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The identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree


Ser Petyr Parker

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

the mystery of his origin is the big mystery of the series

Ah yes...

7-8 books

7-8 kingdoms

9 free cities

~30 PoVs

3 major languages (a ~dozen minor)

3-4 major religions (a ~dozen minor)

But 

1 Mystery

Guess I'm just interpreting the series a bit differently.

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20 hours ago, Livesundersink said:

That's just a replica, the real ice is described as being as tall as Robb and I doubt Robb is shorter than five feet

Sorry @Livesundersink I meant to quote @Kienn

Quote

Robb is described as being shorter than a 12 year old.

The replica was designed with input by GRRM and approved

Robb is tall 

Quote

If Robb was frightened, he gave no sign of it. Catelyn watched her son as he moved among the men, touching one on the shoulder, sharing a jest with another, helping a third to gentle an anxious horse. His armor clinked softly when he moved. Only his head was bare. Catelyn watched a breeze stir his auburn hair, so like her own, and wondered when her son had grown so big. Fifteen, and near as tall as she was.

Catelyn X AGOT

Quote

Let him grow taller, she asked the gods. Let him know sixteen, and twenty, and fifty. Let him grow as tall as his father, and hold his own son in his arms. Please, please, please. As she watched him, this tall young man with the new beard and the direwolf prowling at his heels, all she could see was the babe they had laid at her breast at Riverrun, so long ago.

AGOT - Catelyn X

So he's still shorter than Cat, but still tall (for his age). He's also shorter than his father, and his father appears to be tall in this context.

Quote

Catelyn watched her son mount up. Olyvar Frey held his horse for him, Lord Walder's son, two years older than Robb, and ten years younger and more anxious. He strapped Robb's shield in place and handed up his helm. When he lowered it over the face she loved so well, a tall young knight sat on his grey stallion where her son had been. It was dark among the trees, where the moon did not reach. When Robb turned his head to look at her, she could see only black inside his visor. "I must ride down the line, Mother," he told her. "Father says you should let the men see you before a battle."

He looks like a tall young knight when he's on horseback, even though he's shorter than Catelyn, indicating that Cat is quite tall herself, and any YOUNG knight, as in around 15-17, and not fully grown, wouldn't stand out as NOTABLY short, UNLESS he'd be quite a bit shorter than Robb and Cat. So probably EVEN (an adult) Littlefinger who is notably short, but ONLY 2 inches shorter than Cat, could look like a tall young knight on horseback. So the KOTLT had to be shorter than LF. 

Quote

Catelyn looked up at her tall kingly son. "Your Grace, I have prayed for your safe return. I had heard you were wounded."

Here Robb is taller than Cat, she doesn't indicate if he's as tall as his father yet, so presumably he isn't. 

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44 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Ah yes..

....

But 

1 Mystery

Guess I'm just interpreting the series a bit differently.

"The big mystery" does not mean its the only mystery, just that its the most significant one, you know? Plenty of room for other mysteries. I think a good deal of ASOIAF readers would agree that Jon's parentage is the biggest one, though. And I think if GRRM indeed asked D&D about the answer to that mystery as a test to see if they understood the series, then he probably agrees on its importance too.

Also I am interested in that quote about Ned's height too. I tried to look for it myself on search of ice and fire but no luck. Please provide.

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12 hours ago, Kienn said:

Guess I'm just interpreting the series a bit differently.

In other words: you cannot provide any quote to back your claim, you cannot provide a comprehensive theory of what Ned as KotLT accomplishes, but you are apparently having a time of your life ridiculing what others say. Which bridge do you live under again?

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Is it supposed to be this quote?

He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable, like the youth she had wed in the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone.

The same problem as with the Brandon quote - that 18 years old Ned was smaller than at 35 says only that he somewhat grew up (and most likely got broader in the shoulders), not that he was notably short at 18.

And yes, referencing his height has everything to do with Brandon because if Cat was to marry a knight and got a midget instead, she would have mentioned it in her thoughts in greater detail than just "shorter than Brandon".

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Is it supposed to be this quote?

He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable, like the youth she had wed in the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone.

The same problem as with the Brandon quote - that 18 years old Ned was smaller than at 35 says only that he somewhat grew up (and most likely got broader in the shoulders), not that he was notably short at 18.

And yes, referencing his height has everything to do with Brandon because if Cat was to marry a knight and got a midget instead, she would have mentioned it in her thoughts in greater detail than just "shorter than Brandon".

I agree, moreover she uses the word smaller here to refer to insecurity. 

Here's the full quote:

Quote

The wind swirled around him as he stood facing the dark, naked and empty-handed. Catelyn pulled the furs to her chin and watched him. He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable, like the youth she had wed in the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone. Her loins still ached from the urgency of his lovemaking. It was a good ache. She could feel his seed within her. She prayed that it might quicken there. It had been three years since Rickon. She was not too old. She could give him another son.

At this particular moment Ned is unsure whether he should become hand or not. He's thinking about refusing. It's the thought of having to become Hand that makes him look smaller.

At the time they married, Ned was about to start a war, which seems even more intimidating than beckoning Hand. He was also shy at 18, and his father and brother had just been murdered and his sister was kidnapped, and possibly dead as well. No wonder he didn't look as impressive as 35 yo Ned who's living a happy stable life! 

It's not a physical comparison it's about the impression one gives. 

Quote

Ser Rodrik managed a wry smile. "So soon?" He looked odd without his great white side whiskers; smaller somehow, less fierce, and ten years older. Yet back on the Bite it had seemed prudent to submit to a crewman's razor, after his whiskers had become hopelessly befouled for the third time while he leaned over the rail and retched into the swirling winds.

Here's another example that makes it quite clear that Cat uses "looking smaller" to refer to impressiveness, rather than height.

NB. Many tall people bend their shoulders in order to appear smaller, because they feel awkward about their height. When they become less insecure, and straighten their back, they'll look both taller, and broader. This could well have been the case with Ned, knowing that he was shy.

 

NB 2. Lots and lots of people are shorter than average, one has to be particularly short to stand out as NOTABLY short, especially on horseback. 

Now if the only thing mentioned in the KOTLT story was that (s)he was slender, a good case could surely be made for Ned, but the KOTLT was particularly short, which fits better with the 16yo girl, the crannogman, the really young boy or even the notably short 15yo Littlefinger. 

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  • 2 months later...

While through reading threads and different bits and pieces of evidence from people, I think it most likely Lyanna was the KOTLT, on my first read-through many years ago and without benefit of forums, I thought most of the evidence actually pointed to Jaime, and I still don't like to rule him out.  I'm giving him a 20% chance anyway, with 80% going to Lyanna.  So here's why I thought this on my first read-through:

1. Meera and Jojen, I think, likely think it's Lyanna, or Howland, but from the way they talk when the story ends, it is clear they actually don't know who it was.

2. Aerys believed it was Jaime.  He even believed Jaime as the KOTLT was going to kill him.  Prescient much? Jaime does end up killing Aerys.  It is curious in the WOIAF that the writer makes much of how ridiculous Aerys was being to believe it was Jaime, because we know WOIAF is written as a partial sop to the powers-that-be, one of whom is Tywin.  I thought myself, methinks he protests too much, because he gives no evidence to show it couldn't have been Jaime.  He's writing this in hindsight too.  My suspicion was that the writer thought it was Jaime, but over disclaimed it,because this is after the fact when Jaime had, in fact, killed Aerys.

3. Aerys knows Jaime.  He had just knighted him.  So the stature and size of the KOTLT did not dissuade Aerys from believing it was Jaime.  Jaime was fifteen at the time, probably not full-grown.  So his size/stature fit with the KOTLT.

3. Jaime was made a knight, then told to go home before the jousting began.  He was upset and angry.  We know this from WOIAF and from Jaime himself.  So Jaime had a motive to return the next day for the jousting.  He was a boy we know had grown up wanting to be a great knight in emulation of his heroes.  The idea of returning as a Mystery Knight would have had great appeal.

4. Jaime even gives us part of the memory of his departure, when he goes to the inn, but there his POV stops.  HIs memory is interrupted.  We don't know that he did not return.  And for those that might say, well, why hasn't this come out since, why hasn't Jaime told anyone now there is no danger to him - I'd say we have to remember that this is Jaime, who never told anyone about the reasons behind killing Aerys until Brienne.  He keeps his secrets, particularly the honorable ones, close to his chest.

5. Jaime has already gained a reputation by this point at being good with arms, and for helping Arthur Dayne defeat a knight called The Smiling Knight.  "Smiling" and "Laughing" are pretty similar, and it might have seemed a good joke to Jaime to one-up his recent enemy with a "laughing" - a more profound sign of pleasure than "smiling" - as his sigil.  The tree is an anomaly here that could be explained in a number of ways - did he hear Howland praying to the weirwood trees for a champion? - but I leave it out because I can only make the connection to the Smiling Knight as a reason for the Laughing Tree sigil.  Plus, Tyrion for one describes Jaime as "always laughing".  I know of no other character who is ascribed that characteristic.

6. Jaime had a very good reason for not revealing who he was or entering the lists as himself.  Aerys had commanded him home.  Revealing who he was meant the possibility of execution.

7. Okay, so that's all I've really got, EXCEPT, that Jaime makes almost the exact same parallel journey from Harrenhal later, and this time we know he does go back, and almost for the same reason.  In the first journey, if he did return, it was for the honour as a newly-made knight he felt was owed to him but also that he owed himself.  In the second journey, he has left Brienne at Harrenhal, had that dream on the weirwood stump, reached the same inn, and for reasons of honour, honour that he owes himself, he returns to help her, even knowing, as he did on the first journey, that he faced almost certain death.  His return to Harrenhal in the second instance marks very much a return to himself, to the honorable boy he was before that got twisted out of him by a macchiavelian father, brutal madman of a king, and vicious sister.  I would absolutely love Jaime to turn out to be the KOTLT for this very reason if for no other.

The things that convince me about Lyanna as KOTLT, who I had first dismissed as a candidate because we had no supporting evidence she could joust, or certainly joust well enough to unseat three minor champions, are any number of things now - I'll let others argue the case much better than I can.  But for pure evidence, Jaime could still turn out to be the KOTLT and nobody should be too surprised if that happens to be the case.  But nobody ever poses it.  I think it's because Jaime never mentions it, even though we see parts of his memory of those events, but as I said above, he might have been going to mention it in his POV memory, but that memory is interrupted.  Still, this is where my theory does fall down the most, I think.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

But for pure evidence, Jaime could still turn out to be the KOTLT and nobody should be too surprised if that happens to be the case.

I certainly would be surprised because Jaime as KOTLT contribute very little to the story - his story arc is focused on the present, on his redemption, for which a feat at the beginning of his career means very little. Whereas, with Lyanna, it explains the background of the current event, where we're very much in the dark so far.

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Another problem with Jaime as the mystery knight is that he has no known motivation to defend Howland Reed's honour. Was he even present when Howland was attacked? But even if he was secretly watching the scene somehow, I doubt he would enter the lists with this kind of purpose in mind. (Most knights - especially young, unexperienced ones - in the South would probably think a man should be able to defend his honour himself and those who can't do that deserve to be mocked.) Jaime would be more likely to enter the lists in order to win the tournament. Now he probably would realize at some point that it was time for him to disappear, just as the KOTLT did, but the KOTLT had apparently fulfilled a purpose before disappearing, a purpose that is much more difficult to associate with Jaime than with Lyanna. 

In addition, I tend to think that when a story is told in the novel, it is worth paying attention to who the story is told to. This story is told to a Stark.

Aerys believing the KOTLT to be Jaime may be important though - even for a paranoid mind it is easier to explain the jump from the appearance of a mystery knight defending the honour of a lesser house to the idea that said knight wants to kill him if he can link the knight to Tywin, his former friend and present-day enemy, whom he has just robbed of his heir, and - on top of that - when he has just humiliated his son by removing him from the tournament.

The Mad King's idea that Jaime was the KOTLT was probably based on Aerys's paranoia and fear of Tywin as well as on the knowledge that he had just wronged both Tywin and Jaime than on any actual evidence he might have had.   

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7 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

2. Aerys believed it was Jaime.  He even believed Jaime as the KOTLT was going to kill him. 

Regarding the latter - where is it stated? Did I miss something?

7 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

3. Aerys knows Jaime.  He had just knighted him.  So the stature and size of the KOTLT did not dissuade Aerys from believing it was Jaime.  Jaime was fifteen at the time, probably not full-grown.  So his size/stature fit with the KOTLT.

I don't think it's usual to be short at the age of fifteen, and get remarkably tall at adulthood.

And I wouldn't call Mad King Aerys "logical" and "observant".

7 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

3. Jaime was made a knight, then told to go home before the jousting began.  He was upset and angry.  We know this from WOIAF and from Jaime himself.  So Jaime had a motive to return the next day for the jousting.  He was a boy we know had grown up wanting to be a great knight in emulation of his heroes.  The idea of returning as a Mystery Knight would have had great appeal.

And challenge only the porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight and the knight of the twin towers, but pass the remaining two champions? That sounds like someone with a specific, personal, score to settle. That sounds like Stark or Reed, not Lannister. Should Jaime be in the mood to show them all that he were a gorram knight, I'd expect him to challenge and knock down all five champions of that day.

7 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

5. (...) Plus, Tyrion for one describes Jaime as "always laughing".

I tried to find it, but came up empty. Are you certain?

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I imagine the KotLT might well have been Lyanna if just because it would cover all our basis and possibly explain why Rhaegar gave the crown of blue roses to her rather than his wife. The world assumes it was a slight on her honour or the first indication that he was in love with her but it could have been just him secretly acknowledging and commending her for standing up for her friend at the joust. An innocent gesture that eventually evolved into something more, maybe, but something that was not what it appeared to be to everyone else. Only he, Lyanna and possibly Howland and Benjen would have known the true motivation behind it.

My personal reservation behind it is that I am not completely convinced that Lyanna would have managed to unhorse three knights being a fifteen-year-old girl. That said, it's just as likely as an untrained sixteen(ish)-year-old crannogman Howland or the thirteen(ish)-year-old boy Benjen doing it. Then, we have the sigil itself - the Laughing Tree. I have never quite understood why she would pick that sigil as it doesn't have any real connection to Lyanna on her own.

It's why I feel the KotLT was a mini-conspiracy between the three youngsters: Lyanna decided she was going to take her chances (maybe she even found a mare in heat like Loras did with his joust) as someone who was, at least, an excellent horse rider, Benjen located some armour for her to wear, and Howland provided the sigil as, of all of them, it holds the most connection to him as a student of the Green Men on the Isle of Faces. Can't you just imagine that the night before, when Howland stepped out of his and Ned's tent to pray towards the Isle of Faces for strength, that Lyanna and Benjen tottered out of the brushes giggling, telling him of their "solution"?

The three of them probably thought their conspiracy was all good fun and a perfect way to seek revenge. Howland clearly remembers the whole event very fondly but that tinge of sadness about the crown of love and beauty might hold some guilt for him too. He knows that had he, Lyanna and likely Benjen not concocted this plan, Rhaegar might never have given Lyanna a second glance and the war might have been avoided. Maybe, he might even feel responsible.

...Or it was magic. Frankly, I think Bran magically skinchanging Howland and Lyanna through his weird time-travel ability would be a neat reveal too. Though I suspect the above is the most likely chain of events. Either way, I would say that Meera and Jojen seem to know more about the events of the story than Meera imparted to Bran in his story.

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52 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

It was 13 year old Lyanna Stark

That was better at jousting than Loras at 16. It was just some knight nobody knows.

Edit: Nobody, Lyanna, Benjen, Reed, Ned could be KoTLT. Lyanna because she has no training in jousting, she is just good at riding, Benjen is to young, Reed can hardly practice jousting in mud, Ned is just not the kind of person to go for such mummer's farces.

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1 hour ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Nobody, Lyanna, Benjen, Reed, Ned could be KoTLT. Lyanna because she has no training in jousting, she is just good at riding,

As Jaime tells us, jousting is three quarter horsemanship, so she has 75% qualification. All that she would need would be practicing with the rings like one of the Targaryen princesses, or (TWOW spoiler) 

Spoiler

Elia Sand aka Lady Lance, whose hobby is jousting

We even have an opportunity - during the frequent rides with Brandon. He must have been mad, seeing what that innocent little wun led to. It might also add yet another motive for his beef with Rhaegar - given Aerys' paranoia towards KotLT, his sister definitely didn't need any more attention.

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I've never had any doubt in my mind that the jouster was Lyanna and 

Spoiler

taking into consideration that we're about to be introduced to Elia Sand, a 15 year old who is an excellent rider and jousts, GRRM is bringing her into the story for a reason. 

The character Lyanna reminds me of is Daena the Defiant before she was locked in the Maidenvault. Daena was an excellent rider, rode at rings, good with a bow, but was not allowed to joust IIRC. And she had the same character traits that Lyanna did. I didn't know Lyanna rode at rings since I have shunned the app.

tbh though, the thing that I find most fascinating about the whole episode of the KotLT is that Rhaegar was sent to look for this mystery knight the next morning after they did not appear on the field. And this timeline seems to be somewhat disregarded.

Lyanna did what she allegedly set out to do, so she has no reason to dress again, and if she had been present at the feast that same night (of the joust) and heard Robert and Richard Lonmouth saying they would unmask the knight and Aerys saying the mystery knight was no friend of his, it would have given her even less reason to go out on the field again. Rhaegar might have stumbled upon her accidentally after she was done with her joust or he already knew who was sitting that horse and challenging those knights. 

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4 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

It was 13 year old Lyanna Stark

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

As Jaime tells us, jousting is three quarter horsemanship, so she has 75% qualification. All that she would need would be practicing with the rings like one of the Targaryen princesses, or (TWOW spoiler) 

  Reveal hidden contents

Elia Sand aka Lady Lance, whose hobby is jousting

We even have an opportunity - during the frequent rides with Brandon. He must have been mad, seeing what that innocent little wun led to. It might also add yet another motive for his beef with Rhaegar - given Aerys' paranoia towards KotLT, his sister definitely didn't need any more attention.

This.

Bottom line is that while we don't actually know that Lyanna had ever jousted before she was one hell of a horsewoman. As for her age, she was in either 14th or 15th year when the tourney was on based on the fact that she was 16 when she died. Not that it really matters. Others have already noted earlier in this thread that, if all Starks are skinchangers, she might have had very good control over her horse which allowed them to quite literally move as one.

Spoiler

And as others have already said, the fourteen-year-old Elia Sand - same sort of age as Lyanna would have been during the tourney - AKA 'Lady Lance', a girl who is also an excellent horsewoman, seems custom built to be a somewhat ironically named nod to Lyanna Stark.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

As Jaime tells us, jousting is three quarter horsemanship, so she has 75% qualification. All that she would need would be practicing with the rings like one of the Targaryen princesses, or (TWOW spoiler) 

  Hide contents

Elia Sand aka Lady Lance, whose hobby is jousting

We even have an opportunity - during the frequent rides with Brandon. He must have been mad, seeing what that innocent little wun led to. It might also add yet another motive for his beef with Rhaegar - given Aerys' paranoia towards KotLT, his sister definitely didn't need any more attention.

75% being riding skill doesnt mean if you are great rider you posses 75% of the jousting skill. You need special riding skills related to justing that you can learn only by practicing it rider to rider, you cant just beat three knights first time jousting for real. It is like saying I am best in figure skating I can play hockey in NHL.

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1 hour ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

75% being riding skill doesnt mean if you are great rider you posses 75% of the jousting skill. You need special riding skills related to justing that you can learn only by practicing it rider to rider, you cant just beat three knights first time jousting for real. It is like saying I am best in figure skating I can play hockey in NHL.

If that were true, no-one would bother training with rings.,

Plus, figure skating and NHL are not the best example. You have seen a jousting tournament, right?

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35 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

If that were true, no-one would bother training with rings.,

Plus, figure skating and NHL are not the best example. You have seen a jousting tournament, right?

I have seen a jousting tournament but not live I also ride horses. Didn't say rings are pointless just somethings you have to learn jouster to jouster.

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