Bakker L - Unholy Consultation and Collaboration (Now with TUC Spoilers!)

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, Hello World said:

Speaking of rules, isn't anyone disappointed with the fact that TUC didn't clarify much about who's damned and who's not generally? (unless I missed it?) That's not what I expected based on what Bakker said here,

It certainly is the case we didn't get a whole lot of answers about it, nor was it the case that the plot of TGO/TUC hinged on the answer.

2 hours ago, Hello World said:

I think Bakker said that the Gods basically pick and choose individually? Is that just it? That explains the right and wrong way to believe in Earwa? Because I remember a lot of posts contrasting the Fanim beliefs with the Inrithi and the Nonmen view of oblivion and so to try to come up with answers, and that was way more interesting than this. But I guess that was all fanwank that's not based on the books or anything Bakker said.

Well, kinda? Basically salvation of a type is when a person is damned, cannot be obliviated, and would normally be at the mercy of the denizens of the Outside. The gods then pick and choose based on individual criteria that are subjective from the viewpoint of the god. The god might be happy with that person, or they might be extra tasty, or it might be a whim.

This doesn't explain how people can become Ciphrang, for instance, and what happens to them. 

And it REALLY doesn't explain what someone who is seen as holy experiences in the Outside.

I guess the most absolute answer is that the Fanim are the most wrong, though that's extratextual. 

[Hello World]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Basically salvation of a type is when a person is damned, cannot be obliviated, and would normally be at the mercy of the denizens of the Outside.

So whether a person is damned or not (before they get to salvation) doesn't hinge on the way they believe or worship but on crimes they've committed like sorcery? Or is everyone already damned by default and only by getting "picked" by one of the gods are they saved?

[Darth Richard II]

I was always under the impression everyone was damned by default unless you did some weird specific unnamed thing.

[Kalbear]

44 minutes ago, Hello World said:

So whether a person is damned or not (before they get to salvation) doesn't hinge on the way they believe or worship but on crimes they've committed like sorcery? Or is everyone already damned by default and only by getting "picked" by one of the gods are they saved?

My understanding is that it's more like the former - that what you do (specifically what you do to each other) is what damns you, what sins you track in the ledger of your soul. How you believe or worship likely affects what gods might be interested in saving you and treating you as their own personal buttfloss, but it doesn't change the actual marks of damnation. Killing for Gilgaol doesn't make the sin of killing go away, it just makes it more likely that Gilgaol will be interested in you. 

From reading extratextual stuff and from Koringhus, my theory is that the biggest key to whether or not you sin is whether or not you are doing harm to others by being extra individualistic. The more connected and selfless (in the most basic sense of that word - lack of self), the more likely you are to not sin. Your motivations for doing bad things don't appear to matter (Mimara analyzing the sins of one of the Skin Eaters is an example of this), only the actions that do harm to others do. Conversely, the more connected you are to everyone, the less damned you appear to be. 

Sorcery both marks you, and apparently damns you. The two aren't necessarily related. If I had to fanwank it, I'd say that sorcery damns because it is an affront to all of God's creation when done outside the harmony of God, and therefore harms everything. 

But again, that's what I think right now, and it appears to be pretty mutable in Bakker's viewpoint.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Triskan said:

On that note I'm still curious whether the Cishaurim's work not creating the mark means they're not damned for practicing.

The way I figure they work is that they aren't damned specifically for being active sorcerers, but they're probably damned for doing their day-to-day activities like raping and murder and whatnot. What's bad for them is that their overall belief is like 99% wrong, so they don't try to make themselves small and disappear like the nonmen do, they don't curry favor with the gods like Inrithi do, so they all end up eaten by Ciphrang and other shitty things. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

30 minutes ago, Triskan said:

On that note I'm still curious whether the Cishaurim's work not creating the mark means they're not damned for practicing.

The chorae kills them all the same, in a slightly different manner though. 

Well, it's been said by Koringhus, Kellhus and Memgowa, that ignorance is holy. That's why Kellhus decided to keep Esme ignorant of events. I've quoted it before you all have seen it. But, there's more there definitely, again it's ambiguous and we'll never get a definite answer.

@Let's Get Kraken, you asked about Kellhus's statement about just wait til the end (TUC) about women. Well, we have two things that he could be been pointing to. Mimara and Esme are the only ones we know to be truly saved by the God of God's (or whatever you want to say the JE is, I believe it to be). And, that Mimara is a prophet, and per the tapestry (which I'm itching to know more about) it was probably prophesied, the true and false and all that. Also, what exactly make Esme special. She is the woman to bring the NG into the world and also Mimara, a prophetess and I think a whole lot more.  Also, she is Kellhus darkness which is an intriguing thought to me. No, the whale mothers isn't what he was meaning, and I think anyone willing to be honest, knows that to be the case.

[Kalbear]

12 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

The chorae kills them all the same, in a slightly different manner though. 

Chorae killing things has nothing to do with damnation.

12 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

 

@Let's Get Kraken, you asked about Kellhus's statement about just wait til the end (TUC) about women. Well, we have two things that he could be been pointing to. Mimara and Esme are the only ones we know to be truly saved by the God of God's (or whatever you want to say the JE is, I believe it to be).

No, we know that they look holy to Mimara. They are clearly not 'saved' as they're still alive. If they die now, we don't know what happens to them, especially with the No-God active. 

12 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

And, that Mimara is a prophet, and per the tapestry (which I'm itching to know more about) it was probably prophesied, the true and false and all that.

The 'true and false' has nothing to do with Mimara. It has to do with the Anasurimbor will return prophecy. We are told this explicitly in the book and then affirmed this by Bakker later. 

12 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Also, what exactly make Esme special. She is the woman to bring the NG into the world and also Mimara, a prophetess and I think a whole lot more.  Also, she is Kellhus darkness which is an intriguing thought to me. No, the whale mothers isn't what he was meaning, and I think anyone willing to be honest, knows that to be the case.

I don't know why the Whale Mothers wouldn't be at least part of it. They're a crucial part of Akka and Mimara formulating that the Dunyain are incredibly, horribly damned from birth on. That the Whale Mothers are a crime against everything. Why wouldn't that be part of the final thought process in how Bakker perceives women? 

[Gronzag]

I wonder, is there a difference between 'holy' and 'not damned'? What happens with people who are either after they die?

Also, how is Esme 'ignorant' of Khellus' crimes when she witnessed numerous atrocities during First Holy War, certainly knew horrors of Unification Wars, and finally, instigated mass murder herself as an Empress?

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Gronzag said:

I wonder, is there a difference between 'holy' and 'not damned'? What happens with people who are either after they die?

Also, how is Esme 'ignorant' of Khellus' crimes when she witnessed numerous atrocities during First Holy War, certainly knew horrors of Unification Wars, and finally, instigated mass murder herself as an Empress?

I guess if she didn't participate in raping Proyas she's totally fine. SUPER clear of all the issues.

[Darth Richard II]

Wasn't the whole point of her arc that she figured out he's a monster?

[Gronzag]

43 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Wasn't the whole point of her arc that she figured out he's a monster?

She only figured out that he is a monster after she figured out that he will never show her any affection. Butchery of countless civilians during the first holy war was too subtle hint for Esmi. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

1 hour ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Regarding Kellhus's statement about keeping Esmi ignorant to protect her from sin and damnnation...

Well, the thing is, I think sometimes he lies.

Of course lies. not even debatable. But, it makes sense and jives with what Koringhus says about ignorance and so on. So, I don't think it's a lie. I think it fits exactly what we learn about what is holy and such.

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I don't know why the Whale Mothers wouldn't be at least part of it. They're a crucial part of Akka and Mimara formulating that the Dunyain are incredibly, horribly damned from birth on. That the Whale Mothers are a crime against everything. Why wouldn't that be part of the final thought process in how Bakker perceives women? 

Yout think that's how Bakker perceives women? If that's true, then Kalbear, all you've ever said I cannot take seriously. Point blank. That's ridiculous and shows me just how much contempt you have for Bakker. Lol

 

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

No, we know that they look holy to Mimara. They are clearly not 'saved' as they're still alive. If they die now, we don't know what happens to them, especially with the No-God active. 

True. But, yet, the only ones that are holy. As per my reading, I think that's what Bakker meant by, just wait til the end. Or, maybe as we know, we're not at the end get and there's more.

 

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

The 'true and false' has nothing to do with Mimara. It has to do with the Anasurimbor will return prophecy. We are told this explicitly in the book and then affirmed this by Bakker later. 

Did you read the same book as I? It was said and directed at Mimara. She was Anasurimbor of a sort. But. if it was only referring to the Anasurimbor's then why does Aurang say this about Mimara? How do you know thats there's only one prophecy? And, if Bakker said that, it even adds more reason for me to pay no mind to the AMA and such, because then why say that at all about Mimara? That makes zero sense.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

 

Yout think that's how Bakker perceives women? If that's true, then Kalbear, all you've ever said I cannot take seriously. Point blank. That's ridiculous and shows me just how much contempt you have for Bakker. Lol

Try reading what I said again. 

The text states that what the dunyain do to the whale mothers damns their entire race. If they were perfect from day one they would still be damned forever. That is Mimaras view. It also happens to be Kellhus' view. The obvious takeaway is that bakker himself thinks this is one of the most horrible things ever. Even orgies of cannibalistic rape do not effect mimara like the whale mothers. 

So yes, it seems clear to me that mimaras judgment is a substitute for the authors view. 

1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

True. But, yet, the only ones that are holy. As per my reading, I think that's what Bakker meant by, just wait til the end. Or, maybe as we know, we're not at the end get and there's more.

Except he said wait until TUC. 

1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

 

Did you read the same book as I? It was said and directed at Mimara. She was Anasurimbor of a sort. But. if it was only referring to the Anasurimbor's then why does Aurang say this about Mimara?

Because they don't know for certain what anasurimbor is destined to be in the carapace. They only know one is. And she is an anasurimbor and is referred to as such in the text. 

They don't know for certain that Kellhus is the one. They think that, and use that in goading Kellhus, but they aren't sure. So they guard all the others. This is why mimara has a guard. This is why kelmomas is found almost immediately by a skin spy. 

1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

How do you know thats there's only one prophecy? And, if Bakker said that, it even adds more reason for me to pay no mind to the AMA and such, because then why say that at all about Mimara? That makes zero sense.

I don't know it, but in the entire series there has been precisely one prophecy ever mentioned. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

50 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Seriously though, I think it's a little strange that you'd reply to this a day after I deleted the comment in question (replacing it with "nevermind") rather than when you first saw it, or when people first started discussing the book in this thread. And I of course notice that you keep insulting people and saying you're done with these threads, only to come back a few hours later.

I'm gonna be honest, I think you only brought this up to squeeze in that last line about how other people's interpretations are dishonest. I also think you've been deliberately trying to stir shit up in this thread for a few days now. You're baiting people into circular arguments through ad hominem insults and fallacious accusations which conflate criticism of the series with maliciousness towards the creator.

The only thing this is going to do is get the thread locked, or yourself a ban.

I was not in the best of moods made mistakes,apologized and tried answering questions while gone. Take it how you want. I've been around her for 7 years now. I get pissed at times how things go around here, as I voiced and it got deleted. I'm done getting into it. You wanna keep bringing it up by all means do. 

If you or anyone else thinks that the whale mother is a representation of what Bakker thinks of women, I think your just hurtling insults towards Bakker. Just because it's in the books, does not mean that is what he thinks of women. He used it to show just how evil and rammed the Dunyain are. 

Why does everyone keep talking about me gettting banned? I've spoke to the Mods since getting a 3 day ban. I understand why. I've also since then adjusted my way of "speaking" to others. I've tossed no insults your way or to anyone other since. So, you worry about yourself and I'll take care of me and quit bringing up anything about me getting banned. I feel it's threatening, this is your warning, and also everyone else's, I hear it again and I will report it. I feel it's a way to try to bait me and get me banned. That's all I'll say on that.

To the bold, how can you take the whale mothers as Bakker s view on women? What evidence do you have to Thu k that's true? As to that, I do Thu k that interpretation is obtusely dishonest. How is this stirring the pot that I call someone out on that. In my view, I think it's stirring the pot to think that the whale mothers is Bakker's view on women. How is this insulting to you or anyone else? The only one it's insulting to is Bakker.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

18 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Try reading what I said again

Read it again. Do you mean how he thinks of women in text or his personal views? I thought you referring to his personal views, if not, sorry a mistake on my reading. Wasn't clear to me.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

4 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

If everyone is telling you something, then you should probably consider the possibility that your behavior is being perceived differently by others than what you intend. Although at this point, I kind of think you're doing it on purpose

I'm not trolling. And doing nothing on purpose. I'm discussing the books. I just commented that I may have took Kalbears statement the wrong way.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

28 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Except he said wait until TUC. 

And we find out that both are holy or saved, whatever word you want to use by what the JE sees. Esme might be the most important character, and we know undoubtedly that she is special. She birthed TNG and Mimara. Serwa was probably the most badass women I've read about with her abilities and mental fortitude. I think she'll have a huge role to play in TNG. So, besides Akka, a handful of sorcerors, a small contingent of the Ordeal and Moe Jr., the events of the 2nd apocalypse will lie heavily on those women's shoulders. That's what I think he meant by, " Wait and see".

37 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

don't know it, but in the entire series there has been precisely one prophecy ever mentioned.

“Then she cannot be harmed. All the prophecies must be respected, the false as much as the true.”

To me, that certainly suggests there to be more than one prophecy. Just because we don't know them don't mean they don't exist. In fact, the tapestry could indeed be a rendition of a ancient prophecy.

 

[unJon]

4 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Okay so, during the Daimos attack on Golgoterrath, when the Ciphrang is threatening to give Iyokus a Hellfire enema in the Outside, Iyokus says something like "I fear I belong to a darker soul."

Doesn't this indicate that there indeed was some sort of pact with Ajokli?

I took this to mean he was already claimed by Zioz the ciphrang in TTT, who is described as one of the worst. If it meant Ajokli that means Kellhus must have let him in on the secret and I just can't fathom he would do that. 

[unJon]

2 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Wasn't Iyokus a part of Kellhus's first journey into the Outside? I could be mistaken, I've only read through the once, but I thought either Kellhus or somebody else mentioned it in one of the previous books. He must have been aware of at least some part of Kellhus's secret, as if nothing else the statement indicates that he knew he was still damned.

I also think he would have used the biggest, baddest Ciphrang that he could find in the final assault on Golgoterrath. Remember he's has 20 years of study to further master the Daimos, including whatever innovations Kellhus might have made with it alongside him. So would Zioz really have been the "darker" soul?

These are all fair points. 

[Hello World]

6 hours ago, Gronzag said:

I wonder, is there a difference between 'holy' and 'not damned'? What happens with people who are either after they die?

That's how I took it at first. The JE usually shows the sins and the damnation of people and that's contrasted in some individuals by showing them as holy instead. I thought this was Bakker's way of saying this person isn't damned. I don't know how they are saved and what happens to them in the Outside though. 

Since this isn't something that's explained by the hundred saving someone maybe there is more to it than what Psatma thinks? There could be some truth to the fanim view even.