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Skahaz mo Kandaq

Jon will never be king.

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7 hours ago, Illiterati said:

I think there are some very strong preconceptions about what a king should be, and we have been shown some highly incompetent kings (and a queen) to date in this story.

 

Was Baratheon a good king?  Tommen?  Joffrey?

 

Anyone who has ever worked in a corporate environment knows that people make it into leadership positions who really aren't suited for those positions.

The only way to help people in those times is from a position of strength.  You don't get into that position by being soft and timid.  The exercise of power is sometimes not so nice but very much a necessity.  A typical manager will, at some point in her career, will end up firing a subordinate.  It's not pleasant but necessary. 

The show sugar-coated Robert.  There was a lot more wrong in Robert than simply "disinterest" in ruling.  Tommen was too weak.  Too soft and easily manipulated.  He was dumb.  Joffrey was worse. 

If I had to choose between Daenerys and Jon, my pick would be Daenerys.  She has proven herself capable of bettering the lives of millions of people (liberated millions of slaves) and making a lasting positive impact (ended the slave trade).  She is very shrewd and basically repurposed the Dothraki from a slave-gathering machine to one that could be used for her own cause.  Dany destroyed the old Dothraki culture in order to make a more positive people.  She is on her way to do the same to the Ironborn.  The Harpy had to go and she took down that culture in order to usher in freedom.

As to your last point, that perfectly describes Jon.  Read what his critics have been writing and posting.  He's not suited to rule.  There was no logical explanation for why they would elect that failure to lead the north.  He failed at everything he did.  He would do something stupid and have to depend on someone else to pull his ass from the fire. 

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2 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

I wish more did.  Instead we have the "Jon sucks, he should die!" and the "Dany is mad, she should die!" camps.  

yeah. i dont think dany is mad at all. i just dont like she is this season. 

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As to your last point, that perfectly describes Jon.  Read what his critics have been writing and posting.  He's not suited to rule.  There was no logical explanation for why they would elect that failure to lead the north.  He failed at everything he did.  He would do something stupid and have to depend on someone else to pull his ass from the fire. 

Ed Stark was suited to rule and he fucked up.... Jon took out those mutineers of the Nights Watch, defended the Wall, was willing to sacrifice himself by killing Mance, got the Wildlings out of Hardhome and let the Wildlings pass the wall. Of course he did a lot of stupid things, he just need some good councellors ;)....

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23 hours ago, falcotron said:

Why would that help? You've got a book written by a Maester that says he annulled Rhaegar's marriage so he could marry Lyanna. Anyone who doesn't believe that is not going to believe Howland. He's got the same problems as Bran—any knowledge he has is third-hand at best (Ned saw or read something that convinced him the marriage was legit, then told Howland about it), and both he and his source have potential reasons to be biased, not to mention that nobody alive knows the guy or what his motives are. The Maester has none of those problems. People will believe the book. That's what written documentation is for.

What I was thinking of is not the proof of the Rhaegars child's legitimacy, that is what the book is for, but, rather, the proof that Jon is that child. If that makes sense? Because those who would try and dispute Jons claim could just say- how do we know that he really was Lyanna's child and not Ned's bastard? The show continuity doesn't have Ashara Dayne as a potential candidate for Jons mother, but it does have Wylla. There has to be someone who witnessed the birth or its aftermath. Problem is, Howland Reed is sworn to House Stark and he could be seen as biased towards installing a Stark offspring on the Iron Throne. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it would be the first question I'd ask if I was supporting someone else's claim on the throne. 

One way to get around it would be to use Jons affinity with dragons- but Tyrion has that too, which is why I think A+J=T might be true.

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On 18/08/2017 at 6:20 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

You are so right.  Jon should never rule over anybody.  He will never be good at it.  He's not much of a general on the battle field.  He failed at his job at the wall and got "fired" for it.  He doesn't have the intellect for ruling. 

 

He didn't get fired. He was killed by mutineers- using that logic Jeor Mormont was a failure that got fired too. We clearly see that once the rest of the Watch is made aware of the conspiracy, they are not behind it and are disgusted by Thorne and the rest of conspirators. 

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Yeah Jon is stupid as one can get: he saved his brother up north, he saved the nights watch from a surprise attack by sacrifising his love, he saved hundreds or thousands of wildlings by letting them through the wall, he even salied to Hardhome risking his life to save even more wildlings, he united the north (the part that was willing to unite) to defeat the Boltons in a hopeless fight, then he convinced the north that the dead is the real enemy, now he tries to unite the whole seven kingdom against the white walkers risking his life on several occasions: (i) visting the dragon queen who is well know for her treachery, (ii) going beyond the wall in the biggest storm to capture a wight. But hey this is selfish and stupid! This is not the way to be a good ruler: Jon should be demnading everyone TO KNEEL and roasting alive those who don't.

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10 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

The only way to help people in those times is from a position of strength.  You don't get into that position by being soft and timid.  The exercise of power is sometimes not so nice but very much a necessity.  A typical manager will, at some point in her career, will end up firing a subordinate.  It's not pleasant but necessary. 

The show sugar-coated Robert.  There was a lot more wrong in Robert than simply "disinterest" in ruling.  Tommen was too weak.  Too soft and easily manipulated.  He was dumb.  Joffrey was worse. 

If I had to choose between Daenerys and Jon, my pick would be Daenerys.  She has proven herself capable of bettering the lives of millions of people (liberated millions of slaves) and making a lasting positive impact (ended the slave trade).  She is very shrewd and basically repurposed the Dothraki from a slave-gathering machine to one that could be used for her own cause.  Dany destroyed the old Dothraki culture in order to make a more positive people.  She is on her way to do the same to the Ironborn.  The Harpy had to go and she took down that culture in order to usher in freedom.

As to your last point, that perfectly describes Jon.  Read what his critics have been writing and posting.  He's not suited to rule.  There was no logical explanation for why they would elect that failure to lead the north.  He failed at everything he did.  He would do something stupid and have to depend on someone else to pull his ass from the fire. 

I would choose Dany over jon too.  Not only because I can't stand Jon but because Dany is the best hope for Westeros.  She has proven herself in the Bay of Dragons.  The girl is a winner.

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7 hours ago, watcher of the night said:

Yeah Jon is stupid as one can get: he saved his brother up north, he saved the nights watch from a surprise attack by sacrifising his love, he saved hundreds or thousands of wildlings by letting them through the wall, he even salied to Hardhome risking his life to save even more wildlings, he united the north (the part that was willing to unite) to defeat the Boltons in a hopeless fight, then he convinced the north that the dead is the real enemy, now he tries to unite the whole seven kingdom against the white walkers risking his life on several occasions: (i) visting the dragon queen who is well know for her treachery, (ii) going beyond the wall in the biggest storm to capture a wight. But hey this is selfish and stupid! This is not the way to be a good ruler: Jon should be demnading everyone TO KNEEL and roasting alive those who don't.

I just felt this needed to be highlighted in another post.  It baffles me how people keep saying that Jon was a failure and that he betrayed the Nights Watch. 

Its like they haven't even watched the show, or they missed the part where an army of the dead is the true enemy and the real reason the Wall was erected.  

Not to keep wildlings out.  

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16 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Individually they have flaws...  maybe together they can be great.  

This, to me, is the entire point of the story, and how the AA prophecy will be realized. 

16 hours ago, Capo Ferro said:

I've seen the "failed at his job at the wall and got fired for it" comment before and I don't get it. 

His job at the wall is not to make the members of the Night's Watch happy or to appease their prejudices, it is to be the sword in the darkness, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men, etc.  As Lord Commander he has authority to give orders to other members of the watch that must be obeyed and to impose punishment for disobedience but the fundamental nature of his job remains that which is described in the oath.  The Watch isn't a body that exists for its own benefit, it is a body that exists to protect the realms of men from the others.  He hadn't failed in that job as of the time of his death and really, hasn't failed yet. That is what he is still doing now.

:agree: 

7 hours ago, watcher of the night said:

Yeah Jon is stupid as one can get: he saved his brother up north, he saved the nights watch from a surprise attack by sacrifising his love, he saved hundreds or thousands of wildlings by letting them through the wall, he even salied to Hardhome risking his life to save even more wildlings, he united the north (the part that was willing to unite) to defeat the Boltons in a hopeless fight, then he convinced the north that the dead is the real enemy, now he tries to unite the whole seven kingdom against the white walkers risking his life on several occasions: (i) visting the dragon queen who is well know for her treachery, (ii) going beyond the wall in the biggest storm to capture a wight. But hey this is selfish and stupid! This is not the way to be a good ruler: Jon should be demnading everyone TO KNEEL and roasting alive those who don't.

This. 

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5 minutes ago, Timett sonof Timett is God said:

he's gonna make Gendry King imo.

I've had this idea since a long time (books). As unlikely and ridiculous as it maybe is, this idea keeps hovering around my head. Tickling at the edges.

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31 minutes ago, Eddard Scissorhands said:

I've had this idea since a long time (books). As unlikely and ridiculous as it maybe is, this idea keeps hovering around my head. Tickling at the edges.

omg, yes... maybe no one ever finds out that Jon would be R+L. Samwell already skipped that. Jon knows Gendry is Robert's son, later Cersei will show evidence of Gendry being born in marriage with Robert. Dany will die as last Targaryen. Jon will serve Nightswatch until he dies or he dies soon. Maybe they both die together fighting against NK. Gendry will marry Arya, Sansa will rule Winterfell with LF.

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8 hours ago, watcher of the night said:

Yeah Jon is stupid as one can get: he saved his brother up north, he saved the nights watch from a surprise attack by sacrifising his love, he saved hundreds or thousands of wildlings by letting them through the wall, he even salied to Hardhome risking his life to save even more wildlings, he united the north (the part that was willing to unite) to defeat the Boltons in a hopeless fight, then he convinced the north that the dead is the real enemy, now he tries to unite the whole seven kingdom against the white walkers risking his life on several occasions: (i) visting the dragon queen who is well know for her treachery, (ii) going beyond the wall in the biggest storm to capture a wight. But hey this is selfish and stupid! This is not the way to be a good ruler: Jon should be demnading everyone TO KNEEL and roasting alive those who don't.

I agree with everything you said but I also recognize his limits. I love Jon. He puts everyone else, and the common good before himself. He would be a great king in a perfect world without treachery and deceit, unfortunately that's not the world GRRM created. In a world like that, you have to have a bit of that type of cunning in order to survive.  He doesn't have it. He is a good, decent man as was his uncle and unfortunately that's what leads to losses in this story...

IMO, constantly risking your life as you enumerated - especially when there are other options - isn't making the case that he is suited to be King. Again, I love the guy. As big a fan as there is. But he does some pretty dumb things on occasion. 

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2 hours ago, Green Knight said:

I agree with everything you said but I also recognize his limits. I love Jon. He puts everyone else, and the common good before himself. He would be a great king in a perfect world without treachery and deceit, unfortunately that's not the world GRRM created. In a world like that, you have to have a bit of that type of cunning in order to survive.  He doesn't have it. He is a good, decent man as was his uncle and unfortunately that's what leads to losses in this story...

IMO, constantly risking your life as you enumerated - especially when there are other options - isn't making the case that he is suited to be King. Again, I love the guy. As big a fan as there is. But he does some pretty dumb things on occasion. 

Yes he does not have the cunning of Cersei or even Dany, he is "son" of Ned Stark. However, nobody else has the vision and the charisma to unite the seven kingdoms.

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16 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Yes he does not have the cunning of Cersei or even Dany, he is "son" of Ned Stark. However, nobody else has the vision and the charisma to unite the seven kingdoms.

That's a good point. I'm pulling for him. I just wish he'd settle down, get to the business of ruling and leave all the daring do, excursionary stuff to his men. . . 

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12 hours ago, watcher of the night said:

Yeah Jon is stupid as one can get: he saved his brother up north, he saved the nights watch from a surprise attack by sacrifising his love, he saved hundreds or thousands of wildlings by letting them through the wall, he even salied to Hardhome risking his life to save even more wildlings, he united the north (the part that was willing to unite) to defeat the Boltons in a hopeless fight, then he convinced the north that the dead is the real enemy, now he tries to unite the whole seven kingdom against the white walkers risking his life on several occasions: (i) visting the dragon queen who is well know for her treachery, (ii) going beyond the wall in the biggest storm to capture a wight. But hey this is selfish and stupid! This is not the way to be a good ruler: Jon should be demnading everyone TO KNEEL and roasting alive those who don't.

i agree. not the roasting part though :)

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On 16.08.2017 at 8:16 AM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Jon will never be king.  For one thing, he's unfit to rule.  He's not cut out for it.

Yet he has become the lord commander of the night watch despite the fact he wasn't really wanted to, people wants him as their leader.

 

On 16.08.2017 at 8:16 AM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

 He's not smart enough

Cercei is not smart enough.

Balon was not smart enough.

Euron is not smart enough.

Ned was not smart enough.

Robert was not smart enough.

Joffrey was not smart enough.

Aerys was not smart enough.

Dany is not smart enough.

Want more ?

On 16.08.2017 at 8:16 AM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

he's too crude. 

 

Not more so than Dany, Joffrey, Tommen.

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3 hours ago, Green Knight said:

I agree with everything you said but I also recognize his limits. I love Jon. He puts everyone else, and the common good before himself. He would be a great king in a perfect world without treachery and deceit, unfortunately that's not the world GRRM created. In a world like that, you have to have a bit of that type of cunning in order to survive.  He doesn't have it. He is a good, decent man as was his uncle and unfortunately that's what leads to losses in this story...

IMO, constantly risking your life as you enumerated - especially when there are other options - isn't making the case that he is suited to be King. Again, I love the guy. As big a fan as there is. But he does some pretty dumb things on occasion. 

hes too good to be king pretty much.

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