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Jon will never be king.

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Jon will never be king.  For one thing, he's unfit to rule.  He's not cut out for it.  He's not smart enough and he's too crude. 

That was a poor decision to put those kids in charge of the Karhold and the Last Hearth.  Those children are not capable of leading the defense against the WW and their wights.  It's a poor decision and prideful to refuse to kneel to the one person who has the resources that he needs desperately. 

Jon has never won a battle that he led.  Stannis Baratheon bailed his butt from the wildlings when the savages attacked the wall.  The victory over Ramsay Bolton wasn't Jon's.  LittleFinger won that battle.  That was a victory for House Baelish because LF bailed Jon from certain defeat. (A little gratitude to LF  would have been nice and polite).  Ramsay was two steps ahead of Jon in every way in that battle.  Some people may forgive him for breaking his vows to the NW but many will not. 

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And still, he will be king so... enjoy the moment. Why else make him a true-born son Rhaegar Targaryen? He does not want to rule, which will make him the most fit to rule. All the others have wanted the crown, save Rob Stark. The Westerosi will never fully accept Daenerys as queen without her marrying into one of the great houses. And who better then Jon Snow? Not only would this solve her issue with Northern Independence. but it would unify the whole realm. The main reason the North wanted independence was because the Southern rules had no idea about life in the North, nor did they care about Northern Houses.

Does this not make sense? And once Jon Snow and the others end the White Walker threat, he will be a hero to his people. And heroes who don't actively seek out power are the ones who deserve power the most. :)

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He will never be king because he don't desire it, yet he would be a good, just king. 

But Westeros don't need a good king right now, Westeros need a stern king, like Dany (well, queen).  

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Not to mention he is most certainly a fire wight. Although, so far, the show has made Jon appear 100% whole again. I hope they address this soon; perhaps with Jon meeting Beric and Thoros, something might finally come up about his un-dead status.

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5 minutes ago, Fexyr said:

But Westeros don't need a good king right now, Westeros need a stern king, like Dany (well, queen).  

Where's this idea that Jon isn't stern coming from? He exhibited plenty of sternness during his tenure as Lord Commander IMO.

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He is just too good for that and, anyway, he doesn't want to, so I guess you are right he will never be the king of the Seven Bloody Kingdoms. Let the power hungry b*tches squabble about it - that's their game...fucking brothers, burning people alive, bringing savages, blowing up septs and thousands of people, not actually caring about people's traditions, cultures...those are definitely smart moves worthy of decent rulers. May be the Night King is a better option after all.

I love Jon and I'm afraid that he will die in the end, anyway.

Edited by Gala

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4 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Where's this idea that Jon isn't stern coming from? He exhibited plenty of sternness during his tenure as Lord Commander IMO.

I agree. It was his stern attitude that got him killed by his black brothers.

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2 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Where's this idea that Jon isn't stern coming from? He exhibited plenty of sternness during his tenure as Lord Commander IMO.

Not like Dany, he's not. I guess stern isn't exactly the right word. 

What I meant is that I see Jon more like Ned (and Ned was too... good... to rule all Westeros????Like, he was good for the North but is different for the South + the rest of westeros), and Danys more like... Dany? Kinda ruthless? That's how I see, anyway. I'm sorry for my poor english skills xDD

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They are like ice and fire, Jon and Daenerys; thus, with both ruling, they would do good for the realm :P I ship it in the show, not in the books, though.

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The idea that Jon would be a good king because he doesn't want it doesn't make sense.  People who take on a job they don't like more often than not end up doing a poor job.  Jon is not fit to become king because he's never been good at ruling.  He failed at the wall.  A man who can't rule a small outfit like the Wall is the wrong man to rule over Westeros.  Jon would make a terrible king. 

Will Jon be king is a separate discussion.  Misters Benioff and Weiss might do it for the sake of fan service but it makes for bad story telling as Jon is just not any good at ruling.  I really wish they don't go in that direction.

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The TV Jon is just a moron. He would never be a good king the way he is portrayed. But to be honest, TV Dany wouldn't be much better.

As I see it, Jon is going to die for good in the fight against the Others, probably killing the Night King (which is going to make the wights and Others magically disappear, because, you know, that's how it is in video games and fantasy movies) but giving his life in the process of it.

Spoiler

Since they are going to make the Night King a dragonrider, too - a ridiculous plot element, by the way - the final confrontation should be Dany-Jon on their dragons vs. the Night King on his. Below them the mortal men will fight the dead while the divine Targaryens fight in the air.

Now, if I had to guess we are going to see some variation of the Battle Above the Gods Eye there. The Night King will attack Dany and Drogon and then Jon will slam into them and jump dragons while they are falling, killing the Night King with Longclaw. Either he'll deal him a mortal wound in return or Jon is going to be mortally injured during the fall.

There should be some sort of cheesy farewell scene on the ground, with Jon wishing Dany and their (unborn?) child good luck in the years to come, and then everything will be (finally) over.

That whole thing would fit perfectly with the whole resurrection story. Jon was not brought back to become king. He was brought back to defeat the Others. And when that's done he can finally die for good and all.

The whole death-and-resurrection thing is essentially giving away the ending. Neither George nor the show is going to make the zombie dude the king in the end.

With Dany and Jon likely going to marry before the end Jon might still be king consort at her side, for a brief period at least.

Edited by Lord Varys

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2 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

The idea that Jon would be a good king because he doesn't want it doesn't make sense.  People who take on a job they don't like more often than not end up doing a poor job.  Jon is not fit to become king because he's never been good at ruling.  He failed at the wall.  A man who can't rule a small outfit like the Wall is the wrong man to rule over Westeros.  Jon would make a terrible king. 

Will Jon be king is a separate discussion.  Misters Benioff and Weiss might do it for the sake of fan service but it makes for bad story telling as Jon is just not any good at ruling.  I really wish they don't go in that direction.

You seem biased. Jon failed at the wall - in the books at least - because he was not able to communicate with his underlings in a proper manner regarding the true threat to Westeros, George said as much. He has the potential to be a great king, with the good counselors backing him. To claim he would be a terrible king is wrong. He allowed the wildings through because he saw that leaving them to die would only added to the army of the dead. My criticism of his command would be that he was not able to convince the others in regard to the aforementioned statement. Perhaps Allister Thorn was like iron, unable to bend to the truth around him. He gave his whole life for the watch, fighting against Wildlings, and he could not see past his own selfishness and accept that Wildings south of the wall was the most logical and humane choice.

Even in the books, when Jon decides to march south against Ramsay (because he wanted to save Arya), he rationalized it in that Ramsay would march north and destroy the Night's Watch, thus destroying the only defense of the Wall. 

This topic is much to complex to simply state he was a bad Lord Commander.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The TV Jon is just a moron. He would never be a good king the way he is portrayed. But to be honest, TV Dany wouldn't be much better.

As I see it, Jon is going to die for good in the fight against the Others, probably killing the Night King (which is going to make the wights and Others magically disappear, because, you know, that's how it is in video games and fantasy movies) but giving his life in the process of it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Since they are going to make the Night King a dragonrider, too - a ridiculous plot element, by the way - the final confrontation should be Dany-Jon on their dragons vs. the Night King on his. Below them the mortal men will fight the dead while the divine Targaryens fight in the air.

Now, if I had to guess we are going to see some variation of the Battle Above the Gods Eye there. The Night King will attack Dany and Drogon and then Jon will slam into them and jump dragons while they are falling, killing the Night King with Longclaw. Either he'll deal him a mortal wound in return or Jon is going to be mortally injured during the fall.

There should be some sort of cheesy farewell scene on the ground, with Jon wishing Dany and their (unborn?) child good luck in the years to come, and then everything will be (finally) over.

That whole thing would fit perfectly with the whole resurrection story. Jon was not brought back to become king. He was brought back to defeat the Others. And when that's done he can finally die for good and all.

The whole death-and-resurrection thing is essentially giving away the ending. Neither George nor the show is going to make the zombie dude the king in the end.

I could feel your 'subjective' wants pervade through your comment. You make big statements, offer little to no proof, and essentially claim 'I am correct, and you're all wrong." We don't know how the series will end, in the books or in the show. We don't know how resurrection will effect Jon. So, like, step back and relax. :)

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Beware the person who desires power, for they will do anything to anyone to achieve and maintain it.  Jon is the only one who isn't seeking power, rather having it thrust upon him by others who respect him and want him to lead.  A person willing to make hard choices and personal sacrifices for the good of the realm is what the realm needs, now more than ever.  

Dany earned everything she acquired in the east, mostly through her actions.  She got to Westeros and just started making demands and threats to otherwise good people (not slavers/masters like Astapor/Yunkai/Mereen).  Life is reflected in art here, the best leaders are not those who are capable of buying it or forcing it upon others through threats.  The best leaders are those who lead by example, sacrifice for their people, and seek to restore some form of justice.

Jon is far from perfect, but he is young (very young in the books).  Youth brings with it certain problems in leadership...but his foundation is strong and would only get stronger with age and resolution of this conflict.  If you step back and look at the big picture, Dany and Jon are strong where the other is weak...which is what I think the show runners are trying to display.  Together they can become what the realm needs, a song of ice and fire.

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The point pretty much stands. People who don't want a job usually are very bad at it because, you know, they don't like what they are doing. That goes for any profession. Somebody who doesn't want to be a teacher, professor, journalist, physician, surgeon, etc. isn't going to excel in any of those professions.

If you have a king who doesn't want to be king you get a king like Robert. Who doesn't give a shit, dreaming about being some sort of hedge knight traveling the world.

Jon isn't as bad as Robert but you get the feeling in ADwD that he cannot and will not listen if he isn't in the mood. Take the example of the Samwell-Jon chapter overlapping each other. Sam told us some rather interesting things there but Jon essentially summarizes those things as him rambling on about uninteresting topics.

Later Jon doesn't give a shit about the fact that the provisions of the Watch are limited. Marsh shows him the food they stored but it doesn't click with him. And then he is even dismissive of what the men around him are saying, priding himself that he can predict what they are saying but not realizing that the important thing is not exactly what they are saying but rather what they are not saying/planning to do.

If you imagine Jon sitting on the Iron Throne for a couple of hours dealing with with a lot of petitioners you don't exactly get the picture that he is going to enjoy that whole thing all that much. Nor is he going to excel at that kind of thing. He would want to be out in the yard training to fight.

Nor seems he be prepared in any way to deal with schemers and plotters, or even present himself the way with the gravitas and aura a king need to impress his people. I mean, even as Lord Commander he resides in the armory.

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I think at a very basic story writing level, the idea that Jon, the boy who lived his life as bastard before being revealed to be a legitimate child, who may have the best claim to the Iron Throne out of anyone sets him up to be the typical 'secret prince'. I really don't think GRRM will actually go along with the secret prince getting to the Iron Throne, because it would be that every predictable point in Jon's story came true.

  • He is more than Ned's bastard > He ends up being a legitimate Targaryen child, potential heir to the Seven Kingdoms.
  • He is killed by his black brothers  > He comes back to life.
  • He doesn't 'want' to rule > He ends up sitting on the Iron Throne.

No one wants Jon's story to turn out to be the most predictable and most clichéd of the whole saga, and I think that is why Jon never becoming King will be the best thing for him. Dying as a hero, making the ultimate sacrifice to let someone with a lesser claim than he has - potentially Daenerys, who could also be his lover by then - would, in my opinion, be the best possible end for him. I think he has been killed once so that he can be killed again. I think book Jon will look at himself as dead already when he is resurrected, so he will be willing to die again.

Show Jon is a different matter and it is much harder to call. The fact he is wight has hardly been touched on since he came back from the dead. With the mass amount of fans that would love to see him sit the Iron Throne, the writers may be tempted to go along with it, even for a short spell.

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16 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I could feel your 'subjective' wants pervade through your comment. You make big statements, offer little to no proof, and essentially claim 'I am correct, and you're all wrong." We don't know how the series will end, in the books or in the show. We don't know how resurrection will effect Jon. So, like, step back and relax. :)

Sure, I'm subjective and so are you in your hardly 'objective' assessment of Jon's character or capabilities.

George has told us that Beric-Cat are foreshadowing Jon's resurrection. If you believe Jon will be a (great) king in the end you are, in a sense, in the camp of the people who think that Cat is going to be a great Lady of Riverrun or Winterfell in the end. That is not going to happen.

Jon is going to be a hero, but he won't survive his story. He is set up to be destroyed by his mission to save the world. That is his story.

4 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

Beware the person who desires power, for they will do anything to anyone to achieve and maintain it.  Jon is the only one who isn't seeking power, rather having it thrust upon him by others who respect him and want him to lead.  A person willing to make hard choices and personal sacrifices for the good of the realm is what the realm needs, now more than ever.  

That is doubly wrong, actually. Being king doesn't mean you have to desire power and do anything to achieve and maintain in. Kings usually inherit power. They are born to rule, never mind their abilities and character traits. If Jon ended up being king then because of his royal Targaryen blood, not because he is such a competent guy. Westeros isn't a meritocracy, and Jon himself would be another proof of that.

And he isn't the guy making personal sacrifices, either. He put his family (Arya) over the mission to defend mankind. As a king he would most likely do the same thing, putting the lives of his wife or children before the good of the Realm and the lives of his subjects. That isn't a good king.

Daenerys on the other hand married that creep Hizdahr to give her people a peace. She sacrificed her own personal happiness for her people, even giving up her beloved paramour in the process of that. Jon has never done anything even remotely as selfless as that. In fact, he even joins the NW with the intention to raise high at Wall, something that is not uncommon for bastards there. He wants to be some heroic ranger. Going to the Wall is, in part, a sacred calling but also a rather selfish career choice for him (until he learns what scum lives up there, of course). He wants to make a name for himself, to be more than just a bastard.

If Jon could be a great king because he doesn't want to be a king (apparently - he liked to play Daeron I, remember?) then I'd be a great king, too. I don't pursue power, either. But if you gave me more or less absolute power I most likely would indulge myself quite a bit.

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13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The point pretty much stands. People who don't want a job usually are very bad at it because, you know, they don't like what they are doing. That goes for any profession. Somebody who doesn't want to be a teacher, professor, journalist, physician, surgeon, etc. isn't going to excel in any of those professions.

If you have a king who doesn't want to be king you get a king like Robert. Who doesn't give a shit, dreaming about being some sort of hedge knight traveling the world.

Jon isn't as bad as Robert but you get the feeling in ADwD that he cannot and will not listen if he isn't in the mood. Take the example of the Samwell-Jon chapter overlapping each other. Sam told us some rather interesting things there but Jon essentially summarizes those things as him rambling on about uninteresting topics.

Later Jon doesn't give a shit about the fact that the provisions of the Watch are limited. Marsh shows him the food they stored but it doesn't click with him. And then he is even dismissive of what the men around him are saying, priding himself that he can predict what they are saying but not realizing that the important thing is not exactly what they are saying but rather what they are not saying/planning to do.

If you imagine Jon sitting on the Iron Throne for a couple of hours dealing with with a lot of petitioners you don't exactly get the picture that he is going to enjoy that whole thing all that much. Nor is he going to excel at that kind of thing. He would want to be out in the yard training to fight.

Nor seems he be prepared in any way to deal with schemers and plotters, or even present himself the way with the gravitas and aura a king need to impress his people. I mean, even as Lord Commander he resides in the armory.

I disagree, Jon said he hates what he is good at...fighting and killing.  That is all Robert wanted to do, which made him a bad king.  A leader should desire peace, not warfare.  Jon has seen bad leadership (Thorne) and has lived a somewhat ridiculed life of a bastard.  Highborn, but still a bastard who was hated by the only mother-type figure in his life.  He didn't grow up entitled or with great expectations of grandeur...Robert did.

We have not seen him lead during any type of peace, he would likely be very good at it...particularly if some of the burdens of ruling are shared with someone like Dany and a capable peacetime Hand like Tyrion or even Sam.

Or maybe everyone will die and we are speculating for nothing!

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5 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I think at a very basic story writing level, the idea that Jon, the boy who lived his life as bastard before being revealed to be a legitimate child, who may have the best claim to the Iron Throne out of anyone sets him up to be the typical 'secret prince'. I really don't think GRRM will actually go along with the secret prince getting to the Iron Throne, because it would be that every predictable point in Jon's story came true.

  • He is more than Ned's bastard > He ends up being a legitimate Targaryen child, potential heir to the Seven Kingdoms.
  • He is killed by his black brothers  > He comes back to life.
  • He doesn't 'want' to rule > He ends up sitting on the Iron Throne.

No one wants Jon's story to turn out to be the most predictable and most clichéd of the whole saga, and I think that is why Jon never becoming King will be the best thing for him. Dying as a hero, making the ultimate sacrifice to let someone with a lesser claim than he has - potentially Daenerys, who could also be his lover by then - would, in my opinion, be the best possible end for him. I think he has been killed once so that he can be killed again. I think book Jon will look at himself as dead already when he is resurrected, so he will be willing to die again.

Show Jon is a different matter and it is much harder to call. The fact he is wight has hardly been touched on since he came back from the dead. With the mass amount of fans that would love to see him sit the Iron Throne, the writers may be tempted to go along with it, even for a short spell.

In the show they will pretty much ignore the whole zombie thing and have him heroically sacrifice himself like a proper little action hero. And that isn't going to be that bad an ending within in the show framework.

Book Jon most likely is going to suffer a lot more before he can finally die for good.

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