The identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree

[aryagonnakill#2]

5 hours ago, Kienn said:

According to Catelyn Ned was shorter during their wedding. The wedding was after the tournament. Ipso facto Ned wasn't full grown at the tourney despite what you assume "would" be the case.

 

Robb being a better jouster than Jon only helps my point... 

You stated

"The purpose of Lyanna's horse riding skill is to link her to Arya and Jon"

How could Robb being a better rider than Jon strengthen that argument?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

12 hours ago, Kienn said:

It's definitely Ned.

He is, in fact, established as notably short.

 

35 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Nor is he called tall, or even average height.

We might continue this discussion when and if you decide, what your position actually is.

[Kienn]

24 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

We might continue this discussion when and if you decide, what your position actually is.

One can be established as short without being directly described as short...

Nice of you to concede all the points though. Good day.

[Livesundersink]

1 hour ago, Kienn said:

Nor is he called tall, or even average height.

Jon is never described as looking like Lyanna. And yet people believe it by the transitive property of ASoIaF.

Perhaps he didn't plan on jousting at the tourney so he didn't bring his own. Ned is often compared to Baelor Breakspear and that is the reason Baelor gives for wearing the armor he does... to stand up for honor... Familiar?

 Or perhaps it would be foolish for a mystery knight to wear his own recognizable armor...

1) He felt like it.

2) He's shy.

3) He didn't want to bring attention to his house in front of nearly every house of the realm. But he felt he needed to stand up for his family's subject's honor.

Robert was called the Laughing Storm reborn, but Ned is a pious northerner and certainly doesn't have the "wolf blood" so a weirwood would actually fit quite well as a personal sigil if he were to ever make one. As for laughing - Ned is mentioned laughing many times throughout the books (have you read them?). As for why Robert would say that, let's use your own logic... Ned is more mature than Robert. But being more mature than Robert doesn't mean he never has fun.

There's no good reason to for the author to keep any detail of Robert's Rebellion and the events leading up to it a secret...

Oh wait, yea there is. It's called telling a story properly.

---

1) Ice is 57 inches long, or 4.75 feet (hilt included). Not 6.

2) When does Ned ever wield Ice from his back?

That's just a replica, the real ice is described as being as tall as Robb and I doubt Robb is shorter than five feet

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

2 hours ago, Kienn said:

 

1) Ice is 57 inches long, or 4.75 feet (hilt included). Not 6.

2) When does Ned ever wield Ice from his back?

Spoiler

Someone else mentioned ice was 6 ft, and Ned carried out on his back, I didn't double check that, since I assumed they looked it up, I have no idea where that came from. In That case Ned must be at least 4.75 ft tall

Spoiler

I should've checked that link before writing my reply. Your link proves nothing.

 

There is still no indication he's short though, as far as I know he's only described as being shorter than Brandon, who happened to be tall. I would assume that he'd be of average height, since Cat doesn't remark he's short, which she does say about Littlefinger. So of her three suitors, she thinks of one as tall and handsome, one less tall and less handsome than the other, and one short and slender, so presumably the second one would be somewhere in between,  and thus average... 

Quote

Petyr had been a small boy, and he had grown into a small man, an inch or two shorter than Catelyn.

Now we don't know how tall Cat is, but we have this :

Quote

Edmure swung down from his saddle. He was a head taller than she was, but he would always be her little brother. 

On the wiki Edmure is described as being of medium height. Cat being a head shorter than Edmure, and also taller than LF would most likely put her in the average height category as well.

Since no one ever mentions that Ned is shorter than Cat, he most likely is taller than her. IF he's only a little taller, he would be short for a fully grown man, but since 15/16 yo boys often joust as well, he wouldn't stand out between them,  since they wouldn't be fully grown yet, and there wouldn't be reason to remark how short the KOTLT was.

It also seems more likely that Ned is at the very least half a head taller than Cat, which would probably make him of average height as well, or at the very least not NOTABLY short.

[Kienn]

1 hour ago, Livesundersink said:

That's just a replica, the real ice is described as being as tall as Robb and I doubt Robb is shorter than five feet

Robb is described as being shorter than a 12 year old.

The replica was designed with input by GRRM and approved.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 8/16/2017 at 8:16 AM, Ser Petyr Parker said:

I'm sure this has been discussed many times before, but I have some thoughts about the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, so I thought I'd summarise all the evidence for and against different theories that I can think of, and then just leave it here and see what happens. Perhaps this has all been said before, but this is all my own work, so I hope some of it will be new to some of you.

 

Quote

There are only three likely candidates, the way I see it: Ned, Benjen and Lyanna. This is based on the assumption that the KotLT is one of the people featured in Meera's story, and that it couldn't be Brandon as he was too tall. It also leaves out the idea that it could be Howland himself, which I don't find convincing.

It is late here, so I will be brief and these are just the broad strokes of what I believe. Sorry if I am repeating anything here, I only skimmed the thread... because it is late and I am tired. 

I believe it was Lyanna skinchanging the horse that Howland rode. This fits the theme of the story on a few levels, including the joining of two things to make a something stronger. We see this ideal repeated in a few areas, including but not limited to, when Ygritte tells Jon a true man steals a girl from afar to strengthen the clan, Bran slipping in to Hodor to do certain tasks, and I have no doubt that Sansa and Arya will end up coming together to take down the giant of Baelish who destroyed their lives. 

I think there are enough clues in the story to show us that skinchanging/warging talents were cut off from the north when "good" Queen Alysanne went north and closed Nightfort and drew attention elsewhere with her shiny jewels. Just like dragons need their magics and riders, skinchangers and their familiars need each other, and the magics, to become "active". 

Also, maesters are set in ridding the world of any magic or knowledge that takes away their won power and "worth". The maesters, including dear old Luwin, deny that any such skinchanging talents even exist. This means there was no one to teach or guide Lyanna, and Jon Snow, and why Bran received his training through Jojen (so far), Arya thinks she is dreaming, and who knows what with Sansa and her probable bird connection. And we know from the Varamyr prologue that it is best to have someone with these talents teach and guide the younger generation in how to use their gift. Borroq is most likely going to be the one who helps Jon with his warg talent as Jon heals. 

Also, all of the "horseplay" Lyanna does with her tomboy antics, her being described as "half a centaur", and when Jaime says jousting is mostly about the horse, etc, etc.We have Elia Sand, aka Lady Lance, en route with Arianne as a new Lyanna stand-in to help drive this message across. There is constant attention drawn to the horses in the story. They have names, they have detailed descriptions, they have personalities. 

By the way, we also have Jon taking on some horse symbolism as well, especially in Dance as his character arc is about to make a major leap. This includes, but is not limited to, things like:

• Val, was Jon's first thought. But that was no woman's scream. That is a man in mortal agony. He broke into a run. Horse and Rory raced after him. "Is it wights?" asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains?
• Mully cleared his throat. "M'lord? The wildling princess, letting her go, the men may say—"

  "—that I am half a wildling myself, a turncloak who means to sell the realm to our raiders, cannibals, and giants." Jon did not need to stare into a fire to know what was being said of him. The worst part was, they were not wrong, not wholly.

This would also allow Howland to tell the story in truth because he was the "booming" knight. Lyanna guided the horse to be sure and true, knowingly or not, and allowed Howland to stand up to the bullies himself. Together, Lyanna the little girl and Howland the little man, were stronger.

This still fits with Lyanna being a "knight of the laughing tree" symbol because of the double entendre of skinchanging and it being connected to the weirwoods/old gods. Think of how the tree in the godswood at Winterfell was "laughing" at the marriage of a fake Arya to a historic Stark traitor, Ramsay Bolton. This was Lyanna "laughing" at the mockery of a wedding of a girl (Arya) that is frequently compared to her. 

Remember, George is a hippy who grew up poor, and he loves the idea of the little guy taking down the big A-hole bullies. 

Now, let me get out of here before the best balloon popper in all of Westeros gets here and tries to pop the one balloon I have left 

 

ADDING as it was just brought to my attention now, and credit to the poster Pretty Pig:

http://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/thread/112/small-theories-thread?page=11&scrollTo=17983

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa's fervent whisper, "Oh, he's so beautiful." Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy's shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape.

His courser was as slim as her rider, a beautiful grey mare, built for speed. Ser Gregor's huge stallion trumpeted as he caught her scent. The boy from Highgarden did something with his legs, and his horse pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer. Sansa clutched at his arm. "Father, don't let Ser Gregor hurt him," she said. Ned saw she was wearing the rose that Ser Loras had given her yesterday. Jory had told him about that as well.

 

A reed, cloaked in vines and flowers, on a slim, fast grey mare, facing off against a powerful opponent.
The wolf girl concerned for the rider's safety against a bigger, stronger, and more formidable foe.
The wolf girl favoring the rider because of an earlier personal connection.
The grey mare's scent distracts the opponent's horse and allows "her" champion to win.


KOTLT: Howland. How did Lyanna help him cheat?


ETA:  to take this further and make it both an echo and an inversion to the ToHH KotLT incident, we look at what happens next - the Mountain by no means accepts his defeat graciously, as did those defeated at the ToHH.  Instead, he flies into a rage, kills his own horse, and then tries to take out Loras next.   Loras is saved from death only by the intervention of the Hound - the personal protector of the Crown Prince.  (As many have noted, such as Melifeather, the Hound is the current day inversion of Arthur Dayne.)

Also of note, during CleganeBowl Lite at the Tourney of the Hand, King Bob gets fed up and yells to "Stop this madness!" before    The Hound obeys and kneels, and the Mountain stomps away in a fury.    At the ToHH, King Aerys is incensed by the KotLT and sends out men to capture the mystery knight.

[Ygrain]

11 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

 He was simply shorter than Brandon, who was notably tall. 

Which goes with the ideal of masculine beauty in Westeros. Brandon was an epitome of it, which is why Ned's appearance seemed disappointing to Cat.

8 hours ago, Kienn said:

Nor is he called tall, or even average height.

That's what happens when height is not notable. He is shorter than Brandon, hence not notably tall, and he is not notably short, either, because that would require to be commented upon, just like LF or Olenna's short stature is commented on.

Quote

 But being more mature than Robert doesn't mean he never has fun.

He never was the boy he was, though. Doesn't seem like a description of one into fun.

Quote

There's no good reason to for the author to keep any detail of Robert's Rebellion and the events leading up to it a secret...

Oh wait, yea there is. It's called telling a story properly.

Good that you can recognize what makes good storytelling; not giving away such an obvious feature as notably short height is definitely not good storytelling, especially when it's used as a plot point.

4 hours ago, Kienn said:

Robb is described as being shorter than a 12 year old.

And Joffrey is described as tall for his age.

 

ETA: BTW, what do you propose that Ned as KotLT brings to the story? And how does it fare in comparison to Lyanna being KotLT?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

10 hours ago, Kienn said:

One can be established as short without being directly described as short...

Nice of you to concede all the points though. Good day.

So, that's how it works? You present an unfounded claim, offer no evidence and, when someone asks for it, you declare your victory?

Allow me, ser, to be first to congratulate you for the magnificent win.

[Kienn]

9 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

So, that's how it works? You present an unfounded claim, offer no evidence and, when someone asks for it, you declare your victory?

Allow me, ser, to be first to congratulate you for the magnificent win.

I already mentioned some evidence, Catelyn's statements. I'm not going to go through all the books to list out quotes when you'll just ignore them anyways and say "WHHAAA IT'S LAYNNAAAAA".

[Kienn]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

ETA: BTW, what do you propose that Ned as KotLT brings to the story? And how does it fare in comparison to Lyanna being KotLT?

It's really just not worth arguing with anyone that can't even imagine any plausible scenario on their own for any theory. It is sad if you have so little imagination though, or are simply too stubborn to even make an attempt.

Some things to consider if you do make an attempt: Ned & Howland's relationship, Ned & Lyanna's relationship, Ned & Robert's relationship, Ned & Brandon's relationship, Aerys' motivation for calling for Ned & Robert's heads, the known and unknown events of the Tower of Joy, the known and unknown events at the Red Keep with Aerys, Rickard and Brandon & co.

Also good to drop your personal headcannon of Jon being the most important person/thing/idea in all the books and RLJ needing every sentence of the books twisted in its favor (that doesn't mean RLJ is wrong btw, it just doesn't need the entirety of the books).

IMO there are many options for Ned being KotLT that are far more compelling than the popular Rhaegar + Lyanna in the forest fanfic. There are also a couple better options for Lyanna than the fanfic... but they still don't stand up to Ned.

 

IMO if you haven't done an entire re-read of the series with a particular theory in mind... you haven't bothered to actually consider the theory yet.

[Bael's Bastard]

2 hours ago, Kienn said:

I already mentioned some evidence, Catelyn's statements. I'm not going to go through all the books to list out quotes when you'll just ignore them anyways and say "WHHAAA IT'S LAYNNAAAAA".

You didn't present anything that makes a decent case for Ned. The one thing you did attempt to put forward as evidence was taken out of context and twisted, and clearly does not actually support your position. Ned was a grown man at Harrenhal and a grown man when he married Cat. He was shorter than Brandon, that's it. It is a person's comparison of two people, not a statement that one of them is short in general.

[Kienn]

38 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

You didn't present anything that makes a decent case for Ned. The one thing you did attempt to put forward as evidence was taken out of context and twisted, and clearly does not actually support your position. Ned was a grown man at Harrenhal and a grown man when he married Cat. He was shorter than Brandon, that's it. It is a person's comparison of two people, not a statement that one of them is short in general.

I referenced Catelyn's comparison of current Ned (in AGoT) vs Ned during their wedding... Brandon is not mentioned.

You guys are the ones trying to twist it into a Brandon comparison... Clearly impossible to debate people so dogmatic.

[Adam Yozza]

@Kienn So in your opinion Ned being described as shorter than his older brother; who we are told is notably tall; equates with him being short. I'm sorry but that doesn't really work. Ned is shorter than Brandon in the same way that Stannis is smaller than Robert or Sandor is shorter than Gregor. Person A being shorter than person B if person B is notably tall does not make person A short. Ned is most likely average height, as the only time his size is commented on is in relation to Brandon. If he were a below average sized person, it would be mentioned. He isn't ever described as such. The KotLT, though, is described as being small. Considering that Ned was eighteen at the time and therefore fully grown, if he isn't short in Game of Thrones then he wasn't at Harrenhal either.

Size isn't the only problem with Ned=KotLT. You really think Ned would need to use mismatched armour and some random sigil in order to enter the lists and teach the squires (and their knights) a lesson? You compared him to Baelor, but here's the thing; Baelor borrowed his sons armour. It was all from the same suit if not quite the right size and high quality. You're telling me that there wasn't one person at that tourney of a similar size to Ned who he could have borrowed; or bought; armour off? You think he couldn't borrow Brandon's shield and carry the direwolf with him? If it had been Ned he wouldn't have been wearing the armour the KotLT did nor would he use the laughing tree shield.

Furthermore, there was no reason for Ned to hide his identity. The Stark's and Targaryen's weren't really hostile to each other yet (openly at least) and as a nobleman he had every right to enter the lists openly. No one would have questioned it. The KotLT hid his/her identity for a reason. Meaning it was someone who either wasn't supposed to be there or wasn't supposed to joust.

Lyanna is a better fit than Ned. The only thing going for Ned is the booming voice thing. But as others have said, a helmet such as would make one's voice sound deeper, especially is Lyanna conciously tried to sound deeper than she was naturally and preconceptions are powerful things (highlighted by Syrio's story about the cat). People heard the knight speak, it sounded sort of deep because of the helm and because they were expecting the knight to be a man, they heard a man's voice.

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Kienn said:

Some things to consider if you do make an attempt: Ned & Howland's relationship,

Because fighting a war as comrades at arms doesn't explain how they became friends? And what about the rest of the Magnificent Seven, do we also need an explanation how Ned befriended them?

5 hours ago, Kienn said:

Ned & Lyanna's relationship,

No idea what you mean here. What does the story tell about their relationship and what light does it shed if Ned is KotLT?

5 hours ago, Kienn said:

Ned & Robert's relationship,

See above. 

5 hours ago, Kienn said:

 Ned & Brandon's relationship

See above. And no, I'm not being intentionally obtuse, I honestly don't see what it is that you think you see in it.

5 hours ago, Kienn said:

 Aerys' motivation for calling for Ned & Robert's heads,

Do you think that preventing revenge for murdering Ned's father and brother was not a motivation enough?

5 hours ago, Kienn said:

 the known and unknown events of the Tower of Joy, the known and unknown events at the Red Keep with Aerys, Rickard and Brandon & co.

Wait, whoah, that all gets explained by Ned being KotLT? How?

5 hours ago, Kienn said:

Also good to drop your personal headcannon of Jon being the most important person/thing/idea in all the books and RLJ needing every sentence of the books twisted in its favor (that doesn't mean RLJ is wrong btw, it just doesn't need the entirety of the books).

Well, I don't particularly care if Jon is the most important snowflake or not, but the mystery of his origin is the big mystery of the series, big enough for the author to use it as a test question.

5 hours ago, Kienn said:

IMO there are many options for Ned being KotLT that are far more compelling than the popular Rhaegar + Lyanna in the forest fanfic. There are also a couple better options for Lyanna than the fanfic... but they still don't stand up to Ned.

Funny, I thought that the one theory that actually explains how and why the whole HH scandal and the subsequent abduction happened might actually be worth considering.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Quote

She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber.

George R. R. Martin. A Storm of Swords

 

3 hours ago, Kienn said:

I referenced Catelyn's comparison of current Ned (in AGoT) vs Ned during their wedding... Brandon is not mentioned.

Not to undermine your glorious victory, which I already admitted (congratz, drinks on me), but... could it be that you simply don't know what you're talking about? That you don't know the quote that's supposed to be your conclusive evidence, and didn't bother to look it up (asearchoficeandfire is an excellent tool, really, and free to boot)? (Also, you were two books off).

3 hours ago, Kienn said:

You guys are the ones trying to twist it into a Brandon comparison... Clearly impossible to debate people so dogmatic.

If you devoted less time to invent ways to insult your opponents, and more to actually work your case, I imagine your results would be slightly better. But are you willing to take the risk?

[Kingmonkey]

16 hours ago, Kienn said:

The replica was designed with input by GRRM and approved.

So was this replica: http://www.valyriansteel.com/shop/swords/king-roberts-warhammer/prod_14.html

Should we really believe that the "spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift" weighed just 10lb? I can't see how we can consider this a meaningful source. 

[Kienn]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

Not to undermine your glorious victory, which I already admitted (congratz, drinks on me), but... could it be that you simply don't know what you're talking about? That you don't know the quote that's supposed to be your conclusive evidence, and didn't bother to look it up (asearchoficeandfire is an excellent tool, really, and free to boot)? (Also, you were two books off).

If you devoted less time to invent ways to insult your opponents, and more to actually work your case, I imagine your results would be slightly better. But are you willing to take the risk?

Congrats! You've won a footlong sub for referring to the wrong quote for the 10th time.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

9 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Congrats! You've won a footlong sub for referring to the wrong quote for the 10th time.

No doubt.

The right quote, just for the record, being? The actual quote, I mean. Just paste it here. Not that I don't believe you, but some other people might, what with you referring to the legendary "quote" over and over, but never actually quoting the quote. Others might wonder. Not me, of course, but others.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

12 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Congrats! You've won a footlong sub for referring to the wrong quote for the 10th time.

Alright. Show us your quote then.