RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 3 hours ago, falcotron said: The first part, I agree with—but I think the obvious way for Aegon to not suffer many losses is for Tarly to switch sides before the upcoming battle, not later. As for the rest, I think you're confusing the Tarlys with another family, possibly the Hightowers. It's true that the Tyrells were never kings; Aegon I put them in charge because they were the stewards to the Gardeners, and they only have a maternal-line claim to being a cadet branch of the Gardeners, which almost every major house in the Reach has. But I don't think the Tarlys are one of the 6 families that have a paternal-line Gardener claim. Nor are they one of the 4 families that the Tyrells have been regularly trading daughters and nieces with since the conquest. Nor are they pre-Gardener Kings. The Hightowers, on the other hand, have all three of those claims. The reason the Tarlys matter so much, besides Randyll Tarly being Mace's general, is that they have a long tradition of military power. They're the ones who traditionally lead the Marcher Lords into battle with the Dornish, and the ones the Gardeners or Tyrells call up to lead the entire realm into battle. The big problem for this plan is that the Tarlys hate the Dornish even more than most of the other major houses (which comes with being a Marcher Lord), so it should be tricky for Aegon to get both Randyll and Doran on the same side. But I think that's what he's most likely to pull off anyway, however it happens. (In fact, it might be pretty interesting if he manages to also get the Carons—who we haven't heard about since they lost Dragonstone after holding it for Stannis—because, as the equivalent to the Tarlys on the other border of Dorne, they have the next best reason to hate the Martells.) Yes I agree with all of this, Tarly to switch sides early in the book & Aegon to control the Reach, Dorne & Stormlands early on. I think he'll then march on KL in force & who knows the ins & outs but I think the result is dead Cersei & Aegon sitting pretty for Dany's invasion with minimal losses. I think Dany will land by halfway into the next book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon Pie Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 I'm glad you changed your mind! Yes, the showmakers are trying to merge Jon and Aegon, but an important part of Aegon's dynamic is that he (99.9%) is an impostor. Jon, on the other hand, has been legitimized in the show (no matter how little sense it makes) and if they're trying to set it up so that he is now the legal heir to the Iron Throne, I don't know where they're trying to go with this, because his claim means NOTHING in comparison to Dany's not because of who's whose son, but because he doesn't have the dragons, the dothraki or the unsullied. The Iron Throne has NEVER been a part of Jon's struggle. He has never even contemplated sitting it. His ambition never went there at all, all we ever hear is that he wished he were a legitimate Stark of Winterfell and that he could have a claim to Winterfell, the home of the only father he ever knew. Dany on the other hand has struggled for the Iron Throne, she has fought for it. It has been her endgame since the beginning of the story. To all of a sudden erase that, to say that Dany's struggle doesn't matter (because oops your brother had a secret son, so now your six-season-long story means nothing, sorry kid) and that Jon's struggle (with bastardy) is now invalid too, and now he has a new thing to fight for, is extremely bad writing. Also this idea that "Jon will be a better king because he doesn't want to be the king" sounds admirable... in a Utopia or something. This is never the reality of things. Aegon the conqueror wanted to be the king of Westeros, and he united Westeros and gave it years of peace and prosperity. Robert Baratheon didn't want to be the king, he just wanted Lyanna back, and he was a terrible king (the only reason that the realm didn't plunge into chaos under him was Jon Arryn.) So, this idea that if you don't have ambition that makes you better at the job than the person who has the ambition, is simply ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 6 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said: The Iron Throne has NEVER been a part of Jon's struggle. He has never even contemplated sitting it. His ambition never went there at all, all we ever hear is that he wished he were a legitimate Stark of Winterfell and that he could have a claim to Winterfell, the home of the only father he ever knew. Dany on the other hand has struggled for the Iron Throne, she has fought for it. It has been her endgame since the beginning of the story. To all of a sudden erase that, to say that Dany's struggle doesn't matter (because oops your brother had a secret son, so now your six-season-long story means nothing, sorry kid) and that Jon's struggle (with bastardy) is now invalid too, and now he has a new thing to fight for, is extremely bad writing. The point of making Jon legitimate (which I expect to happen in the books too, although probably by legal Targ bigamy and/or a royal will, rather than by annulment) isn't to force him unwillingly onto the throne and erase Dany's struggle. And of course book!Dany is going to face two challenges to her legitimacy (she may never even find proof that Aegon is fake, even assuming he is), not just one, but the point of that isn't to erase Dany's story and turn it all into Aegon's story either. That would be bad writing, but it's not going to happen in the books any more than it will in the show. The point is to challenge Dany's beliefs, and to make her take the throne for the right reasons instead of the wrong ones. Dany not only thinks she should be Queen, but that she almost inevitably will be Queen, entirely because of her birthright. She needs her faith in the second half of that shaken before she can give up her faith in the first half. Renly, Tywin/Cersei, the Sand Snakes who want to crown Myrcella—they all get that a claim is just a foot in the door, and once you're in the fight, it doesn't matter at all whether your claim is better or worse than the other contenders. But Dany—just like Stannis—still hasn't really gotten that. Even after figuring out that the best way to win the realm is to save the realm, she still thinks she should and will win because she's the rightful heir. Facing Aegon will be how she learns that neither her birthright nor her inevitability are unassailable, and, more importantly, that the two aren't really that closely linked. Then, even though she'll be relieved to learn that he wasn't really Aegon after all (assuming she does), she'll still have a lot to think over. And what she'll realize is this: The reason she should be Queen (let's accept for the sake of argument that she should be) is not that her legal claim is slightly better than anyone else left alive; it's that the people she frees keep choosing her as Queen, the fact that she has the power to settle things, and the fact that she's been learning the hard way how to do the job. Once she figures that out, that's when she'll learn about Jon, who really does have a more legitimate claim than her, but still shouldn't be King. Giving (this part of) Aegon's story to Jon means they have to do it all in one realization, instead of as two separate realizations with a long period of internal monologuing in between, but that works better for TV anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 On 16. 8. 2017 at 9:16 PM, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said: Nice theory but I think they merged Cersei & Aegon, hence giving Cersei the Reach, Euron & Dorne. The fight between Cersei and Dany in the show is the battle between Dany & Aegon in the books I think you're right. Jon is too important to be merged with anyone. Book!Aegon probably dies in the battle we've seen in episode 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretWeapon Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Aegon was split into many characters for the show Dorne+Reach alliance after Margaery's death went to Dany Stuff-to-come-from-the-leaks + being the main opposing force against Dany went to Cersei (Cersei will still be the last Queen before the endgame ruler comes, whether is Dany, Jon, Tyrion or a dissolution of the IT) And being Aegon Targaryen went to Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Victarion and Euron were show merged so they could make Euron a more intimidating, swashbuckling, pirate, type, like we seen in the raid on Asha and Theons fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 On 2017-8-20 at 4:51 PM, WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive said: I think you're right. Jon is too important to be merged with anyone. Book!Aegon probably dies in the battle we've seen in episode 4. Well they have merged him with Stannis but that's to give him more of a role in the victories & uniting of the north Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugela Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 On 8/16/2017 at 7:52 AM, theMADdestScientist_ said: Since i heard about Rhaegar's annulment, i thought: why would D&D want to make Rhaegar annul his marriage to Elia? At first i thought it maked sense, but now i'm not so sure anymore. This got me thinking, and with some help, i realized that...this does not make sense for the books, but it does for the show. In the books, we have Aegon Targaryen/Young Griff, the supposed son of Rhaegar and Elia Martell, who survived the sack of King's Landing thanks to Varys. Many will agree with me that his role in the books will be to test Dany and see what she will do when she finds out about this kid with a far better claim to the throne. The book has already provided guidance in how she will react to Aegon. In her visions Quaithe warns her about false dragons among others who would try to deceive her. Danaerys will simply say he is not who he claims, and that the real Aegon died in Kings Landing. Then she will cut his head off for his impudence. History is written by the victors, and if Daenerys is the victor, Aegon WILL be an imposter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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