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Centurion Piso

Excessive Fan Service, Part II

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17 minutes ago, lancerman said:

In fact I bet there are more people alive today who watched the LOTR movies than read the books. 

Well duh. It was published in the 50s and the Hobbit in the 30s.  

But I'd be willing to bet that there are more readers of those books who have died than people alive who watched the movies.  

 who really cares about how many people read the books vs how many watch the show or saw movies?  That's lame playground Superman vs Mightymouse BS.  

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It's one thing for them to write their own story, but they don't seem invested at all in actually creating a good or interesting story.  They have their favorites and they need to work some tits in.

By playing favorites they have worked themselves into corners like an invincible Arya and Littlefinger with no plan.

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On 8/17/2017 at 10:38 AM, falcotron said:

Yes, this would be a great idea.

Unfortunately, GRRM's story doesn't actually exist. You may not have noticed this, but the sixth and seventh books still aren't out. So, D&D have four choices:

  1. Abandon the story in the middle.
  2. Delay the story for however many decades it takes, then figure out how to CGI the now-30-year-old actors to play their child character, and hope people still care.
  3. Build a time machine.
  4. Write their own story.

I'm sure they'd love to do #3, but, even with the First Doctor and Ashildr in their cast, it seems to have eluded them. They seem like they'd actually be happy with #1, but that would be career suicide. So they're stuck with #4.

And really, even if the story did exist, presumably it would be more books like ADwD, which just couldn't reasonably be adapted the same way as AGoT. It's much more focused on the characters' inner monologues, which doesn't work on TV. It takes far more pages for each equivalent plot advancement. It's much more full of flashbacks and sidetracks and references to earlier flashbacks and sidetracks. It introduces major new characters near the end of the story.

Honestly, AFfC and ADwD are not masterpieces of storytelling at all—they're masterpieces of character study and world building, but that's very different, and it's not something that translates to TV in the same way, and it would be disastrous to pretend otherwise.

Meanwhile, some of the problems with the show are even caused by them too faithfully copying the books. Some things that are easy to ignore in print become far more visible when they're visual. For example, the battle tactics never make any sense, but the books can be sufficiently vague about them that you can just assume it's a little off, while the show has to actually show you what's happening. For another example, people complain about some of the "cartoonish" costumes, but they're generally drastically toned down from the books. (Would viewers really take Euron more seriously if he looked like a Hanna Barbera parody of Jack Sparrow on acid?)

There are certainly ways they could improve the story, but "just follow GRRM more faithfully" is not the answer.

Or maybe it will be a notoriously unfinished series, and most people won't bother starting it, knowing that it doesn't lead anywhere and just ends with Dany still stuck on Essos and Aegon just arriving and announcing his plans and so on. Or, worse, maybe it'll be finished by someone who's no better than D&D, which will work a lot worse in novel form than in TV form, and completely ruin the series.

Or maybe it will be finished, but if so, it will be at minimum half a decade too late for the show, so it still doesn't matter.

 

On 8/17/2017 at 0:17 PM, Lord Okra said:

I understand people aren't happy with certain parts not moving (WW walking in circles) but we simply do not know how GRRM is going to explain this stuff himself (or if he ever will do so).

Maybe the reason he can't get the next two books out is because he, himself, is at a loss on how to bring all the pieces together for the big finish without running into the same issues the show is running into (storylines get stuck in place while the other pieces need further development).

Perhaps he's simply stuck when it comes to figuring out how this happens so he decided to work on other stuff until some solution comes to him.  I suspect this has a lot to do with why he can't finish the last two books.

D&D can't simply wait until a solution presents itself to how this happens or that happens.  Why are the WW not moving towards the wall all season?  What are they doing up there that's taking so long?  D&D decide not to even address it probably because GRRM hasn't even figured that out himself yet really and it doesn't really matter in the tv show.

They are using the cards they were dealt.  The blame falls squarely on GRRM because when this series started 8 years ago D&D surely expected to have at least a rough draft (with the editors) of the final books prior to this year.

And the show is still hitting on all cylinders.  Episode 4 was as good as any episode so far.  The intrigue and drama is still kicking along making for some great tv.

The characters are developed.  We don't need much more of that.  All we need are the resolutions so we can wrap it all up.

 

On 8/17/2017 at 1:48 PM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I wish GRRM was as generous with fan service as D&D.  D&D may have given the masses reunions and character meetups that were illogical but many were hoping for, GRRM illogically gives the masses new side project books that nobody was asking for.

All great posts. Thanks guys. You saved me a lot of writing...

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9 hours ago, Bear42 said:

 It's like if you stopped a chess game between two masters right in the middle and swapped them out with two people who don't even know the rules, they just know which pieces are supposed to be left at the end.  Sure a knight might move like a rook and a pawn might take a few steps backwards, but those are just annoying details.

This is EPIC...

The real chess stopped in Season 5. Now the chess pieces move how the "majority" of dumb fans want them to move.

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The shows quality dipped at the same time the books became bloated and over indulgent. The show then picked up quality but sped up and got fan service-y right around the time GRRM is supposed to use only two books to close out his hundred plots. 

Its not a coincidence. 

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The book and TV show are two versions of the same story. There is no way to reconcile the two now because they are far too different. They have bifurcated in separate directions. How would or could they come together again? Just enjoy what you can and try not to compare them.

The tv show is pop corn. The book is a ribeye steak dinner with all the fixings. Problem is there so much to the dinner that the chef will probably never finish making all the courses he intended to serve...

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44 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

The tv show is pop corn. The book is a ribeye steak dinner with all the fixings. Problem is there so much to the dinner that the chef will probably never finish making all the courses he intended to serve...

Those are valid points, Green Knight.  However, criticisms of the show are fair because David and Dan have allowed the plot to be influenced by the fans.  That's a recipe for a bad, disjointed story that lack continuity.  To give an example, why would Varys be bothered by the executions of the Tarlys when last season he didn't hesitate to build an alliance with the Sand Snakes who murdered an innocent girl?  Randyll and Dickon were not innocent of anything.  They betrayed the Tyrells and sacked Lady Ollena's castle.  The character is wildly inconsistent.

The writing is very poor on the show.  Yes there are good moments like the Field of Fire and the roasting of the Tarlys.  But there are more bad scenes than good.  Why, why would anybody agree to go all the way north to bring back a wight for Cersei?  That's plain crazy.  Hell, present Jon to Cersei.  He's a wight boy (at least in the books).  By story logic Jon is a wight.  Gregor is a wight.  That doesn't bother Cersei.  The heroes are being set up by the Imp to become the next victim of another Red Wedding, courstesy of the Lannisters.  Tyrion's advice caused the loss of the Tyrells and the Sands.  It is beyond comprehension that he still is the Hand of the Queen.  Were I in Dany's position, I would make Tyrion prove his loyalty.  Give him a dagger, tell him to arrange a meeting with Jaime, and kill that damned kingslayer, then bring back that golden head for proof. 

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12 hours ago, The Knight in Motley said:

It's one thing for them to write their own story, but they don't seem invested at all in actually creating a good or interesting story.  They have their favorites and they need to work some tits in.

By playing favorites they have worked themselves into corners like an invincible Arya and Littlefinger with no plan.

:agree:

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20 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Those are valid points, Green Knight.  However, criticisms of the show are fair because David and Dan have allowed the plot to be influenced by the fans.  That's a recipe for a bad, disjointed story that lack continuity.  To give an example, why would Varys be bothered by the executions of the Tarlys when last season he didn't hesitate to build an alliance with the Sand Snakes who murdered an innocent girl?  Randyll and Dickon were not innocent of anything.  They betrayed the Tyrells and sacked Lady Ollena's castle.  The character is wildly inconsistent.

The writing is very poor on the show.  Yes there are good moments like the Field of Fire and the roasting of the Tarlys.  But there are more bad scenes than good.  Why, why would anybody agree to go all the way north to bring back a wight for Cersei?  That's plain crazy.  Hell, present Jon to Cersei.  He's a wight boy (at least in the books).  By story logic Jon is a wight.  Gregor is a wight.  That doesn't bother Cersei.  The heroes are being set up by the Imp to become the next victim of another Red Wedding, courstesy of the Lannisters.  Tyrion's advice caused the loss of the Tyrells and the Sands.  It is beyond comprehension that he still is the Hand of the Queen.  Were I in Dany's position, I would make Tyrion prove his loyalty.  Give him a dagger, tell him to arrange a meeting with Jaime, and kill that damned kingslayer, then bring back that golden head for proof. 

I think you misunderstood my post. I agree with you. That's why I compared the show and books as popcorn and a full course meal. 

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27 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

I think you misunderstood my post. I agree with you. That's why I compared the show and books as popcorn and a full course meal. 

:)

English is the not first language of everyone on this forum.  Ok.

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15 hours ago, Heathen Librarian said:

The first time the fan service really struck me was when Tyrion met with Dany in Mereen. As much as I want them to meet in the books that just felt like fan service and I didn't like it. I don't want to be catered to, I want the real story. But other commentators on this thread are correct that some of the blame does lie with George. The writers of the show were meant to be adapting his story and if he doesn't have a story for them to adapt...

I don´t know how the blame for a poorly written show can ever be put on GRRM. He is just responsible for his own work, the books.

When the showrunners started the project, they were perfectly aware of the author´s pace. He might have promised them to deliver, but "words are wind", so before they even tried to convince HBO to put money into the project, they should have had a contingency plan.

After they run out of source material, they had many different ways to continue the story. It is easy to see that they made a conscious decision to pay lip service to the fandom, trying to make as much money out of the show as possible, and with little regard to artistic quality. 

There are plenty book adaptations which retain their artistic quality after they run out of or deviate from the source material. The main reason is that the people running them still care about remaining faithful to the spirit of the work. That is something that could have, but did not, happen in regards with the adaptation of ASOIAF into GOT.

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4 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

To give an example, why would Varys be bothered by the executions of the Tarlys when last season he didn't hesitate to build an alliance with the Sand Snakes who murdered an innocent girl?

That's a pretty silly example.

Varys is bothered that Dany burned the Tarlys alive because Dany is the person he's trying to put on the throne, and he's worried that he may have made a dangerous choice, because there may be more of her father in her than he'd hoped.

Varys isn't trying to put the Sand Snakes on the throne. They already rule Dorne (and if worst comes to worst, they can even be removed later, after the war is won), and he's not helping them to take over anything else. Meanwhile, they can bring one of the Seven Kingdoms, and one of the few with a fresh army, to Dany's side. So of course he built an alliance with them.

This is perfectly rational, and perfectly in keeping with Varys's character.

3 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Hell, present Jon to Cersei.  He's a wight boy (at least in the books).  By story logic Jon is a wight.  Gregor is a wight.  That doesn't bother Cersei.

Why does Dany need to show her dragons flying over Westers to scare the Lannisters? Sparrows fly. Seagulls fly. That doesn't bother Cersei. It's the same thing here. The point isn't to bother Cersei, or to prove to her that undeath is possible, it's to prove to her that the Night King is raising an army of ice wights. Jon and Gregor are not ice wights raised by the Night king, so they're not evidence at all.

(The reason it's a stupid plan is that Cersei already believes the Night King and his army of the dead exist, and is already talking with her brother about the need to deal with them, so they're trying to convince her of something she's already convinced of. And also because, if it were necessary, there would be better ways to convince her—bring multiple witnesses down to KL; offer to show Jaime the army of the dead from a safe distance; capture a wight without risking a king, your only generals, and half your most trusted advisors; etc. But Jon showing up and saying "Look, I'm a fire wight, raised by R'hllor, so obviously there must be an army of the dead out there raised by the Night King" would be silly.)

Seriously, if your complaints about the show are all things like this, I think you have a different problem with the show than me. You're obviously not too dumb for the show, so the only explanation I can see is that you're so dedicated to hate-watching that you're bending over backward to misunderstand every scene whenever possible to make it bad. The show would not be improved by catering to people like that. I'd honestly rather have them catering to the fanboys.

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On 2017. 08. 17. at 6:38 PM, falcotron said:

 

Unfortunately, GRRM's story doesn't actually exist. You may not have noticed this, but the sixth and seventh books still aren't out. So, D&D have four choices:

  1. Abandon the story in the middle.
  2. Delay the story for however many decades it takes, then figure out how to CGI the now-30-year-old actors to play their child character, and hope people still care.
  3. Build a time machine.
  4. Write their own story.

I'm sure they'd love to do #3, but, even with the First Doctor and Ashildr in their cast, it seems to have eluded them. They seem like they'd actually be happy with #1, but that would be career suicide. So they're stuck with #4.

[...]

This, basically. 

I've been trashing the show a lot since season 6 too, because the writing is appalling, but bad writing > no writing any day. D&D at least finish GRRM's story (which he won't, even if by some miracle he does publish WoW in 2019-2020) and that's an unbeatable argument in their favor. 

And if people remember GoT in 30 years, it will be because D&D finished the story, not because grrm left it open in the middle. And yes we all know there wouldn't be a story if it wasn't for GRRM and we all love him for that. But we are past the books are better phase because there are no books at this point in the story. There's the show and there's 6 years of pushing deadlines and making false promises. You can compare the show to the show or other shows, but you can't say GRRM is better anymore because GRRM doesn't have a version of the current story. D&D do. They can't write, but they do their job. Like who do you hire to build your furniture? Someone who makes the shelves crooked and the paint streaky or someone who doesn't build it at all? D&D suck but they still win this question.  

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I have to agree with the OP's comment about the show becoming fanfiction. I recently rewatched the rest of the show with a friend (a newcomer to the show) and was annoyed by a lot of the Easter eggs they dropped in reference to the first and second seasons. The thing is, with a character, they shouldn't be the same person that they were in season one in the second-to-last season. But, then again, with their departure from the books, Benioff and Weiss's following of the intended end game is kind of pointless. When you're writing a book or telling a story, usually your character(s) undergoes some sort of change, adapts, or learns something by the end of it. But, by changing some of the characters' arcs to streamline the show or to avoid hiring another actress/actor, they've muddled these character arcs.

This is most notable with Sansa. Book spoilers below.

Spoiler

In the book Sansa isn't married to Ramsey, Jeyne Poole is, and the Boltons are led to believe that she is Arya.  In the books, Sansa is led by Baelish to marry Harrold the Heir, the man that would inherit the Vale if the sickly Robert Arryn dies. But the show runners shrugged this change off by (basically) saying, "Why hire another actress when we have Sophie Turner?". Sansa's rape is contested because it never happened in the books. Plus, for a character whose story (up to that point) is largely about learning how to maneuver in court while toeing the dangers of court, it makes little sense for her or for Littlefinger to send her to the Boltons. Sansa was in his grasps. He wants her. He says this. It's obvious. Any time the show tries to explain Littlefinger's reasoning for this decision, it doesn't hold. Probably because it is extremely out of character.

And this "small" change/decision is biting Benioff and Weiss in the ass now. Just look at the mess they have in this season. The Starks vs. Littlefinger plot is ridiculous. Honestly I suspect that it will be revealed, in the books, Littlefinger is killed before they leave the Vale and Sansa makes a power-play. As many people have said, it's clear that show-Littlefinger has outlived his usefulness and the writers' treatment of him is ridiculous. 

But I digress. Honestly, Sansa's development was shaping her to become a mixture of her teachers (Cersei, Margarey [a student of Olenna's], and Littlefinger). If they wanted to do right by Sansa (or show that she had learned anything at court instead of having her talk big), she would remember how Margarey "seduced" Joffrey and she'd remember the value of spies. Instead you have a false empowerment arc where Sansa struts around talking big and acting tough (her boldly telling Miranda [Ramsey's girl] "Winterfell is my home. You cannot frighten me here." on her wedding night). This bravado disappears after she is raped. She then regresses back to who she was under Joffrey's thumb. In fact, the only character that grows throughout this experience is Theon Greyjoy. Does Sansa's rape change the storyline henceforth? No. Does she shudder at another man's touch? No. This was only a cheap move to save money and the trouble of hiring another actress. If Sansa's arc had followed the trajectory of the books, I imagine we would find this "leader" Sansa more believable.

On another note, I wouldn't blame GRRM for the show's pitfalls. I know we don't have the sixth book but he did tell Benioff and Weiss how it ends. They've known the show's end game since the beginning and they're the ones that have chosen to cut corners. They eliminated book-Dorne and show-Dorne's storyline suffered. They eliminated Lady Stoneheart and the Riverlands' storyline has been reshaped (I imagine Jaime's Riverun-siege would go very different if Lady Stoneheart were a character within the show). They eliminated Aegon and now this season's political intrigue is, frankly, nonexistent.

Honestly we have to stop blaming GRRM. The showrunners knew the book's end. They chose to cut corners to streamline the story, even when GRRM protested against their changes. Additionally, since GRRM told Benioff and Weiss about Hodor's end and the significance of it, I find it hard to believe that they didn't consult him on other things or, at the very least, that they can't call him when faced with questions. 

The problem with season 7 is that Benioff and Weiss are bored. They are done with this season. They want to move on with their lives. They have cut the run time on several episodes this season, sped up the plot, and cut the episode count short--because they're lazy, burn-out storytellers that can't be bothered to do the work. That's not GRRM's fault.

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36 minutes ago, Keala said:

 The problem with season 7 is that Benioff and Weiss are bored. They are done with this season. They want to move on with their lives. They have cut the run time on several episodes this season, sped up the plot, and cut the episode count short--because they're lazy, burn-out storytellers that can't be bothered to do the work. That's not GRRM's fault.

The show runners cannot be as good writers as Martin. And Martin did originally start writing the books because the medium did not involve constraints of a television show. Saying Benioff and Weiss are bored/lazy would be unfair.

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2 hours ago, falcotron said:

That's a pretty silly example.

Varys is bothered that Dany burned the Tarlys alive because Dany is the person he's trying to put on the throne, and he's worried that he may have made a dangerous choice, because there may be more of her father in her than he'd hoped.

Varys isn't trying to put the Sand Snakes on the throne. They already rule Dorne (and if worst comes to worst, they can even be removed later, after the war is won), and he's not helping them to take over anything else. Meanwhile, they can bring one of the Seven Kingdoms, and one of the few with a fresh army, to Dany's side. So of course he built an alliance with them.

This is perfectly rational, and perfectly in keeping with Varys's character.

Why does Dany need to show her dragons flying over Westers to scare the Lannisters? Sparrows fly. Seagulls fly. That doesn't bother Cersei. It's the same thing here. The point isn't to bother Cersei, or to prove to her that undeath is possible, it's to prove to her that the Night King is raising an army of ice wights. Jon and Gregor are not ice wights raised by the Night king, so they're not evidence at all.

(The reason it's a stupid plan is that Cersei already believes the Night King and his army of the dead exist, and is already talking with her brother about the need to deal with them, so they're trying to convince her of something she's already convinced of. And also because, if it were necessary, there would be better ways to convince her—bring multiple witnesses down to KL; offer to show Jaime the army of the dead from a safe distance; capture a wight without risking a king, your only generals, and half your most trusted advisors; etc. But Jon showing up and saying "Look, I'm a fire wight, raised by R'hllor, so obviously there must be an army of the dead out there raised by the Night King" would be silly.)

Seriously, if your complaints about the show are all things like this, I think you have a different problem with the show than me. You're obviously not too dumb for the show, so the only explanation I can see is that you're so dedicated to hate-watching that you're bending over backward to misunderstand every scene whenever possible to make it bad. The show would not be improved by catering to people like that. I'd honestly rather have them catering to the fanboys.

Now this is a weird one! I have no idea how you got that quote to attribute to me because I sure as hell didn't write it? Anybody know how that can happen? I've never seen that before on any forum I visit...

I just went back and checked. That was Wolfsbane's quote. I quoted him in my post but it was his statement not mine. Just for clarity's sake...

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20 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Now this is a weird one! I have no idea how you got that quote to attribute to me because I sure as hell didn't write it? Anybody know how that can happen? I've never seen that before on any forum I visit...

I just went back and checked. That was Wolfsbane's quote. I quoted him in my post but it was his statement not mine. Just for clarity's sake...

I'm not sure how it happened either. I quoted the same message twice, and edited both down, and somehow one ended up as a different quote? But then the rich-text editor on this site is wonky as hell. (For example, if you paste a quote at the end of your message, there's no way to scroll past the quote to add more text after; you have to cut the quote, add some text, then go re-paste the quote in the gap.) So…

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3 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I'm not sure how it happened either. I quoted the same message twice, and edited both down, and somehow one ended up as a different quote? But then the rich-text editor on this site is wonky as hell. (For example, if you paste a quote at the end of your message, there's no way to scroll past the quote to add more text after; you have to cut the quote, add some text, then go re-paste the quote in the gap.) So…

Yes, I'm having issues with it as well. If I try to go back and edit a pos for more material quite often I can't get at the bottom of my message to add more either. Meh, what can one do...

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7 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Yes, I'm having issues with it as well. If I try to go back and edit a pos for more material quite often I can't get at the bottom of my message to add more either. Meh, what can one do...

Well, I guess you could start your own forum. With blackjack, and hookers. In fact, forget the forum.

But I'm not as great as Bender, so I'll just stick with this one, for all its minor problems.

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8 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Well, I guess you could start your own forum. With blackjack, and hookers. In fact, forget the forum.

But I'm not as great as Bender, so I'll just stick with this one, for all its minor problems.

Ok, you completely lost me with that one. I have no idea why you would say that. Nor do I know what a "Bender" is.

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