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Skahaz mo Kandaq

Jon will never be king.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

 

That is doubly wrong, actually. Being king doesn't mean you have to desire power and do anything to achieve and maintain in. Kings usually inherit power. They are born to rule, never mind their abilities and character traits. If Jon ended up being king then because of his royal Targaryen blood, not because he is such a competent guy. Westeros isn't a meritocracy, and Jon himself would be another proof of that.

 

So you think his bloodline made him King in the North??  His bloodline made him Lord Commander?  He was chosen by the people around him for those roles, "having Ned Stark's blood" was secondary to that.

As far as your "doubly wrong" comment, I think you might not have a good understanding of leadership.  A person who is asked to lead is far better than someone who has to convince you they should lead...or worse, force you. Choosing someone shows trust, admiration, faith, and loyalty...all things needed in a leader.  I agree that the tradition of bloodlines is a terrible way to establish leadership, as that is entitled leadership, probably the worst of them all.

If Jon survives this conflict, and the North has already thrust leadership upon him...do you believe the rest of Westeros would say "great job leading the known world through the greatest threat in history, and protecting us all from certain death, now lets put Gendry (or whoever) on the Iron Throne because he is Robert's son."?  

I think it would be the same as when he was chosen for King in the North...the Targaryen bloodline will not matter, they will choose him for who he is and what he has done rather than "more of the same".

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1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Where's this idea that Jon isn't stern coming from? He exhibited plenty of sternness during his tenure as Lord Commander IMO.

Jon was erratic and practiced applied that sternness inconsistently in the books.  What he did to Slynt in the books was an insult to justice.  He let the worst criminal in Mance Rayder walk after killing a sworn brother of the watch for a comparatively minor offense.  There is no defense for Jon's poor judgment, hence, the show decided to leave that matter out entirely.  Even the show's version of Jon exhibits bad judgment.  He deserted to join Robb's war/rebellion.  He is proven an ineffective battle field commander.  It really was ridiculous that he got elected "king" in the north.  It was Baelish and Sansa who beat the Boltons.  Jon did nothing effective in that battle.  

 

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I agree about Jon's incompetence,  but never underestimate the power of fanservice. King Jon and Queen Daenerys will rule the seven kingdoms and have triplets named Tyrion, Eddard and Lyanna. 

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46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you have a king who doesn't want to be king you get a king like Robert. Who doesn't give a shit, dreaming about being some sort of hedge knight traveling the world.

Very true. 

In Jon's case he would be a better fit to replace Mance Rayder and lead the free folk to the other side of the wall after all is settled with the night's king.  

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Guys, all of Tyrion's ideas have so far served the interests of Jaime and Cersei.  He now sends everyone to go wight hunting.  A dangerous task.  I think that little guy is trying to get everyone killed so his lion family can stay in power.  Might be it's him who takes the throne in the end.  I am starting to dislike Tyrion and his ideas.  It might be time to set him aside and let someone else come up with plans.  Tyrion should know Cersei by now and realize his sister is not going to cooperate.  

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22 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

So you think his bloodline made him King in the North??  His bloodline made him Lord Commander?  He was chosen by the people around him for those roles, "having Ned Stark's blood" was secondary to that.

It was? That's simply not true. Jon was chosen to be Mormont's steward and squire because he was the Bastard of Winterfell. And that's also the reason why the men chose him to be Lord Commander. Had he had the background or Pyp or Green he would have gotten nothing.

22 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

As far as your "doubly wrong" comment, I think you might not have a good understanding of leadership.  A person who is asked to lead is far better than someone who has to convince you they should lead...or worse, force you. Choosing someone shows trust, admiration, faith, and loyalty...all things needed in a leader.  I agree that the tradition of bloodlines is a terrible way to establish leadership, as that is entitled leadership, probably the worst of them all.

If Jon is ever 'asked' to sit the Iron Throne he will be asked by people who ask him to do that because of his Targaryen blood, because of his blood claim. Not because he earned with his deeds. If George wanted to tell the story of man who grows up to be king in the end because he such a great and exceptional person he should have told the story of a peasant who climbs the ladder. That would have been something.

But that's not Jon's story. Not even remotely. He is a royal prince cheated out of his legacy by the Starks.

22 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

If Jon survives this conflict, and the North has already thrust leadership upon him...do you believe the rest of Westeros would say "great job leading the known world through the greatest threat in history, and protecting us all from certain death, now lets put Gendry (or whoever) on the Iron Throne because he is Robert's son."?

If Jon actually leads the armies of Westeros against the Others he'll already be king by that time. Nobody is going to have to ask him to take the throne. He'll have all the power already.

22 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

I think it would be the same as when he was chosen for King in the North...the Targaryen bloodline will not matter, they will choose him for who he is and what he has done rather than "more of the same".

LOL, but that's the thing - the story that Jon is chosen king because of his merits doesn't make any sense in the show. He didn't even defeat Ramsay. Littlefinger did. Why didn't they make him king? He saved their ass.

The idea that a Targaryen prince ends up being chosen king by people who ignore the fact that he is a Targaryen prince makes no sense. You can't have it both ways.

And in the books most definitely not. Nobody is going to make a king there because the guy has earned it.

If Jon becomes King in the North in the books (which I actually doubt) it will be, at least in part, because of Robb's will. And that has nothing to do with Jon's merits and everything with the fact that Robb believed he is his half-brother.

The very idea that the Northmen would make an not legitimized Stark bastard their king while there is still at least one trueborn child of Eddard Stark's around is insane.

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16 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Guys, all of Tyrion's ideas have so far served the interests of Jaime and Cersei.  He now sends everyone to go wight hunting.  A dangerous task.  I think that little guy is trying to get everyone killed so his lion family can stay in power.  Might be it's him who takes the throne in the end.  I am starting to dislike Tyrion and his ideas.  It might be time to set him aside and let someone else come up with plans.  Tyrion should know Cersei by now and realize his sister is not going to cooperate.  

Mmm, based on the show alone I can almost kinda sorta see where you're coming from (I still think you're wrong though)

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7 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Jon will never be king.  For one thing, he's unfit to rule.  He's not cut out for it.  He's not smart enough and he's too crude. 

He may father a king on Daenerys though. Who knows?

7 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

That was a poor decision to put those kids in charge of the Karhold and the Last Hearth.  Those children are not capable of leading the defense against the WW and their wights.  It's a poor decision and prideful to refuse to kneel to the one person who has the resources that he needs desperately. 

It preserves the continiuity in govornance. The same families have ruled for thousands of years, rarely losing land.

7 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Jon has never won a battle that he led.  Stannis Baratheon bailed his butt from the wildlings when the savages attacked the wall.  The victory over Ramsay Bolton wasn't Jon's.  LittleFinger won that battle.  That was a victory for House Baelish because LF bailed Jon from certain defeat. (A little gratitude to LF  would have been nice and polite).  Ramsay was two steps ahead of Jon in every way in that battle.  Some people may forgive him for breaking his vows to the NW but many will not. 

Good points!

2 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

And still, he will be king so... enjoy the moment. Why else make him a true-born son Rhaegar Targaryen? He does not want to rule, which will make him the most fit to rule. All the others have wanted the crown, save Rob Stark. The Westerosi will never fully accept Daenerys as queen without her marrying into one of the great houses. And who better then Jon Snow? Not only would this solve her issue with Northern Independence. but it would unify the whole realm. The main reason the North wanted independence was because the Southern rules had no idea about life in the North, nor did they care about Northern Houses.

Does this not make sense? And once Jon Snow and the others end the White Walker threat, he will be a hero to his people. And heroes who don't actively seek out power are the ones who deserve power the most. :)

Jon is a bastard.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:
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Since they are going to make the Night King a dragonrider, too - a ridiculous plot element, by the way - the final confrontation should be Dany-Jon on their dragons vs. the Night King on his. Below them the mortal men will fight the dead while the divine Targaryens fight in the air.

Now, if I had to guess we are going to see some variation of the Battle Above the Gods Eye there. The Night King will attack Dany and Drogon and then Jon will slam into them and jump dragons while they are falling, killing the Night King with Longclaw. Either he'll deal him a mortal wound in return or Jon is going to be mortally injured during the fall.

There should be some sort of cheesy farewell scene on the ground, with Jon wishing Dany and their (unborn?) child good luck in the years to come, and then everything will be (finally) over.

 

Do someone with Taragryen Y-Dna have to father the next targaryen king or queen? Can not daenerys marry anyone she wants?

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39 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

I agree about Jon's incompetence,  but never underestimate the power of fanservice. King Jon and Queen Daenerys will rule the seven kingdoms and have triplets named Tyrion, Eddard and Lyanna. 

hopefully fanservice will not translate into the books.

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12 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Jon is a bastard.

 

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2 hours ago, Fexyr said:

He will never be king because he don't desire it, yet he would be a good, just king. 

But Westeros don't need a good king right now, Westeros need a stern king, like Dany (well, queen).  

But Dany claims she's good...

 

7 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Jon will never be king.  For one thing, he's unfit to rule.  He's not cut out for it.  He's not smart enough and he's too crude. 

That was a poor decision to put those kids in charge of the Karhold and the Last Hearth.  Those children are not capable of leading the defense against the WW and their wights.  It's a poor decision and prideful to refuse to kneel to the one person who has the resources that he needs desperately. 

 

Those kids are there in the first place to make sure their houses remain. The actual work will most likely be done by more experienced personnel.  They won't be leading any defense any time soon in practice, not without counseling from more seasoned people in any case.

On the other hand, in the show verse, Lyanna Mormont seems to be doing fine. She even stated she's going to physically fight in the battles to come, which of course is ridiculous. Who in their right mind thinks she's actually going to be able to survive for a minute? So I think the show is to blame for suggesting that super-kids exist and that it's ok for them to fight the undead and WW.

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2 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

The idea that Jon would be a good king because he doesn't want it doesn't make sense.  People who take on a job they don't like more often than not end up doing a poor job.  Jon is not fit to become king because he's never been good at ruling.  He failed at the wall.  A man who can't rule a small outfit like the Wall is the wrong man to rule over Westeros.  Jon would make a terrible king. 

Will Jon be king is a separate discussion.  Misters Benioff and Weiss might do it for the sake of fan service but it makes for bad story telling as Jon is just not any good at ruling.  I really wish they don't go in that direction.

Wait what?? Jon did so much for the night watch in such a small amount of time it was ridiculous. He captured their leader, killed him, and still was able to consolidate the wildlings, the NW and the northerners in a short amount of time.  He was able to allow wildlings south of the wall, which was unheard of, and he stopped the millennial long war between the NW and the wildlings north of the wall.

He has empathy and a conscience. Which is the quality of a great king. He treats everyone as equal. He doesnt see politics when he makes his decision. Which is a quality he inherited from Ned Stark. Also, as its said many times in the show. Many people don't like what they are great at. Rhaegar and Jon hate killing people, but they are great at it. Jon hates ruling the north, but they chose him, and it has to be done. I am more than sure that he would love to give it sansa, thats her cup of tea.

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Just now, Charlie Hustle said:

Wait what?? Jon did so much for the night watch in such a small amount of time it was ridiculous. He captured their leader, killed him, and still was able to consolidate the wildlings, the NW and the northerners in a short amount of time.  He was able to allow wildlings south of the wall, which was unheard of, and he stopped the millennial long war between the NW and the wildlings north of the wall.

He has empathy and a conscience. Which is the quality of a great king. He treats everyone as equal. He doesnt see politics when he makes his decision. Which is a quality he inherited from Ned Stark. Also, as its said many times in the show. Many people don't like what they are great at. Rhaegar and Jon hate killing people, but they are great at it. Jon hates ruling the north, but they chose him, and it has to be done. I am more than sure that he would love to give it sansa, thats her cup of tea.

He did not capture their leader nor defeated Wildlings, Stannis did that. True about him being the first (smart choice) to let the Wildlings through the wall but only for them to be slaughtered in a frontal attack on Ramsey's forces in BoB. A battle that will for eternity undermine his authority as a general and a commander; sure they did eventually win the battle, but truthfully, it was Littlefinger&Sansa that won that battle, not Jon, never him.

Also, let's see how his 'wight hunters' expedition ends, I'd say it ends up badly with again - meaning even more good (and more capable) people die for him. I do agree he's a nice guy and all, but he's no leader; literally, everything he does/touches, he f*cks it up. For ppl of Westeros, the best thing would be if he remained dead.

Ofc, this is all based on what the show has given us; book Jon might turn different (I hope).

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7 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Jon will never be king.  

He is already a king. Maybe will not be in the future, but now he is. 

7 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

That was a poor decision to put those kids in charge of the Karhold and the Last Hearth.  Those children are not capable of leading the defense against the WW and their wights.  

If they're next in the succession line, why not? They can be counselled by more experienced people and prove their loyalty.

7 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

The victory over Ramsay Bolton wasn't Jon's.  LittleFinger won that battle.  That was a victory for House Baelish because LF bailed Jon from certain defeat. (A little gratitude to LF  would have been nice and polite).  

LF doesn't deserve any gratitude, because he killed the little lord's mother and father in order to usurp their position, so that now he can appear as a hero. In fact this is monstrous as it gets. 

If him and Lysa didn't poison Jon Arryn ,for example, the man could've still been alive, and would've anyway sent an army to help little Robin's cousins to take their home back.

Hypothetically, I know, but we'll never be sure, thanks to LF. 

 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that a Targaryen prince ends up being chosen king by people who ignore the fact that he is a Targaryen prince makes no sense. You can't have it both ways.

And in the books most definitely not. Nobody is going to make a king there because the guy has earned it.

Perhaps you didnt see in episode 4 when Missandei gave her speech to Jon and Davos about them choosing Dany, not because she is the daughter of some king they never knew.

Or do you not think that is a particularly important plot point...just filler...just to fill in some gaps because they have sooo much free screen time available this season?

It is meant to draw a parallel to Jon's journey, and to show that choosing is more important than bloodlines.  The Maesters will be concerned with bloodlines, not the people.  I think your logic is flawed or you simply refuse to accept anything but your own opinion...even when the show is putting it in your face like that.

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I think Martin has written two wonderful characters who actually transcend the story - a crippled boy and a bastard boy.  There was a forum discussion about how Bran should be Lord of Winterfell and I remember clearly thinking that it would be a step down for Bran. For the same reason, Jon will never be king. He has the bloodlines, the one true claim, and the leadership experience.   But the story purpose for both Jon and Bran is to change the future and/or alter the past. They are bookends to the song of ice and fire.  Bran can never die and Jon will perform an epic heroic deed and lose his life in doing so.

*Personally, book speaking, once the war with the NK is over, I would love Jon to settle down in the North with Val and simply be free folk.

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46 minutes ago, plastic throne said:

He did not capture their leader nor defeated Wildlings, Stannis did that. True about him being the first (smart choice) to let the Wildlings through the wall but only for them to be slaughtered in a frontal attack on Ramsey's forces in BoB. A battle that will for eternity undermine his authority as a general and a commander; sure they did eventually win the battle, but truthfully, it was Littlefinger&Sansa that won that battle, not Jon, never him.

Also, let's see how his 'wight hunters' expedition ends, I'd say it ends up badly with again - meaning even more good (and more capable) people die for him. I do agree he's a nice guy and all, but he's no leader; literally, everything he does/touches, he f*cks it up. For ppl of Westeros, the best thing would be if he remained dead.

Ofc, this is all based on what the show has given us; book Jon might turn different (I hope).

Lets agree to disagree. Lets just say that he is lucky. Right place at the right time. Its always better to be lucky than good. Every initiative he set out he has succeeded. Be it luck or not. He is also doing things his way instead of traditional ways. Attacking winterfel, wasnt right, but he wasnt with the NW anymore, and he used his recruits to do so. yes he was lucky because the Vale saved his ass. He has Karma on his side.

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i honestly hope the story doesn't end with Jon being King. Not because I don't like him, just because it seems cliche. I assume that's why the show is legitimizing him (and maybe GRRM will too, no idea). But if it's just so he can be the King at the end, I will be disappointed. I also don't want him to die at the end a heroic death because he already died once, that would be weird to have a character die twice I think. Though! If GRRM does something where he is living on borrowed time after his resurrection and he dies because he runs out of time, alright I can get on board with it. (just spitballin here!)

But unfortunately, I see no other reason for D&D to legitimize him unless they plan for him to make a run at the throne (or maybe just "threaten" to make a run at the throne? IDK).

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So many possibilities.  It could be they will use the legitimacy information to solidify the unity of the North with Dany's forces.  Hell, all of them could die.  The ways of the free folk may reign over the entire continent...no kings, no queens, no bent knees.  

However it plays out, I do hope Jon survives with Dany (show) and with Val (books) to live out his life free.  

It is certainly possible he will be king though, and chosen as such.  Would he refuse it?  He thinks he should be dead...

Again, so many possibilities.

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