge the original post to see what exactly what s/he meant by Night King. If the original NK was a position held by a specific Other, it would mean that Benjen somehow now commanded the Others despite being really new to the walking death thing.

 

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

As to the part about cold preserves; I’m thinking that was Maester Aemon yapping. 

I think it's part of the mythology and symbolism, and possibly foreshadowing of Jon's death/resurrection. Beyond being a technically true statement, it's meant to tell us something about the nature of the Others in contrast to R'Llhor or the Dragons. Magic has persisted in the Wall and beyond it, despite dying the South. Whatever magical force has a grudge against humanity, it's a very old grudge. We definitely know what life and death are somewhat flexible terms, especially up north, so I do think it's fair to question if the Others are immortal or experience time differently.

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21 hours ago, greywindsrage said:

We know that he ain't Cold Hands but we don't know where he is or what he's up to even after 5 books. If the original NK was really a Stark then maybe GRRM is setting us up for a big WTF . Maybe he doesn't intend for us to find out but it would be an interesting twist.

Benjen is not Cold Hands.  Agreed.  As for the rest of your opening post it feels like you are posting out of boredom.  I mean it has been years that we've been waiting for Winds.  I get it.  In fact, it is the same boredom that has led to me replying.

In the books, the Night's King is a character from the Age of Heroes.  He is as much myth as he is fact and if he lived at all it was thousands of years ago.   If he is still alive and turns out to be Benjen that would definitely be a really big WTF.  But, as you say, he might not intend for us to find out about it. 

 

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As for the Night's King (the form I prefer), in the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder, and no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have.

GRRM

1

 

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6 hours ago, cgrav said:

Right, I don't disagree, but meant to challenge the original post to see what exactly what s/he meant by Night King. If the original NK was a position held by a specific Other, it would mean that Benjen somehow now commanded the Others despite being really new to the walking death thing.

 

I think it's part of the mythology and symbolism, and possibly foreshadowing of Jon's death/resurrection. Beyond being a technically true statement, it's meant to tell us something about the nature of the Others in contrast to R'Llhor or the Dragons. Magic has persisted in the Wall and beyond it, despite dying the South. Whatever magical force has a grudge against humanity, it's a very old grudge. We definitely know what life and death are somewhat flexible terms, especially up north, so I do think it's fair to question if the Others are immortal or experience time differently.

I'm confused... You agree but at the same time you're asking whether it's possible for the "original" Night's King was a "position held by a specific Other". :dunno:

 

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5 hours ago, White Ravens said:

<snip>

In the books, the Night's King is a character from the Age of Heroes.  He is as much myth as he is fact and if he lived at all it was thousands of years ago.   If he is still alive and turns out to be Benjen that would definitely be a really big WTF.  But, as you say, he might not intend for us to find out about it. `

Probably we'll see all the heroes back again - the critical thing might be who gets to play which role.

The Night's King wasn't king of the Others, he was king of the Wall - so we've got just two candidates for that: Stannis with pale Melisandre at his side, and Jon with pale Val. One is fire, one is ice (or fire and ice) - it's very confusing.

But Benjen won't be Night's King - I think his role will be as mentor to Jon entering the world of the ice wights.

16 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Isn't Benjen the only child of Rickard Stark that doesn't have grey eyes? Aren't his eyes in fact, blue? Blue like the Others! 

That's especially striking considering there is a 'known' Stark look in that generation - making Benjen a candidate for that select group of people whose eyes are blue, but should be another colour (Renly, Val, Qyburn - i.e. the resurrection men plus Val). Not a good omen for Benjen.

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59 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Martin said Renly's eye colour was a mistake.

Sure. (That is, I'll take your word for it.) Thing is, instead of learning from this mistake, he is repeating it and making it more obvious. He's done it for other things too (eg lemons in Braavos). Make of that what you will.

ETA: To me, it's easiest to believe he's weaving this stuff into the story.

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11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Martin has also said that the NK is a character of legend, who supposedly lived thousands of years ago, and that if he really existed he'd probably be long dead by now. 

Do you have the source for that? 

ETA

Never mind. :)

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10 hours ago, cgrav said:

Right, I don't disagree, but meant to challenge the original post to see what exactly what s/he meant by Night King. If the original NK was a position held by a specific Other, it would mean that Benjen somehow now commanded the Others despite being really new to the walking death thing.

 

I think it's part of the mythology and symbolism, and possibly foreshadowing of Jon's death/resurrection. Beyond being a technically true statement, it's meant to tell us something about the nature of the Others in contrast to R'Llhor or the Dragons. Magic has persisted in the Wall and beyond it, despite dying the South. Whatever magical force has a grudge against humanity, it's a very old grudge. We definitely know what life and death are somewhat flexible terms, especially up north, so I do think it's fair to question if the Others are immortal or experience time differently.

It's not a position or anything of the sort. It's the name that people attributed to a man, the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who went rogue and styled himself king and committed horrible atrocities, presumably because of his association with a female who may have been a female Other. In the stories that are told of this event people refer to that man as the Night King. He was not an Other. He was a man. I can only assume that you mean the Great Other and are asking if that is a position held by a specific Other. Nobody knows what the Great Other is or if it is even real. There is most likely some sort of governing power behind the Others, it is probably what Bran saw when he turned his eyes to the far north in his dream. But what that power is remains unknown.

Also, @kissdbyfire, do you have to a link to that manuscript refuting the Benjen = CH possibility? I haven't seen that one yet, I didn't know there was proof against this theory.

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