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The truth about Ashara Dayne's suicide


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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Wenda the White Fawn. The Kingswood brotherhood gets a lot of attention in the last book, the story of her branding the asses of noble prisoners is even repeated (it's in the Merret epilogue and then in a Jaime chapter when he talks to Merret's family), and her fate is unknown (unlike the other notable members). The origin of her nickname is unknown; white could refer to septa's robes (BTW, Lemore taught YG about the Faith - such a task should be done by someone well-versed in the doctrine, not merely its follower like Ashara, about whom we have no mention as being religious). Furthermore, if Wenda was a former septa, then in the parallel between the Kingswood brotherhood and Robin Hood's merry band, she is Lady Marian and Friar Tuck, who otherwise doesn't have a parallel. We know that Lemore had given birth; being a soiled septa - or made to become one because of being soiled - would explain her rather personal vendetta against the young noblemen as proxies for the one who seduced and dumped her. We also have an account of Barristan rescuing Jeyne Swann and her septa from the brotherhood - well, wouldn't it be a cute chance for Wenda to save her ass, seeing that the brotherhood was doomed? It was speculated that Wenda may have been of House Cafferen (sigil of two fawns), which is a Stormland house, just like house Swann, which would allow for a possibility for the two women being acquainted and Jeyne thus cooperating to help Wenda. Finally, there is a possible connection through the Toynes - Simon Toyne was the brotherhood's Robin Hood, the GC was led by Miles Toyne who was on the Aegon plot.

The original idea is FireEater's, I only elaborated on it a bit.

The Toyne connection makes it plausible. If you read the first Jon Connington chapter it sounds like the Golden Company are much more informed than Connington himself about Illyrio's plan. Given that the Blackfyre connection seems very likely, it would mean that the Golden Company or at least it's leadership were in on it from the start and that Connington is being the dupe here.

Her own reservations could be because like Connington it was Toyne she trusted and with him gone she has much less faith in the Golden Company. Or maybe she knows Strickland and realizes 

As for her background. It sounds more likely to me that she became a septa after she was captured. Ulmer was sent to the Night's Watch. The equivalent for women would be the clergy. To be honest my first thought in such an occasion would be the Silent Sisters, but maybe they were feeling merciful. 

ETA it would fit the background of the rest of Aegon's retinue, being exiles or outlaws of one kind or another.

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2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

The Toyne connection makes it plausible. If you read the first Jon Connington chapter it sounds like the Golden Company are much more informed than Connington himself about Illyrio's plan. Given that the Blackfyre connection seems very likely, it would mean that the Golden Company or at least it's leadership were in on it from the start and that Connington is being the dupe here.

That's my impression, as well.

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

As for her background. It sounds more likely to me that she became a septa after she was captured. Ulmer was sent to the Night's Watch. The equivalent for women would be the clergy. To be honest my first thought in such an occasion would be the Silent Sisters, but maybe they were feeling merciful. 

The thing is, we don't even know if she was captured... IMHO, Silent Sisters would make more sense; do we have any example of a sinner becoming a septa/septon?

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

ETA it would fit the background of the rest of Aegon's retinue, being exiles or outlaws of one kind or another.

Yeah, a good catch :-)

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7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

The thing is, we don't even know if she was captured... IMHO, Silent Sisters would make more sense; do we have any example of a sinner becoming a septa/septon?

That is a good point. The assumption is that the whole Brotherhood got taken down, she would have been captured or killed. It works either way, though. She might have joined a Septry under a false identity to evade capture.

As for sinners becoming septons, I think the pious would tell you that everyone is a sinner. The thing is the clergy is a dumping ground for undesirable females. As a punishment the Silent Sisters would indeed fit better.

A scenario that came to me is that she got herself pregnant to avoid execution. Perhaps the Silent Sisters only take maidens, so her pregancy spared her that fate as well.

I'm not hung up on Lemore being the White Fawn. Considering the other factors, I would think a member of a house that were Targaryen loyalists. Whent would have been my first choice, but they are all dead. If she is in with the Blackfyre set up, her being Wenda would make better sense.

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18 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

A scenario that came to me is that she got herself pregnant to avoid execution. Perhaps the Silent Sisters only take maidens, so her pregancy spared her that fate as well.

I was under the impression that the SS were mostly widows ... am I wrong again?

 

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4 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

I was under the impression that the SS were mostly widows ... am I wrong again?

 

I was wrong. I remembered that Fireball forced his wife to join them. Given the nature of the service they really can't afford to turn away supplicants.

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10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

Happy to help. Barbrey definitely was in love with Brandon. Don't know if Brandon was in love with her. His line about swords looking best when blooded, with its associated sexual connotations makes me think maybe he made a habit of deflowering virgins.

Oberyn is a definite possibility. The both would have been in Dorne at the right time, and if she did indeed have a girl, we know Oberyn is capable of fathering one.

In fact, Lady Ashara Daynes danced with Oberyn at Harrenhall. Remember, the white knight (her brother or Selmy), the red snake (Oberyn), and the shy wolf (Eddard Stark). :) And it happened at Harrenhall. No need to go to Dorne.

BUT maybe it was just a rumor. Brandon insisted she danced with his brother Ned, who was to shy to invite her. And she finally fall in love with Eddard (the shy wolf), they had an affair. Eddard was supposed to marry her because he was free, Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully.

Eddard is able to have daughters.

But when he arrives to Starfall, saying : 1°) he killed her brother 2°) he has to marry his brother's wife because Brandon is dead and it's his duty. 3°) Jon is his bastard son (not sure he trust her enough to endanger Lyanna's baby.

Well, very good reasons to commit suicide. Or...disappear.:D

 

I think, about Eddard and Ashara, Reed knows. The Reed know. 

He will surely appear in the next books. 

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11 minutes ago, Sasha said:

But when he arrives to Starfall, saying :

2°) he has to marry his brother's wife because Brandon is dead and it's his duty.

At this point in time Catelyn was ready to pop - or had already popped - Robb.

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2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

That is a good point. The assumption is that the whole Brotherhood got taken down, she would have been captured or killed. It works either way, though. She might have joined a Septry under a false identity to evade capture. 

As for sinners becoming septons, I think the pious would tell you that everyone is a sinner. The thing is the clergy is a dumping ground for undesirable females. As a punishment the Silent Sisters would indeed fit better

Those are certainly plausible variations, as well. She may have spent some time as a septa before leaving for Essos, there is a time gap allowing for that. I think she had been a septa before she joined the brotherhood, though, because it explains her nickname.

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

A scenario that came to me is that she got herself pregnant to avoid execution. Perhaps the Silent Sisters only take maidens, so her pregancy spared her that fate as well.

Yeah, pleading the belly was also suggested in that old thread. IIRC, we had fun suggesting that Arthur Dayne took pity upon her and helped out :D

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I'm not hung up on Lemore being the White Fawn. Considering the other factors, I would think a member of a house that were Targaryen loyalists. Whent would have been my first choice, but they are all dead. If she is in with the Blackfyre set up, her being Wenda would make better sense.

Well, I'm not completely wed to the theory, either, but what really caught my attention was that the funny little story of her brandishing the noblemen's buttocks with her sign is told twice. GRRM never gets repetitive for no reason, and since he first telling goes in an epilogue, it's easy to remember that he had already told. So, it's like saying, "pay attention, this is going to play a role". Not necessarily Wenda=Lemore, but some role.

1 minute ago, Sasha said:

In fact, she danced with Oberyn at Harrenhall. Remember, the white knight (her brother or Selmy), the red snake (Oberyn), and the shy wolf (Eddard Stark). :) And it happened at Harrenhall. No need to go to Dorne.

BUT maybe it was just a rumor. Brandon insisted she danced with his brother Ned, who was to shy to invite her. And she finally fall in love with Eddard (the shy wolf), they had an affair. Eddard was supposed to marry her because he was free, Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully.

Eddard is able to have daughters.

But when he arrives to Starfall, saying : 1°) he killed her brother 2°) he has to marry his brother's wife because Brandon is dead and it's his duty. 3°) Jon is his bastard son (not sure he trust her enough to endanger Lyanna's baby.

Well, very good reasons to commit suicide. Or...disappear.:D

Only, if Ned indeed got her pregnant at Harrenhall, there was plenty of time to marry her afterwards, before Brandon got killed. And when Ned turned up at Starfall, he had been married to Cat for at least half a year, and since the marriage brought the Tullys into the Rebel alliance, it would be weird if people didn't know.

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7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

Only, if Ned indeed got her pregnant at Harrenhall, there was plenty of time to marry her afterwards, before Brandon got killed. And when Ned turned up at Starfall, he had been married to Cat for at least half a year, and since the marriage brought the Tullys into the Rebel alliance, it would be weird if people didn't know.

You're absolutely right. :D

Maybe seing a baby and knowing his brother has died was enough to push her to suicide. After all, she was quite young and she lost a lot in a few months. 

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On 8/23/2017 at 1:34 AM, Ygrain said:

Wenda the White Fawn. The Kingswood brotherhood gets a lot of attention in the last book, the story of her branding the asses of noble prisoners is even repeated (it's in the Merret epilogue and then in a Jaime chapter when he talks to Merret's family), and her fate is unknown (unlike the other notable members). The origin of her nickname is unknown; white could refer to septa's robes (BTW, Lemore taught YG about the Faith - such a task should be done by someone well-versed in the doctrine, not merely its follower like Ashara, about whom we have no mention as being religious). Furthermore, if Wenda was a former septa, then in the parallel between the Kingswood brotherhood and Robin Hood's merry band, she is Lady Marian and Friar Tuck, who otherwise doesn't have a parallel. We know that Lemore had given birth; being a soiled septa - or made to become one because of being soiled - would explain her rather personal vendetta against the young noblemen as proxies for the one who seduced and dumped her. We also have an account of Barristan rescuing Jeyne Swann and her septa from the brotherhood - well, wouldn't it be a cute chance for Wenda to save her ass, seeing that the brotherhood was doomed? It was speculated that Wenda may have been of House Cafferen (sigil of two fawns), which is a Stormland house, just like house Swann, which would allow for a possibility for the two women being acquainted and Jeyne thus cooperating to help Wenda. Finally, there is a possible connection through the Toynes - Simon Toyne was the brotherhood's Robin Hood, the GC was led by Miles Toyne who was on the Aegon plot.

The original idea is FireEater's, I only elaborated on it a bit.

I recall @Fire Eater's thread. And your's too. The Kingswood Brotherhood stuff is in the text for a reason, but I think explaining Jaime's early exploits at a young age, giving Arthur Dayne a little war to wage, and setting a precedent for the Brotherhood without Banners satisfy the Kingswood Brotherhood's inclusion in the greater story. Having it in there, the George was able to develop it and a few other characters based on it, giving us Merrett Frey, Ulmer, and Oswyn Longneck the Thrice-Hanged. 

The connection with the Toynes is what I find most attractive about the theory, though, and that's why I think Wenda the White Fawn should be considered the most likely candidate among  Ashara Dayne, Tyene Sand's mum, and the Mad Maid. 

I like the Mad Maid. Tyron describes three women as handsome: 1) Chataya (Tyrion VII, Clash 2); 2) Mace Tyrell's wife, the Lady Alerie (Tyrion VIII, Storm 60); and 3) Lemore (Tyrion III, Dance 8 & Tyrion IV, Dance 14). The kicker is that Alerie is the Mad Maid's little sister. The first time we read the word Hightower in ASOIAF is when Bran thinks of the Kingsguards he dreams of emulating before his fall, "The White Bull, Gerold Hightower." (Bran II, Game 8.) Later, we learned that the White Bull heard Ser Barristan Selmy's vows when Barristan the Bold was named to the Kingsguard, (Sansa V, Game 57) That might be a connection between Barristan and Lemore that could develop in Winds or Dream. And that connection might extend to Jaime since the White Bull heard his vows as well. Keep in mind that the author might be setting up Jaime to play the role of kingmaker for Aegon. The strong connection between the Faith and House Hightower could explain why Lemore is so well versed in the Faith. 

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On 8/22/2017 at 1:38 PM, Ygrain said:

But why did GRRM decide that Ashara would have notable eyes if the only way he could cope with it was leave it out altogether? That's very unGRRMish, I'd say. And I'd also say it would be very weird writing if one character's eye colour is left out even though it is important plot-wise, while we have another character in the same chapters whose eye colour is also a plot point.

All good questions, of course. My speculation is that Martin doesn't plan on withholding the information about Lemore's eye color for much longer. Much longer in terms of from the introduction of her character to the reveal of her eye color in the next book. I won't speculate on when the next book actually comes out. If she is Ashara, I would think the time of revealing her identity would come with a meeting of Lemore with someone who can say who she is. That could be with Connington, or it could be with Doran himself. I don't think it likely that Arianne would recognize her. Although she could notice her eye color without recognizing her as Ashara. Another possibility is she is recognized by the besieging commander of Storm's End, Mathis Rowan.

Is it bad writing? I don't think so, but we may have to differ on that question. I think there is a plausible reason to why Tyrion does not describe Lemore's eyes in the scene in question, but that does not mean he goes throughout their voyage together without noticing her eyes. That would be bad writing. However, we must then ask ourselves whether or not that clue should inform Tyrion of Lemore's true identity? I don't think we have any reason to think it would. We as readers will take note of violet eyes and weigh their significance, but who should Tyrion know that fits the age and description - including violet eyes? He is too young to have really known Ashara. He may or may not have heard of her. If so, should he have the same reaction the reader has to put violet eyes and Ashara's name together? I doubt it.

If anything, he should wonder if Young Griff and Lemore are related. Which would raise the possibility she is a Targaryen, but she is too old for any Targaryen we, or Tyrion, should know about. Perhaps, Tyrion thinks she may be "Aegon's" mother and part of the attempt to pass him off as the dead prince. If so, there still isn't anything that points to Ashara from Tyrion's perspective. I don't think the eye color he has surely noticed over the long time together aboard the Shy Maid is clue enough to solve the mystery of Lemore for Tyrion.

On 8/22/2017 at 1:38 PM, Ygrain said:

Sorry but this really doesn't hold. Tyrion has been around Lemore for quite some time, and at the moment when he learns that she is hiding her identity, he starts to observe her more closely wondering who she might be. That is a moment when he is thinking with his brain, not private parts, and a notable eye colour ought to ring a bell with him.

I think I have dealt with this in my first response. If not, please point out what I missed and I'll respond later.

On 8/22/2017 at 1:38 PM, Ygrain said:

Except that Ashara was not in KL during the Rebellion - isn't there a SSM saying that much? And even if she made a secret trip there, then how did she wind up back at Starfall to meet Ned Stark? And why? If she collaborated with Varys, wouldn't it be better to fake a suicide before she went to fetch Aegon? Because her being at Starfall after the Sack suggests that she wasn't at KL during the Sack and thus cannot vouch for anything. Besides, if she wasn't with Elia during the Rebellion, how would she know herself that the baby is indeed Aegon?

Wonderful questions. First, there is no SSM that I know of that states where Ashara was during the rebellion. In fact, I think Martin has gone out of his way to leave that question unanswered. His famous quote about Ashara not being "nailed to the floor" in Dorne is about as specific as he gets.

To the rest, all I can answer with is speculation. I once put out my favorite "crackpot" theory on all of this and called it the "Two Princes in the Tower."  I call it crackpot because, while it can't be ruled out, there is little to nothing outside of motive to support it. 

It starts with the motive of Elia and Rhaegar to get their children out of King's Landing. We know as early as the aftermath of the Battle of the Bells Aerys has Elia in King's Landing and is using her as a hostage against Dorne. Before that we know Elia was on Dragonstone with the newborn Aegon and, I assume, Rhaenys. Something got her back to King's Landing where she could be used as a hostage. My guess is a royal summons, backed up with an escort to bring her to the capital. After that we know Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar and persuade him to come back north and take up the command of the loyalist army. I think a large part of that  persuasion is a message to Rhaegar, as there was to Doran, using the threat to his children and Elia to force the crown prince north.

Which provides the motive for secreting the children out of the city. Here we are confronted with choices. Do we accept Varys's tale of the Pisswater Prince bought with a bottle of Arbor Gold? Perhaps. But my guess is that if Rhaegar and Elia want to free their children from Aerys's grip that Varys would be the last person they would go to for help. Time and again he has been shown to be Rhaegar's most effective enemy at court. Think of the exposure of the purpose of the Harrenhal tourney and the attendance of Aerys at that event. Which makes me wonder if the Targaryen prince and his wife might not have tried to use their own loyalist to get the children out to somewhere where they're safe and in the hands of Rhaegar loyalists? I think they would, and the Pisswater Prince story may well be Varys's reflection of a plot to do so he later discovers. Of course, whether or not Varys's story is real, in part or in whole, the reality is that sneaking Rhaenys out is much more a problem than sneaking out the baby Aegon. Which supports whatever version of this escape only including Aegon you choose to consider.

If so, Ashara and a wet nurse would be an effective duo in sneaking a child out of King's Landing and off to Dorne. There would likely be some escort as well, at least part of the way. The key is getting away from King's Landing and into the hands of people Rhaegar and Elia would trust. I think her brother at the tower of joy has to be at the top of that list, with Ashara's other family members right behind him. 

Suppose I'm right, and Ashara and a wet nurse, let's call her "Wylla," escape through the city guards, either together or separately to meet up outside of King's Landing and travel to the tower of joy. Next we jump to Ned's arrival at the tower. After the battle with the Kingsguard, Ned and Howland find Lyanna dying from the complications of childbirth with a newborn Jon with her. Also Ned and Reed find the Lady Ashara, Wylla, and the wet nurse's child, a year to a year and half year's old. This bald child nursing at Wylla breast obviously gives no reason to Ned or Howland not to be just who Wylla claims him to be. Ned thinks Aegon dead. Children's head's are shaved to get rid of lice, etc. Who knows what the babe's eye color looks like at this age, but Ned doesn't have reason to doubt claim to be his mother, and every reason to want help with baby Jon. They travel together to Starfall, which answers some questions about how Ned and Howland are allowed to travel to that city, and once there Ned gives over the sword Dawn, and leaves with Ashara's blessing and a new wet nurse to take Jon north into hiding as Ned's bastard son.

After Ned leaves, never knowing who Wylla's baby really was, the child "dies" and Ashara commits "suicide." In reality, Lady Ashara and the child Aegon take ship to the Free Cities to hide from Robert's new regime.

Now, many scenarios can be woven from the strands of knowledge we have, but that's my crackpot take. Choose to believe Varys's Pisswater Prince tale? Varys wasn't someone either Elia or Rhaegar would have trusted with their heir. Even if it takes place much the way Young Griff tells it, there has to be someone Elia trusted to take the child. Ashara fits that bill.

Back to speculation, and we have to ask ourselves how this plot has gone on for so long without an answer to how to convince the Lords of Westeros to Aegon's true identity - whether that is a complete fake or real. I'd submit that is not possible without a credible witness the nobility, and first and foremost the Prince of Dorne, will believe. That leaves me with three candidates Doran might believe - Mellario of Norvos, Tyene's mother, and Ashara Dayne. The first two have many reasons to not being Septa Lemore, but first among them is they have no relationship with Elia or Rhaegar that make it likely they would smuggle Aegon out of King's Landing and almost nothing to make us think they would raise the child on a riverboat on the Rhoyne for 15 plus years.

Ashara, on the other hand checks all the boxes for being willing to do the task and being able to convince Doran that this young pretender is really Aegon.

Here let me stop my crackpot theory with this one other point of speculation. Because I theorize Ashara smuggles herself and Aegon to the Free Cities does not mean that I think Young Griff is Aegon. My guess is that Aegon is dead. Not from Gregors's murder in King's Landing, but from unknown causes that kill any child of his age. I'm convinced by Dany's vision of the "mummer's dragon" that Young Griff is an unknowing fake. Probably Illyrio's son. My speculation is the Pisswater Prince's tale is in part right, and the real father turned up in search of more Arbor Gold and Varys hears the tale before killing the man. His contacts track Ashara and find out Aegon is dead, and make Ashara an offer. That offer is revenge against Robert and House Lannister, and the distraught and guilt ridden Ashara takes the bait.

Ygrain, you asked for answers in an area we can only speculate upon, so take my over long explanation as a sign of respect. I wouldn't have gone into this territory upon many other poster's request. I don't ask you to agree with my crackpot theory, somedays I don't myself, but for whatever it is worth to you, here is my attempt to answer your questions.

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10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

All good questions, of course. My speculation is that Martin doesn't plan on withholding the information about Lemore's eye color for much longer. Much longer in terms of from the introduction of her character to the reveal of her eye color in the next book. I won't speculate on when the next book actually comes out. If she is Ashara, I would think the time of revealing her identity would come with a meeting of Lemore with someone who can say who she is. That could be with Connington, or it could be with Doran himself. I don't think it likely that Arianne would recognize her. Although she could notice her eye color without recognizing her as Ashara. Another possibility is she is recognized by the besieging commander of Storm's End, Mathis Rowan.

But that's it - he shouldn't be withholding the information at all - I mean, not completely, that's not his way. His mastery is in concealing the information in plain sight, in a way that leaves space for doubt; he tells without actually telling. "Stone beast breathing shadow fire", how many theories are there out there? He could have let Tyrion mention that Lemore's eyes are notable in some way, in certain light, without specifying. Thus we would know something is going on but still be left in the dark what exactly.

10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Is it bad writing? I don't think so, but we may have to differ on that question. I think there is a plausible reason to why Tyrion does not describe Lemore's eyes in the scene in question, but that does not mean he goes throughout their voyage together without noticing her eyes. That would be bad writing. However, we must then ask ourselves whether or not that clue should inform Tyrion of Lemore's true identity? I don't think we have any reason to think it would. We as readers will take note of violet eyes and weigh their significance, but who should Tyrion know that fits the age and description - including violet eyes? He is too young to have really known Ashara. He may or may not have heard of her. If so, should he have the same reaction the reader has to put violet eyes and Ashara's name together? I doubt it.

No, Tyrion certainly shouldn't be able to identify her as Ashara, but the information should be there for the benefit of the reader, just like Alleras' widow peak, just like the blue roses in Ned's PoVs. This is again something that GRRM does, presenting the reader with information the sigificance of which characters are unaware of.

10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

If anything, he should wonder if Young Griff and Lemore are related. Which would raise the possibility she is a Targaryen, but she is too old for any Targaryen we, or Tyrion, should know about. Perhaps, Tyrion thinks she may be "Aegon's" mother and part of the attempt to pass him off as the dead prince. If so, there still isn't anything that points to Ashara from Tyrion's perspective. I don't think the eye color he has surely noticed over the long time together aboard the Shy Maid is clue enough to solve the mystery of Lemore for Tyrion.

That's exactly my line of thought. A purple-eyed boy who is not who he claims he is, and a purple-eyed middle-aged woman with stretchmarks: it begs pondering whether the two may be related. Yet, this line of thought is completely missing.

- Mind you, I'm not saying that Tyrion should identify Ashara like he did Aegon and JonCon. My point is that if Lemore is Ashara and therefore has purple eyes, in this particular surrounding, with these particular characters around, Tyrion should spend some time trying to figure out how she fits in, without really arriving at a conclusion.

10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I think I have dealt with this in my first response. If not, please point out what I missed and I'll respond later.

Well, if I understood correctly, you claimed that we don't get all the necessary information because when looking at Lemore, Tyrion is interested in her, eh, lower features. My counterpoint was that when she says that she "must needs hide", his sexual interest is overruled by intellectual, and therefore the hormonal blinders are no longer in place and in his internal monologue, something about her notable eyes should pop up.

BTW, nothing we have been told about Ashara so far indicates why she should be careful about hiding her identity, she's presumed dead for almost twenty years and no-one ever had a reason to look for her.

10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Wonderful questions. First, there is no SSM that I know of that states where Ashara was during the rebellion. In fact, I think Martin has gone out of his way to leave that question unanswered. His famous quote about Ashara not being "nailed to the floor" in Dorne is about as specific as he gets.

It was "nailed to the floor of Starfall", IIRC, and while he doesn't state where exactly she was, I am fairly sure there was some statement where she wasn't - only, I cannot remember the phrasing and don't have the time to look it up, so I don't know if it was during the Rebellion or just during the Sack, with Elia or in KL.

10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

To the rest, all I can answer with is speculation. I once put out my favorite "crackpot" theory on all of this and called it the "Two Princes in the Tower."  I call it crackpot because, while it can't be ruled out, there is little to nothing outside of motive to support it. 

/snip/

Ygrain, you asked for answers in an area we can only speculate upon, so take my over long explanation as a sign of respect. I wouldn't have gone into this territory upon many other poster's request. I don't ask you to agree with my crackpot theory, somedays I don't myself, but for whatever it is worth to you, here is my attempt to answer your questions.

Thank you for going into such lengths for me, and there are certainly things I can agree with, like Varys being the last person on the planetos Rhaegar and Elia would trust. I also agree that they would want to get their children away from KL; what I am not sure about is how Ashara would escape detection. Do you think that Rhaegar knew some secrets of the Red Keep?

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15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I recall @Fire Eater's thread. And your's too. The Kingswood Brotherhood stuff is in the text for a reason, but I think explaining Jaime's early exploits at a young age, giving Arthur Dayne a little war to wage, and setting a precedent for the Brotherhood without Banners satisfy the Kingswood Brotherhood's inclusion in the greater story. Having it in there, the George was able to develop it and a few other characters based on it, giving us Merrett Frey, Ulmer, and Oswyn Longneck the Thrice-Hanged.

Oh, it certainly is a good fleshing out stuff but you're forgetting one thing: out of all the notable members of the brotherhood, Wenda is the only one unaccounted for, and that I call mightily suspicious, along with the repetition of Merrett's mishap with her.

 

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 

The connection with the Toynes is what I find most attractive about the theory, though, and that's why I think Wenda the White Fawn should be considered the most likely candidate among  Ashara Dayne, Tyene Sand's mum, and the Mad Maid. 

That too. And if Wenda spent some time with GC before becoming Lemore, it would explain why she needs to hide her Westerosi identity - she might be recognized as a GC member (and perhaps even as the infamous outlaw, for whose head there still might be coin?) and thus draw undue attention.

 

16 hours ago, Sasha said:

Maybe seing a baby and knowing his brother has died was enough to push her to suicide. After all, she was quite young and she lost a lot in a few months. 

That's what I think, too. There are many options, of course, but some people are simply more fragile than others. It happens.

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On 8/16/2017 at 6:38 PM, SFDanny said:

As a long time advocate of the Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne theory, I agree. Ashara needs to be alive to understand the huge hole in Aegon's (aka Young Griff) story. For five years after he left Westeros Jon Connington knew nothing of Aegon and lived his life in exile as a member of the Golden Company. Yet someone convinced him that the child who we came to know of as Young Griff, really was Rhaegar's son Aegon. Who vouched for and convinced him the child was who he thinks he is? Not Varys, who was his golden prince's enemy. Not a Pentoshi cheese merchant. It has to be someone he trusts. And it has to be someone Prince Doran trusts, or this plot dies without Dorne's support. Lady Ashara is one of the only characters who can fit this role. She has to tell both Connington, and in the future, the Princes of Dorne that she left Starfall with Aegon to protect him from Robert. Whether any of that is true or not is another question, but she is the only character who makes this story believable to the right people.

Ive always had a n issue with the fact that Aegon is real. I don't know if he is really Asharas son but it feels more likely then him being the real Aegon. I liked one theory that she is living in Greywater watch as Howlands wife and mother of his children. Someone has a theory that Meera could be Jons twin, right age and similar features. 

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On 8/15/2017 at 11:51 PM, Ckram said:

It reminds me Tywin's words about Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling, a girl he also disonored: "Robb Stark is his father's son" (ASOS, Tyrion III). It might be Tywin alluding to the repeatence of what happened between Eddard and Ashara (I mean, that they suposedly had sex and Eddard promised to marry her - but the rebellion politics made him marry Catelyn instead).

Ned and Ashara were around 18yo. It's not unlikely to act irresponsibly at that age, specially if you're in love. But I agree that a betrothal sounds more like Ned Stark.

I like this idea. But I think that Ned would react even worse to Tywin offering the Targaryen corpses to Robert if he knew that the dead baby was in fact half-Stark (or a bastard of his own).

If we assume that Young Griff is in fact Illyrio's son with Serra, what contradiction would there be in speculating that the baby murdered by Gregor Clegane was in fact son of Ashara?

According to semi-canon sources and calculation, Darkstar was born years before the Tourney of Harrenhal.

Isn't he in his 20's when he attacks Marcella?

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On 8/23/2017 at 5:34 PM, Ygrain said:

Wenda the White Fawn. The Kingswood brotherhood gets a lot of attention in the last book, the story of her branding the asses of noble prisoners is even repeated (it's in the Merret epilogue and then in a Jaime chapter when he talks to Merret's family), and her fate is unknown (unlike the other notable members). The origin of her nickname is unknown; white could refer to septa's robes (BTW, Lemore taught YG about the Faith - such a task should be done by someone well-versed in the doctrine, not merely its follower like Ashara, about whom we have no mention as being religious). Furthermore, if Wenda was a former septa, then in the parallel between the Kingswood brotherhood and Robin Hood's merry band, she is Lady Marian and Friar Tuck, who otherwise doesn't have a parallel. We know that Lemore had given birth; being a soiled septa - or made to become one because of being soiled - would explain her rather personal vendetta against the young noblemen as proxies for the one who seduced and dumped her. We also have an account of Barristan rescuing Jeyne Swann and her septa from the brotherhood - well, wouldn't it be a cute chance for Wenda to save her ass, seeing that the brotherhood was doomed? It was speculated that Wenda may have been of House Cafferen (sigil of two fawns), which is a Stormland house, just like house Swann, which would allow for a possibility for the two women being acquainted and Jeyne thus cooperating to help Wenda. Finally, there is a possible connection through the Toynes - Simon Toyne was the brotherhood's Robin Hood, the GC was led by Miles Toyne who was on the Aegon plot.

The original idea is FireEater's, I only elaborated on it a bit.

I quite like it. Fits together quite nicely and is definitely has fewer problems than some other Lemore theories. I don't know what it will mean for the story going forward and I'm still not convinced Lemore has to be anyone of notoriety but interesting and robust idea.

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