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Centurion Piso

Excessive Fan Service, Part II

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The show is a popular but it is a fad.  Just like fashion it will be forgotten as soon as the last episode airs because there is no depth to the story.  The only way to get it back to a good story, one that will be remembered, is to follow George Martin's story instead of trying to create their own. 

Excessive fan service ruined a good story.  I have held my opinions of the season so far to see if the writing will improve, but so far, it has not.  It seems to me that the Producers and the Writers of the show have sacrificed a good story and the potential for this show to become a landmark classic in favor of popularity.  Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss have decided that fleeting popularity is way more important than preserving the story for posterity.  

  1. Brienne vs. Arya.  This was an awful scene that violated not only the logic within the show's plot but common sense in general.  Let me take you back to the previous seasons and remind you of the Waif and her superiority over Arya.  Arya had no chance against the Waif.  Are we to believe that one of the best warriors in Westeros can't fight as good as the Waif!  So now Brienne is no longer as good a fighter as the Waif!  That illogical scene was put there to bring delight to Arya's fans and it did just that, but it made for a very poor story.  Worse than last season when Arya got stabbed and miraculously survived.  She survived and ran a marathon through an obstacle course!
  2. Dany vs. Jon.  How stupid is it to sail all the way to Dragonstone and expect a total stranger to buy your story that the dead are coming?  Very stupid.  Any person with a little bit of sense would have brought more than words.  Dany is right up there with Jon.  A little cave painting that may have been the doodlings of bored primitive people on a rainy day was enough to convince a very rational person.  It doesn't make sense.  For that matter, a logical man like Tyrion gives a silly reason for believing Jon.  Too much fan service again to make Jon look good.
  3. Sansa is a leader now!  Common HBO.  There is nothing in Sansa's past to prepare her for leadershipNothing.  Too much fan service just to appease those who were complaining when Sansa got raped two seasons ago. 
  4. HBO is too scared of complexity.  Which is the reason why they have dumbed down the story.  That is a shame.  Westworld had a complex plot that people did not understand until the end.  Yet, people still watched and enjoyed.  HBO, please do not shy away from complexity.  It's ok for the viewer to get confused once in a while. i
  5. Tyrion hatched a plan to fish for wights!  And he did this to convince his sister to do, what exactly?  Anybody who knows Cersei, the woman who blew up a sept full of people, would think this plan is crazy.  What's even crazier are the fools who bought into that plan.  What's the dwarf trying to do, kill everybody!  And this is the smartest guy on the show!
  6. Bronn and Jaime makes it back to King's Landing in one piece.  That plain was covered with Dothraki riders.  Those two had less chance of getting away than a fat chicken in a village of starving people.  At least one of those men should have died and one badly burned.

A Song of Ice and Fire is a masterpiece of story telling.  People a hundred years from now will read those books and feel the same way about the story as we do today.  Many future generations will enjoy those books as we have enjoyed them today.  While a show can never equal the books in terms of future enjoyment and posterity, it can at least strive to show a story that will have more value than quick, cheap, fan service.  It looks to me like the show has taken sides in the many Dany vs. Jon debates that fans have been had on many forums.  George himself does not do that.  Fans should not write the story because it then becomes "fan fiction" and no longer ASOIAF.  So much of what we're seeing on TV is just that, fan fiction.

It's not too late.  There is one more season to go.  There is time to get this story back on track.  The best way to do that is to stay faithful to George R.R. Martin's story.  Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, please do not let the fans write the story on the show.  You are both excellent authors in your own right.  I have read City of Thieves and it is very good work.  I am sure Mr. Benioff did not poll reddit just to see what his readers would like to see before writing his novel.  George RR Martin doesn't either.  Participating in the fan discussions and arguing back using the show is not good for the story.  Please, get back on track and stay as close as possible to Mr. Martin's vision. Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, put yourself in the author's place.  Would you want a show based on your books to change your story or would you rather the show creator stay faithful to your vision? 

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18 hours ago, Satoshi Takeda said:

The show is a popular but it is a fad.  Just like fashion it will be forgotten as soon as the last episode airs because there is no depth to the story.  The only way to get it back to a good story, one that will be remembered, is to follow George Martin's story instead of trying to create their own. 

Excessive fan service ruined a good story.  I have held my opinions of the season so far to see if the writing will improve, but so far, it has not.  It seems to me that the Producers and the Writers of the show have sacrificed a good story and the potential for this show to become a landmark classic in favor of popularity.  Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss have decided that fleeting popularity is way more important than preserving the story for posterity.  

  1. Brienne vs. Arya.  This was an awful scene that violated not only the logic within the show's plot but common sense in general.  Let me take you back to the previous seasons and remind you of the Waif and her superiority over Arya.  Arya had no chance against the Waif.  Are we to believe that one of the best warriors in Westeros can't fight as good as the Waif!  So now Brienne is no longer as good a fighter as the Waif!  That illogical scene was put there to bring delight to Arya's fans and it did just that, but it made for a very poor story.  Worse than last season when Arya got stabbed and miraculously survived.  She survived and ran a marathon through an obstacle course!
  2. Dany vs. Jon.  How stupid is it to sail all the way to Dragonstone and expect a total stranger to buy your story that the dead are coming?  Very stupid.  Any person with a little bit of sense would have brought more than words.  Dany is right up there with Jon.  A little cave painting that may have been the doodlings of bored primitive people on a rainy day was enough to convince a very rational person.  It doesn't make sense.  For that matter, a logical man like Tyrion gives a silly reason for believing Jon.  Too much fan service again to make Jon look good.
  3. Sansa is a leader now!  Common HBO.  There is nothing in Sansa's past to prepare her for leadershipNothing.  Too much fan service just to appease those who were complaining when Sansa got raped two seasons ago. 
  4. HBO is too scared of complexity.  Which is the reason why they have dumbed down the story.  That is a shame.  Westworld had a complex plot that people did not understand until the end.  Yet, people still watched and enjoyed.  HBO, please do not shy away from complexity.  It's ok for the viewer to get confused once in a while. i
  5. Tyrion hatched a plan to fish for wights!  And he did this to convince his sister to do, what exactly?  Anybody who knows Cersei, the woman who blew up a sept full of people, would think this plan is crazy.  What's even crazier are the fools who bought into that plan.  What's the dwarf trying to do, kill everybody!  And this is the smartest guy on the show!
  6. Bronn and Jaime makes it back to King's Landing in one piece.  That plain was covered with Dothraki riders.  Those two had less chance of getting away than a fat chicken in a village of starving people.  At least one of those men should have died and one badly burned.

A Song of Ice and Fire is a masterpiece of story telling.  People a hundred years from now will read those books and feel the same way about the story as we do today.  Many future generations will enjoy those books as we have enjoyed them today.  While a show can never equal the books in terms of future enjoyment and posterity, it can at least strive to show a story that will have more value than quick, cheap, fan service.  It looks to me like the show has taken sides in the many Dany vs. Jon debates that fans have been had on many forums.  George himself does not do that.  Fans should not write the story because it then becomes "fan fiction" and no longer ASOIAF.  So much of what we're seeing on TV is just that, fan fiction.

It's not too late.  There is one more season to go.  There is time to get this story back on track.  The best way to do that is to stay faithful to George R.R. Martin's story.  Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, please do not let the fans write the story on the show.  You are both excellent authors in your own right.  I have read City of Thieves and it is very good work.  I am sure Mr. Benioff did not poll reddit just to see what his readers would like to see before writing his novel.  George RR Martin doesn't either.  Participating in the fan discussions and arguing back using the show is not good for the story.  Please, get back on track and stay as close as possible to Mr. Martin's vision. Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, put yourself in the author's place.  Would you want a show based on your books to change your story or would you rather the show creator stay faithful to your vision? 

Maybe Tyrion is plotting to get everyone killed.  His actions are suspicious and that latest brain product of catching a wight reeks of stupidity.  Stupidity or just Tyrion playing everybody.  I don't understand how Tyrion kept his job after his mistakes.

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18 hours ago, Satoshi Takeda said:

The only way to get it back to a good story, one that will be remembered, is to follow George Martin's story instead of trying to create their own. 

Yes, this would be a great idea.

Unfortunately, GRRM's story doesn't actually exist. You may not have noticed this, but the sixth and seventh books still aren't out. So, D&D have four choices:

  1. Abandon the story in the middle.
  2. Delay the story for however many decades it takes, then figure out how to CGI the now-30-year-old actors to play their child character, and hope people still care.
  3. Build a time machine.
  4. Write their own story.

I'm sure they'd love to do #3, but, even with the First Doctor and Ashildr in their cast, it seems to have eluded them. They seem like they'd actually be happy with #1, but that would be career suicide. So they're stuck with #4.

And really, even if the story did exist, presumably it would be more books like ADwD, which just couldn't reasonably be adapted the same way as AGoT. It's much more focused on the characters' inner monologues, which doesn't work on TV. It takes far more pages for each equivalent plot advancement. It's much more full of flashbacks and sidetracks and references to earlier flashbacks and sidetracks. It introduces major new characters near the end of the story.

Honestly, AFfC and ADwD are not masterpieces of storytelling at all—they're masterpieces of character study and world building, but that's very different, and it's not something that translates to TV in the same way, and it would be disastrous to pretend otherwise.

Meanwhile, some of the problems with the show are even caused by them too faithfully copying the books. Some things that are easy to ignore in print become far more visible when they're visual. For example, the battle tactics never make any sense, but the books can be sufficiently vague about them that you can just assume it's a little off, while the show has to actually show you what's happening. For another example, people complain about some of the "cartoonish" costumes, but they're generally drastically toned down from the books. (Would viewers really take Euron more seriously if he looked like a Hanna Barbera parody of Jack Sparrow on acid?)

There are certainly ways they could improve the story, but "just follow GRRM more faithfully" is not the answer.

18 hours ago, Satoshi Takeda said:

A Song of Ice and Fire is a masterpiece of story telling.  People a hundred years from now will read those books and feel the same way about the story as we do today.

Or maybe it will be a notoriously unfinished series, and most people won't bother starting it, knowing that it doesn't lead anywhere and just ends with Dany still stuck on Essos and Aegon just arriving and announcing his plans and so on. Or, worse, maybe it'll be finished by someone who's no better than D&D, which will work a lot worse in novel form than in TV form, and completely ruin the series.

Or maybe it will be finished, but if so, it will be at minimum half a decade too late for the show, so it still doesn't matter.

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Excellent post. It seems that after this last episode, which felt as the icing on top of a quite unsavory cake, more and more people are criticizing the show. I basically agree with your analysis, and have already posted a thread about how fan servive has ruined Daenerys´s character.

 

It is true that the writers can not follow the original story anymore. But you know what? GRRM already gave them the secret of his writing and they are disregarding it completely. What do I mean? The conflict of the heart. Most characters do not show internal struggle any more, they are just one dimensional cartoons which only role is to serve the plot. And you are right, the reasons this has been done has nothing to do with them not having access to the original story, or being untalented writers. 

It is because they have made the conscious decision of going what they think is more profitable: fan service. The way most people are starting to react makes me wish that this awful choice backfires on them, forcing them to prepare something that is actually good for the last season. 

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4 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

That... doesn't make sense.  If they don't want people to spoil e6, why remove access to spoiler tags?  What's stopping people from just posting spoilers?

also... by e6 debacle, I assume you meant HBO releasing the episode by way of oops, or did something happen here?

  Reveal hidden contents

Test  spoiler tags seem to work  

 

Very interesting.  His post wasn't the only one in which I've seen the no permission box this morning.

 

There is a chat button in the bottom corner of the no permission box as if it were a separate page.  Maybe there's a formatting issue going on...

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Just now, Armand Gargalen said:

No clue what you mean. There is just a link to another thread...

Ah.  I apparently don't have access to it.  It's just a box that says No Permission.  And Sorry we can not show this content because you do not have permission to see it   

 

Maybe the thread was locked?  Or... is it just me?  

 

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7 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Very interesting.  His post wasn't the only one in which I've seen the no permission box this morning.

 

There is a chat button in the bottom corner of the no permission box as if it were a separate page.  Maybe there's a formatting issue going on...

Ah. Ok. So I'm not the only one seeing those pop up in threads.  

Whew...

sorry for the thread derail OP. 

@Illiterati  test link looks ok.  

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20 hours ago, Satoshi Takeda said:

The show is a popular but it is a fad.  Just like fashion it will be forgotten as soon as the last episode airs because there is no depth to the story.  The only way to get it back to a good story, one that will be remembered, is to follow George Martin's story instead of trying to create their own. 

Excessive fan service ruined a good story.  I have held my opinions of the season so far to see if the writing will improve, but so far, it has not.  It seems to me that the Producers and the Writers of the show have sacrificed a good story and the potential for this show to become a landmark classic in favor of popularity.  Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss have decided that fleeting popularity is way more important than preserving the story for posterity.  

  1. Brienne vs. Arya.  This was an awful scene that violated not only the logic within the show's plot but common sense in general.  Let me take you back to the previous seasons and remind you of the Waif and her superiority over Arya.  Arya had no chance against the Waif.  Are we to believe that one of the best warriors in Westeros can't fight as good as the Waif!  So now Brienne is no longer as good a fighter as the Waif!  That illogical scene was put there to bring delight to Arya's fans and it did just that, but it made for a very poor story.  Worse than last season when Arya got stabbed and miraculously survived.  She survived and ran a marathon through an obstacle course!
  2. Dany vs. Jon.  How stupid is it to sail all the way to Dragonstone and expect a total stranger to buy your story that the dead are coming?  Very stupid.  Any person with a little bit of sense would have brought more than words.  Dany is right up there with Jon.  A little cave painting that may have been the doodlings of bored primitive people on a rainy day was enough to convince a very rational person.  It doesn't make sense.  For that matter, a logical man like Tyrion gives a silly reason for believing Jon.  Too much fan service again to make Jon look good.
  3. Sansa is a leader now!  Common HBO.  There is nothing in Sansa's past to prepare her for leadershipNothing.  Too much fan service just to appease those who were complaining when Sansa got raped two seasons ago. 
  4. HBO is too scared of complexity.  Which is the reason why they have dumbed down the story.  That is a shame.  Westworld had a complex plot that people did not understand until the end.  Yet, people still watched and enjoyed.  HBO, please do not shy away from complexity.  It's ok for the viewer to get confused once in a while. i
  5. Tyrion hatched a plan to fish for wights!  And he did this to convince his sister to do, what exactly?  Anybody who knows Cersei, the woman who blew up a sept full of people, would think this plan is crazy.  What's even crazier are the fools who bought into that plan.  What's the dwarf trying to do, kill everybody!  And this is the smartest guy on the show!
  6. Bronn and Jaime makes it back to King's Landing in one piece.  That plain was covered with Dothraki riders.  Those two had less chance of getting away than a fat chicken in a village of starving people.  At least one of those men should have died and one badly burned.

A Song of Ice and Fire is a masterpiece of story telling.  People a hundred years from now will read those books and feel the same way about the story as we do today.  Many future generations will enjoy those books as we have enjoyed them today.  While a show can never equal the books in terms of future enjoyment and posterity, it can at least strive to show a story that will have more value than quick, cheap, fan service.  It looks to me like the show has taken sides in the many Dany vs. Jon debates that fans have been had on many forums.  George himself does not do that.  Fans should not write the story because it then becomes "fan fiction" and no longer ASOIAF.  So much of what we're seeing on TV is just that, fan fiction.

It's not too late.  There is one more season to go.  There is time to get this story back on track.  The best way to do that is to stay faithful to George R.R. Martin's story.  Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, please do not let the fans write the story on the show.  You are both excellent authors in your own right.  I have read City of Thieves and it is very good work.  I am sure Mr. Benioff did not poll reddit just to see what his readers would like to see before writing his novel.  George RR Martin doesn't either.  Participating in the fan discussions and arguing back using the show is not good for the story.  Please, get back on track and stay as close as possible to Mr. Martin's vision. Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, put yourself in the author's place.  Would you want a show based on your books to change your story or would you rather the show creator stay faithful to your vision? 

You can blame any problems with the story on GRRM.

And GRRM as well as D&D have both stated that the show will deviate (and it has) from the books in order to make it work on tv but all the main events and characters that matter will end up in the show.  GRRM gave them the summary of how this thing will play out.  Given those facts it is probably safe to assume that many of the things people complain about are actually part of GRRM's actual summary given to D&D only without the details that allow for those events to make much sense (D&D have to fill in the gaps).

I think the main reason we are only getting a cut down final two seasons is GRRM still hasn't figured out, himself, how he is going to bring all this together other than an overview which means there simply isn't much outline to follow at this point so we are getting the main events and nothing more now so that D&D can do what GRRM refuses to do......finish the story.

The show is firing on all cylinders right now anyway.  Anybody complaining about the story telling on this show isn't really watching it imo.

The story telling is outstanding in show and has been the entire time.

It'd have been nice of GRRM to actually finish the story for the book fans so that we don't have these topics constantly but he didn't so we have to sit through the endless petty criticism of D&D actually going ahead and finishing the story (basically how GRRM said he'd wind it up).

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At the same time, there has been a marked change since the script left the books.  Now, we get hard focus on one plotline while the rest of them are visited to show us they are still there, but don't move forward at all.KL and WF are both prime examples of that.  A story that used to fire on all cylinders, with several of the plotlines taking a burst forward in a single or couple episodes, is now only firing one cylinder within an episode or two.  D&D need to check their timing belt, distributor, and spark plugs.

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24 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

At the same time, there has been a marked change since the script left the books.  Now, we get hard focus on one plotline while the rest of them are visited to show us they are still there, but don't move forward at all.KL and WF are both prime examples of that.  A story that used to fire on all cylinders, with several of the plotlines taking a burst forward in a single or couple episodes, is now only firing one cylinder within an episode or two.  D&D need to check their timing belt, distributor, and spark plugs.

I understand people aren't happy with certain parts not moving (WW walking in circles) but we simply do not know how GRRM is going to explain this stuff himself (or if he ever will do so).

Maybe the reason he can't get the next two books out is because he, himself, is at a loss on how to bring all the pieces together for the big finish without running into the same issues the show is running into (storylines get stuck in place while the other pieces need further development).

Perhaps he's simply stuck when it comes to figuring out how this happens so he decided to work on other stuff until some solution comes to him.  I suspect this has a lot to do with why he can't finish the last two books.

D&D can't simply wait until a solution presents itself to how this happens or that happens.  Why are the WW not moving towards the wall all season?  What are they doing up there that's taking so long?  D&D decide not to even address it probably because GRRM hasn't even figured that out himself yet really and it doesn't really matter in the tv show.

They are using the cards they were dealt.  The blame falls squarely on GRRM because when this series started 8 years ago D&D surely expected to have at least a rough draft (with the editors) of the final books prior to this year.

And the show is still hitting on all cylinders.  Episode 4 was as good as any episode so far.  The intrigue and drama is still kicking along making for some great tv.

The characters are developed.  We don't need much more of that.  All we need are the resolutions so we can wrap it all up.

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2 hours ago, falcotron said:

snip

Quality post. Stole the words out of my, er, keyboard.

Anyway, when it comes to fan service I'm usually chill. I thought Davos telling Gendry "I thought you were still rowing" while looking straight at the camera and winking was fine, but the meme font that appeared on the screen and the canned laughter was a bit much. 

 

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1 hour ago, Illiterati said:

Very interesting.  His post wasn't the only one in which I've seen the no permission box this morning.

 

There is a chat button in the bottom corner of the no permission box as if it were a separate page.  Maybe there's a formatting issue going on...

I just realized my thread is pending for approval. I did not know this was a thing

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I wish GRRM was as generous with fan service as D&D.  D&D may have given the masses reunions and character meetups that were illogical but many were hoping for, GRRM illogically gives the masses new side project books that nobody was asking for.

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On 8/16/2017 at 5:32 PM, Satoshi Takeda said:

The show is a popular but it is a fad.  Just like fashion it will be forgotten as soon as the last episode airs because there is no depth to the story.  The only way to get it back to a good story, one that will be remembered, is to follow George Martin's story instead of trying to create their own. 

 

The show is a fad and I agree. 

In my opinion, it is too late to get it back on track.  Cheer up, the next book is coming.  Use the show as something to tide you over until George releases the real story.  The Winds of Winter is the real story of aSoIaF and not that fan-driven/written story on TV.

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