Jaqen H'ghar's nonsense

[bemused]

Jaqen was making up a story that might make sense to Arya ... it just doesn't completely hold up for us, having read all that we've read.

Here's a thread I wrote  eons ago...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/81177-syrio-the-phoenix/

Most of my thoughts on the matter are in the OP.

I think Harrenhall Jaqen is more likely to have been Syrio than not - but cage Jaqen was really a dangerous criminal.

The scene of the fire at the holdfast is every bit as deserving of a good picking apart as the assassination attempt on Jon. (And neither are as they appear initially, IMO)

More thoughts are developed throughout the thread, but cutting to the chase.. I'd say Syrio was probably reccommended by Tobho Mott, who shows signs of being connected to the HoB&W . The FM was not on a mission to kill but acting in the capacity of a spy. (I know Ned doesn't meet Tobho personally until later, but he wouldn't have been out searching for a fencing master personally. He would likely have sent someone like Jory.. and Tobho's would have been an excellent place to start.)

An FM could simply walk out the gate of KL (as we know Barristan did), become one of Yoren's other recruits at a time of his choosing. He'd be in a position to observe Arya's interactions with cage Jaqen. Remember the three men Yoren sent to the watchtower survived the attack and one of them tried to teach the kids some useful skills before departing.

He may have vanished to become Harrenhall Jaqen. ... better able to help Arya before he had to move on to his next mission in Oldtown.

 

[Jon Fossoway]

I thought that Jaqen was paying HIS debt to Rahloo. He, as a faceless assasin, wasn't supposed to cheat death via a deus ex machina Arya. I would suspect that the Faceless Men have their own protocols when confronting death, and this do not apply to regular people.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

2 hours ago, Jon Fossoway said:

I thought that Jaqen was paying HIS debt to Rahloo.

Yea. I think the OP is missing the point of what Jaquen says. He is an FM and he has his beliefs. It doesn't mean everyone in AWoIaF has to believe them. Also, in this case Arya actively chooses to save him and the other two, at considerable risk to her life. When Catelyn stopped in front of the toddler, she was just acting on instinct anyway. 

[The Mother of The Others]

11 hours ago, bemused said:

I think Harrenhall Jaqen is more likely to have been Syrio than not -

...The FM was not on a mission to kill but acting in the capacity of a spy... An FM could simply walk out the gate of KL (as we know Barristan did)

The Faceless, embedded in the Stark camp.  Makes ya wonder why they'd seek to foster Arya.  Because... the Faceless cult is part of the extended Weirwood family?   They honor / include / use weirwood for witchy gain...... and possibly they owe the Starks, or their interests are allied with the old gods' agenda, so they feel beholden to look after their closest neighbor kingdom family the Starks, for some of those Old Plotline reasons that haven't come to light yet (regarding what went down with the Night King.)   

Uhhhh, more real politic now, they maybe foresaw a while back that Westeros would default on their loans, and that it'd be necessary to shake down the kingdoms and take control of Westerosi assets.  So.... infiltrating the Stark family looks like a forward thinking move then.   That's one domino flipped.  Same as they're doing with that guy offering food to the night's watch.

[Nevets]

19 hours ago, bemused said:

Jaqen was making up a story that might make sense to Arya ... it just doesn't completely hold up for us, having read all that we've read.

Here's a thread I wrote  eons ago...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/81177-syrio-the-phoenix/

Most of my thoughts on the matter are in the OP.

I think Harrenhall Jaqen is more likely to have been Syrio than not - but cage Jaqen was really a dangerous criminal.

The scene of the fire at the holdfast is every bit as deserving of a good picking apart as the assassination attempt on Jon. (And neither are as they appear initially, IMO)

More thoughts are developed throughout the thread, but cutting to the chase.. I'd say Syrio was probably reccommended by Tobho Mott, who shows signs of being connected to the HoB&W . The FM was not on a mission to kill but acting in the capacity of a spy. (I know Ned doesn't meet Tobho personally until later, but he wouldn't have been out searching for a fencing master personally. He would likely have sent someone like Jory.. and Tobho's would have been an excellent place to start.)

An FM could simply walk out the gate of KL (as we know Barristan did), become one of Yoren's other recruits at a time of his choosing. He'd be in a position to observe Arya's interactions with cage Jaqen. Remember the three men Yoren sent to the watchtower survived the attack and one of them tried to teach the kids some useful skills before departing.

He may have vanished to become Harrenhall Jaqen. ... better able to help Arya before he had to move on to his next mission in Oldtown.

 

I read the OP.  Call me quite unconvinced. 

I don't see any reason for Tobho to be HoB&W, nor do I see why he would be a source of info.  Barristan would be logical, and probably men who had kids with training.  Jory could ask around.

I doubt that Syrio was one of the three survivors.  They hung around only a short time before abandoning the children to their fate, which was to be captured by Clegane, a logical result.  I can't imagine Syrio abandoning her like that.  Nor did he give her that much help at Harrenhal.  What she really wanted was to go to Riverrun, which he refused.

I think Jaqen returned to Braavos, told them about Arya and the coin, and got new orders for Oldtown (I think Balon was someone else).  The Kindly Man didn't seem too surprised to see Arya, and knew immediately who she really was.

That's all I have time for now.

[bemused]

On 4/4/2018 at 0:54 PM, The Mother of The Others said:

Uhhhh, more real politic now, they maybe foresaw a while back that Westeros would default on their loans, and that it'd be necessary to shake down the kingdoms and take control of Westerosi assets.  So.... infiltrating the Stark family looks like a forward thinking move then.   That's one domino flipped.  Same as they're doing with that guy offering food to the night's watch.

Yeah, questions about the political motivations of Braavos are fascinating to me. Just to scratch the surface, although Robert was keeping up payments, he was also spending profligately and it would have been obvious that he wasn't really interested in the business of governance. Being able to get close enough to observe his new Hand would have been important. I suspect that when Robert came to power, Braavosi policy was affected dramatically. Would the appointment of Ned bring change, and how would that dovetail (or not) with the Braavosi political scene ?

Without taking us down that rabbit hole, I think it's safe to say that there would be reason to get an agent as close as possible to Ned.

On 4/4/2018 at 9:13 PM, Nevets said:

I read the OP.  Call me quite unconvinced. 

I don't see any reason for Tobho to be HoB&W, nor do I see why he would be a source of info.  Barristan would be logical, and probably men who had kids with training.  Jory could ask around.

I doubt that Syrio was one of the three survivors.  They hung around only a short time before abandoning the children to their fate, which was to be captured by Clegane, a logical result.  I can't imagine Syrio abandoning her like that.  Nor did he give her that much help at Harrenhal.  What she really wanted was to go to Riverrun, which he refused.

I think Jaqen returned to Braavos, told them about Arya and the coin, and got new orders for Oldtown (I think Balon was someone else).  The Kindly Man didn't seem too surprised to see Arya, and knew immediately who she really was.

That's all I have time for now.

Regarding Tobho, there are a few descriptions that create a tantalising parallel with the HoB&W, which I'll come to. First though, we have this - Around his neck was a heavy silver chain and a sapphire as large as a pigeon's egg. - so, if you accept the many examples of sapphires representing secrets or deceptions, there is something we don't yet know about Tobho and judging from the size of the sapphire, it's something pretty big. As for the parallels, we have the black and white (ebony and weirwood) double doors of the HoB&W, while Tobho's double doors ... showed a hunting scene carved in ebony and weirwood. Arya meets the kindly man attended by the waif. Ned meets - a slim young serving girl (who) took quick note of Ned's badge and the sigil on his doublet, and the master came hurrying out,... Tobho's house is huge, has three stories, and the upper stories -  loomed over the narrow street ... reminiscent of the way the upper stories of the houses in Braavos overhang the canals....We don't see, nor does he ever mention a family and while his young apprentices may live with him, I doubt all his journeyman blacksmiths do.The Street of Steel is a very busy place with all sorts of people coming and going. Tobho's thriving ,legitimate business would be ideal to double as a sort of FM field office - a place to send and receive messages, etc..... I'm not saying it's proof positive, but a very real possibility.

Ned wouldn't ask Barristan. He respects him but doesn't know him at all well. He's trying to keep the hiring of a fencing master secret, so he wouldn't be asking anyone around the Red Keep. I doubt many kids (overwhelmingly boys) in Westeros receive training in a Braavosi style of fighting. It wouldn't be very practical for the lives they expect to live.

I imagine Jory and others did ask around, and as I said, the Street of Steel might be a good place to look for knowledge of arms masters with unusual skills. When Ned goes to Tobho's, Jory tells him Alyn knows the way. So Alyn, at least had been there before.

Syrio's recommendation wasn't necessarily given in person ... Ned would have interviewed him anyway, once he was found.

As for the men in the watchtower, if a faceless man found himself in that guise in the middle of that war (behind enemy lines, as it were) , who needed to survive to move on to his next mission (or report to Braavos and then move on), but at the same time wanted to help his former pupil as much as he could, which would be the better option : remain a common poacher (or whatever), stay with the kids and likely be captured himself, or be taken on by Lorch, as he probably saw Rorge and Biter were.

Anyway, I agree that he had nothing to do with Balon's death (I doubt any FM was involved). I don't think he necessarily returned to the HoB&W, just perhaps. If he was Syrio, he had plenty of time to notify the KM that he had accepted the position with Ned. Arya is the first to name herself "Arya of House Stark" after trying out a few aliases on the KM. As a master of the lying game, he knows when she's lying and when she's not. If the FM went straight to Oldtown as a spy, it could have been a prearranged mission : x months in KL and X amount of time in Oldtown, gathering as much intelligence as he could. Either is possible.

[Geddus]

On 28/3/2018 at 0:06 AM, Prince of the North said:

My theory has always been that Jaqen was purposely in the Black Cells at that time because he wanted to be sent to the Wall.  After all, there would be no better way to infiltrate the Nights Watch.

There is a better way: show up at Castle Black and volunteer. Why the ruse? Anyone can join the Night's Watch.

[Prince of the North]

3 hours ago, Geddus said:

There is a better way: show up at Castle Black and volunteer. Why the ruse? Anyone can join the Night's Watch.

Nah, anyone volunteering for the NW had better have an airtight backstory.   Hardly anyone volunteers anymore and those who do are practically always nobles doing so for "noble" reasons.  Much easier and, more importantly,  much more anonymous to infiltrate the NW as just another lowly criminal among many.

[Lost Melnibonean]

14 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Nah, anyone volunteering for the NW had better have an airtight backstory.   Hardly anyone volunteers anymore and those who do are practically always nobles doing so for "noble" reasons.  Much easier and, more importantly,  much more anonymous to infiltrate the NW as just another lowly criminal among many.

In a brochure printed for the Faceless Men circulated around the Free Cities and the eastern ports of Westeros, there is a remark about "airtight backstories" being among their specialities. 

[Prince of the North]

6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

In a brochure printed for the Faceless Men circulated around the Free Cities and the eastern ports of Westeros, there is a remark about "airtight backstories" being among their specialities. 

That's good because, as I said, anyone actually trying to infiltrate the NW by volunteering had better be a noble (or everyone's gonna think they're insane and, thus, they will be highly scrutinized).  And, if they've done their homework at all, they'd better be trying to pose as a northern noble (or, at least, from a noble family with First Men ties, etc.)  So, if they're posing as a northern noble, there's a great chance their background/family is going to be more well-known in the north (and, thus, the more likely their story will fall apart under scrutiny).  

Yeah, safe to say it would be much, much easier to infiltrate the NW as a common criminal who really had no choice.  These sorts of new members of the NW are far more likely to generally be met with a collective "meh".

So, I'm sure the next thought many may have is "Well, why couldn't Jaqen just get himself thrown in jail again somewhere else?"  A good question but forgetting the fact that there's absolutely no guarantee any criminal is going to get the "choice" to take the black.  That would certainly be a big gamble.  But getting oneself thrown into the Black Cells in Kings Landing prior to a Lord Paramount being tried for treason?  Hmm...that's intriguing.  Maybe since he's a high noble of the realm there'd be a good chance he'd be allowed to take the black?  There's precedent.  And, if that's the case, there's certainly precedent for the Black Cells being emptied to provide an "honor guard" for a high noble on their way to the Wall.

That might do the trick for someone trying to infiltrate the NW for some reason   

 Now, all that being said, this is just my theory until I get more info to work with from the author.  I am in no way stating this as fact. 

[Geddus]

1 hour ago, Prince of the North said:

Nah, anyone volunteering for the NW had better have an airtight backstory.

I don't think that's even remotely suggested in the text. I don't see wandering crows like Yoren running background checks on the few people they manage to recruit - if anything, because that would be basically impossible.

Edit because I forgot: what would even be the point for the NW to do something like that? So that they don't risk having criminals in their ranks?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

4 hours ago, Geddus said:

There is a better way: show up at Castle Black and volunteer. Why the ruse? Anyone can join the Night's Watch.

 

1 hour ago, Prince of the North said:

Nah, anyone volunteering for the NW had better have an airtight backstory.

"None of your fucking business" would be airtight enough, though.

1 hour ago, Prince of the North said:

Hardly anyone volunteers anymore and those who do are practically always nobles doing so for "noble" reasons.  Much easier and, more importantly,  much more anonymous to infiltrate the NW as just another lowly criminal among many.

Let's see.

Jaqen was locked in a cage with Rorge and Biter, attracting everyone's attention. (Plus, he almost burned alive there, which sounds at least a little inconvenient). Remember the cage? Remember Biter? I sure do. It would be hard not to.

On the other hand, in Yoren's party there were also - forgive my fragile memory, I must copy & paste from the appendix - "—PRAED, CUTJACK, WOTH, REYSEN, QYLE, recruits bound for the Wall". Remember them? Remember the amount of attention they attracted? Remember their "airtight backstories"? Do you remember a single one of those volunteers, anything about him, without consulting the books or the wiki? I admit that I don't.

Now, which one looks more convenient for ninja work: locked up in a cage with Rorge and Biter, or passing as one of "PRAED, CUTJACK, JAQEN, WOTH, REYSEN, QYLE, recruits bound for the Wall"?

[Prince of the North]

1 hour ago, Geddus said:

I don't think that's even remotely suggested in the text. I don't see wandering crows like Yoren running background checks on the few people they manage to recruit - if anything, because that would be basically impossible.

Edit because I forgot: what would even be the point for the NW to do something like that? So that they don't risk having criminals in their ranks?

Um, do you think Jaqen was trying to get to the Wall and infiltrate the NW?  Because if you don't then there's no point to even engage on this.  If you do, I hold that it would be far more difficult to infiltrate the NW by volunteering than it would be to simply show up as another lowly criminal.  The reason it would be harder to do by volunteering is because practically no one volunteers anymore.  Anyone who does had better have a story that holds up to scrutiny.  BUT, criminals showing up don't seem to be looked at twice.

ETA:  I see I am making a mistake here because I am talking about travelling to the Wall and then volunteering.  I don't think that would be that easy.  However,  volunteering for a recruiting wandering crow would work pretty well, too (if one could pass themselves off as having a good reason for volunteering for the NW - which a faceless man could, of course).

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Prince of the North said:

That's good because, as I said, anyone actually trying to infiltrate the NW by volunteering had better be a noble (or everyone's gonna think they're insane and, thus, they will be highly scrutinized).  And, if they've done their homework at all, they'd better be trying to pose as a northern noble (or, at least, from a noble family with First Men ties, etc.)  So, if they're posing as a northern noble, there's a great chance their background/family is going to be more well-known in the north (and, thus, the more likely their story will fall apart under scrutiny).  

Yeah, safe to say it would be much, much easier to infiltrate the NW as a common criminal who really had no choice.  These sorts of new members of the NW are far more likely to generally be met with a collective "meh".

So, I'm sure the next thought many may have is "Well, why couldn't Jaqen just get himself thrown in jail again somewhere else?"  A good question but forgetting the fact that there's absolutely no guarantee any criminal is going to get the "choice" to take the black.  That would certainly be a big gamble.  But getting oneself thrown into the Black Cells in Kings Landing prior to a Lord Paramount being tried for treason?  Hmm...that's intriguing.  Maybe since he's a high noble of the realm there'd be a good chance he'd be allowed to take the black?  There's precedent.  And, if that's the case, there's certainly precedent for the Black Cells being emptied to provide an "honor guard" for a high noble on their way to the Wall.

That might do the trick for someone trying to infiltrate the NW for some reason   

 Now, all that being said, this is just my theory until I get more info to work with from the author.  I am in no way stating this as fact. 

The biggest problem with assuming that the faceless man whose life was saved by Arya wanted to go to the Wall is that he did not end up going to the Wall. 

[Geddus]

27 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Um, do you think Jaqen was trying to get to the Wall and infiltrate the NW?  Because if you don't then there's no point to even engage on this.  If you do, I hold that it would be far more difficult to infiltrate the NW by volunteering than it would be to simply show up as another lowly criminal.  The reason it would be harder to do by volunteering is because practically no one volunteers anymore.  Anyone who does had better have a story that holds up to scrutiny.  BUT, criminals showing up don't seem to be looked at twice.

No, I don't, but I thought that was the point of the discussion. It seems to me that your claim that it would be difficult to volunteer is directly contradicted by the text, so his supposed plan doesn't make much sense.

Also, when Jaqen was freed he didn't go to the Wall, he went the opposite direction.

[Prince of the North]

34 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

"None of your fucking business" would be airtight enough, though.

But that's not a backstory and all it would do is invite more scrutiny to someone who absolutely does not want scrutiny (if you think Jaqen was trying to infiltrate the NW - which I do).

Quote

Let's see.

Jaqen was locked in a cage with Rorge and Biter, attracting everyone's attention. (Plus, he almost burned alive there, which sounds at least a little inconvenient). Remember the cage? Remember Biter? I sure do. It would be hard not to.

On the other hand, in Yoren's party there were also - forgive my fragile memory, I must copy & paste from the appendix - "—PRAED, CUTJACK, WOTH, REYSEN, QYLE, recruits bound for the Wall". Remember them? Remember the amount of attention they attracted? Remember their "airtight backstories"? Do you remember a single one of those volunteers, anything about him, without consulting the books or the wiki? I admit that I don't.

Now, which one looks more convenient for ninja work: locked up in a cage with Rorge and Biter, or passing as one of "PRAED, CUTJACK, JAQEN, WOTH, REYSEN, QYLE, recruits bound for the Wall"?

First, I'm talking about attention/scrutiny at the Wall.  They're not there by a long shot yet.  I maintain that mostly poor, old, and/or sick recruits/volunteers like them would be scrutinized to about the same extent as criminals like Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter (i.e. not much at all and certainly not as much as a noble) because they don't seem to have much other choice.  Now, admittedly, I was thinking of Jaqen travelling to the Wall and volunteering then.  That would be how a noble would do it and that would invite a lot of scrutiny (thus, needing an airtight backstory).  Now that I think of it, he could have simply waited for another recruiting mission to the Wall after he left Harrenhall and volunteered for that, I guess.  But how long might that take and what to do in the meantime?

I guess it all comes down to whether one believes Jaqen wanted to get to the Wall somehow or if it was all just due to random chance that he met Arya and set her on the road to the HoBaW.  For now, I think he wanted to get to the Wall because I believe he's looking for forbidden dragon lore written by Septon Barth.  I think the remote library at the Wall presided over for 60+ years by a Targaryen maester would be considered a decent place to search.  But I think his plans changed when the group going to the Wall was broken up, so he went with plan B: The Citadel.  That may also be one of the few places where those forbidden Septon Barth dragon writings could still exist under lock and key.  Because we can be reasonably sure that it is Jaqen at Oldtown because of the similarly described face-changing reveals we were shown at Harrenhall and Old Town.  So, what was he doing heading for the Wall and now why is he in Old Town?  And, perhaps most importantly, what does he need that master key for?          

[Prince of the North]

6 minutes ago, Geddus said:

No, I don't, but I thought that was the point of the discussion. It seems to me that your claim that it would be difficult to volunteer is directly contradicted by the text, so his supposed plan doesn't make much sense.

Also, when Jaqen was freed he didn't go to the Wall, he went the opposite direction.

Yeah, I see I was making a mistake here that I tried to clarify in the post above.  Sorry about that.  I was not being clear enough about thinking, specifically, that it would be unusual for someone to just walk up to the Wall and volunteer.  But it seems poor, old, sick etc. people who generally don't seem to have many other prospects still do volunteer to go with wandering crows. 

And, yes, it's all just speculation.  I'm just musing and trying to find a way to fit the pieces together...but maybe the pieces don't fit together?  Only time will tell.    

[Prince of the North]

39 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The biggest problem with assuming that the faceless man whose life was saved by Arya wanted to go to the Wall is that he did not end up going to the Wall. 

Sure!  Unless* he was trying to find something that could possibly exist at the Wall or...somewhere else

*And, for the record, I'm not assuming anything.  I'm speculating.  It's a theory, nothing more.

ETA: Triple post!  Sorry!

[Lost Melnibonean]

37 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Sure!  Unless* he was trying to find something that could possibly exist at the Wall or...somewhere else

*And, for the record, I'm not assuming anything.  I'm speculating.  It's a theory, nothing more.

ETA: Triple post!  Sorry!

It is an intriguing notion. Early in Clash, Samwell tells us there are books at the Wall that not even the Maesters have at the Citadel. And in Storm, after the faceless man, left Harrenhal, we see Roose Bolton burn a book. And finally in Feast we see the dude at the Citadel. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

38 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

But that's not a backstory and all it would do is invite more scrutiny to someone who absolutely does not want scrutiny (if you think Jaqen was trying to infiltrate the NW - which I do).

What scrutiny, though? Scrutinize how?

There's no paper trail to follow. There's no people to ask (what would the questions even be?). He won't be sending nor receiving any mail so they could try to read it. And there's no prize at the end: whatever secrets the new recruit might have, they'll be worthless. Once at the Wall, black brethren are untouchable by law or vengeance. He can't be turned in. He can't be blackmailed. So, why bother? They'd pry a few times, pushed by regular idle curiosity, and leave it.

On the other hand, a man Yoren judged to be so dangerous that he needed to be locked up in a cage, at the Wall should enjoy extra attention from superior officers. Maybe of the "that man doesn't go anywhere alone until Lord Commander says otherwise" variety. And he'll still get all the idle curiosity.