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Bakker L - Unholy Consultation and Collaboration (Now with TUC Spoilers!)


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3 hours ago, Psycho Circus said:

We figured out at Zaudunyanicon that Bakker never reads his published books and all the typos that Madness, Wilshire, and bakkerfans noted, along with a couple other beta-readers, were never fixed by Overlook.

I thought bakkerfans was Madness.

 

Also, die hard fans, who know author on a personal level, are probably the worst choice for beta-readers.

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29 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

I thought bakkerfans was Madness.

Also, die hard fans, who know author on a personal level, are probably the worst choice for beta-readers.

Eh, kinda? I think some of it is good because they know things like the backstory and the characters and the vibe, so they are at least in on it and know what might work. I think relying on them alone is a very, very dangerous thing to do, because they will miss a whole lot of basic things and are reading it for different reasons. 

You ideally want a lot of different readers - some who don't know what's going on, some who are reading it for literary value, some for editorial value, and some for fan value. 

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9 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

General question about the series: Were Cnaiur and Proyas actually lovers at any point during TPoN trilogy? IIRC Proyas refers to Cnaiur's lips as "sensual" during the trip through the desert, and there are certain plenty of hints that Cnaiur was "warm for his form" so to speak. Was this mutual? Do we think anything ever happened between them?

Considering Prosha's strong cultural reaction against homosexuality following his rape, I would say no.

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Less than half of Bakker's beta-readers are fans, only two of them read TGO, and only four of them read TUC. Apparently, they didn't miss any major plot points except:

whatever it is that's going on with Shauriatas, which has now become strictly RAFO following the Q&A/AMA and his realizing that no one caught something.

You actually have two non-fan long-time beta-readers to thank for the shortening of the two Obscenity Ordeal chapters and the condensed WHCB section - the former of which eliminated some cool dialogue and semi-crucial dialogue between Saccarees and Council and Proyas and Eskeles respectively. Bakker mentioned to draft readers that they could share director's cut information and Bakkerfans read some missing portions of TUC in Wilshire's hotel room later that night.

Bakker apparently went through all the mundane changes by beta-readers and those of a handful of draft readers - major plot clarity/ambiguity aside - were never fixed. Bakker didn't seem to know that as he was pretty damn surprised when he found out on Saturday that the typos caught by Madness, Wilshire, and Bakkerfans didn't make it into the final version.

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6 hours ago, Psycho Circus said:

Less than half of Bakker's beta-readers are fans, only two of them read TGO, and only four of them read TUC. Apparently, they didn't miss any major plot points except:

 

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whatever it is that's going on with Shauriatas, which has now become strictly RAFO following the Q&A/AMA and his realizing that no one caught something.

 

You actually have two non-fan long-time beta-readers to thank for the shortening of the two Obscenity Ordeal chapters and the condensed WHCB section - the former of which eliminated some cool dialogue and semi-crucial dialogue between Saccarees and Council and Proyas and Eskeles respectively. Bakker mentioned to draft readers that they could share director's cut information and Bakkerfans read some missing portions of TUC in Wilshire's hotel room later that night.

Bakker apparently went through all the mundane changes by beta-readers and those of a handful of draft readers - major plot clarity/ambiguity aside - were never fixed. Bakker didn't seem to know that as he was pretty damn surprised when he found out on Saturday that the typos caught by Madness, Wilshire, and Bakkerfans didn't make it into the final version.

Wait, are you saying the beta readers who read TUC hadn't read any of the others? I'm a bit confused.

And SOMEONE obviously missed a bunch of plot points...

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9 hours ago, Psycho Circus said:

Less than half of Bakker's beta-readers are fans, only two of them read TGO, and only four of them 

Bakker apparently went through all the mundane changes by beta-readers and those of a handful of draft readers - major plot clarity/ambiguity aside - were never fixed. Bakker didn't seem to know that as he was pretty damn surprised when he found out on Saturday that the typos caught by Madness, Wilshire, and Bakkerfans didn't make it into the final version.

Wait - if madness, bakkerfans and Wilshire all submitted typo fixes, it can't be the case that only two of the beta readers read TGO. 

I think either what beta reader vs draft reader means something very specific that we don't really care about or there's a lie here. 

Also, which of the 9 are you?

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55 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Now you're just tempting me.

Lol. Well, clearly the focus has shifted away from the books. Why? Because, this always happens with Bakker. He's divisive and people can't just discuss the books, but everything else that happens around them, which really means Jack shit, tbh. You don't like them, fine. You do? Great! But, the conversation always goes to AMA's and who read what before the books were released and whatever else so concerns the denizens of these threads. 

More, books to come. Plenty of speculation. Instead of Bakker "lied", Madness "lied"....who really gives a shit. Bakker owes us nothing and can be as ambiguous in his answers in Q&A's and AMA's as he likes. He has no obligation whatsoever to give us answers and especially ones the will ruin future plot points. 

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8 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Lol. Well, clearly the focus has shifted away from the books. Why? Because, this always happens with Bakker. He's divisive and people can't just discuss the books, but everything else that happens around them, which really means Jack shit, tbh. You don't like them, fine. You do? Great! But, the conversation always goes to AMA's and who read what before the books were released and whatever else so concerns the denizens of these threads. 

More, books to come. Plenty of speculation. Instead of Bakker "lied", Madness "lied"....who really gives a shit. Bakker owes us nothing and can be as ambiguous in his answers in Q&A's and AMA's as he likes. He has no obligation whatsoever to give us answers and especially ones the will ruin future plot points. 

Actually it's because while the last book has it's moments and there are things it does really well, it was kind of a let down.  It's tough to sit here and speculate about character arcs and plotlines that just dropped off the face of Earwa.  Especially as a final installment, it kind of fails (imo).  I will reread it at some point.   And with the uncertainty of whether or not anything else will ever be published, I personally just don't have a lot to say about it anymore.  Probably if the next installment actually seems like something that'll happen I'd be happy to sit here and speculate.  

 

Agree that Bakker has no obligation to his readers and that he has been pretty opaque in discussing the books overall.  You'll notice that the first paragraph I wrote here is discussing the series, not the author.  For what it's worth, it was cool to see a series I was so intrigued by finished.  No one can take that away from Bakker.  At the same time, I think that compared to the first five books, the final two were definitely inferior.  

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14 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

 

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Actually it's because while the last book has it's moments and there are things it does really well, it was kind of a let down.  It's tough to sit here and speculate about character arcs and plotlines that just dropped off the face of Earwa.  Especially as a final installment, it kind of fails (imo).  I will reread it at some point.   And with the uncertainty of whether or not anything else will ever be published, I personally just don't have a lot to say about it anymore.  Probably if the next installment actually seems like something that'll happen I'd be happy to sit here and speculate.  

 

Agree that Bakker has no obligation to his readers and that he has been pretty opaque in discussing the books overall.  You'll notice that the first paragraph I wrote here is discussing the series, not the author.  For what it's worth, it was cool to see a series I was so intrigued by finished.  No one can take that away from Bakker.  At the same time, I think that compared to the first five books, the final two were definitely inferior.  

 

I agree Larry. But, we've known for a long time that TSTSNBN is part of the series. Please read my post in the other thread. I covered this there.

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